Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by HeroR » Mon May 10, 2021 10:45 am

radicalzenigma wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:42 am
Thanos wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:38 pm
MCDaveG wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:57 pm Would be nice to get past the Epilogue, as I have fatigue from Goten and Trunks being kids and threats that don't matter.
Let Goten and Trunks be useless but with updated designs and let's see Uub and Pan and other characters being older, without Vegeta growing kingstache.
We are getting very close to the 30-year mark of the kids’ debut. That was fine when the series had been over for so long, but Battle of Gods released nearly a decade ago and they even seem to shrink slightly with the passage of time. I wish Toriyama would just retcon the manga ending altogether. Not to mention Uub would have surely lost potential relevance by now, only being the reincarnation of Buu who is hardly the be-all end-all final boss that he once was. Maybe they can work in some kind of Whis training/god power with him but as it stands so much has happened since Buu it seems pretty irrelevant now.
I see Dragon Ball in the same place as where the new LOTR series is about to be. They can't touch anything already written and they have to stay well away from anything from the trilogy, but I get this because Tolkien is dead and now longer able to write anything new. However, in Dragon Ball's case, Toriyama is still here, why can't we get out of this small 10-year gap and progress past EoZ? At this point there's not a lot left of time left till the end of Z and there's already some inconsistencies. I remember in EoZ Bulma and/or Vegeta mentioning they haven't seen Goku in 5 years. As of the latest manga chapter we're in Age 780 potentially 781. EoZ happens in 784, so that 5 year line can no longer be true.
Because Toriyama doesn't want to and the last time they did, we got GT and Toei doesn't want a repeat of that.

And honestly, why do people care so much about Bulma's five years line? Like, does it change anything if she said it or not?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by Grimlock » Mon May 10, 2021 10:58 am

Yes, it means that if they ever decide to take that line into consideration we can get "stories" set in AGE 784 or beyond. Which is something that should have already happened.

Then again, when was the last time they saw each other? Was it in Dragon Ball Super Broly? Did they meet each other in Moro saga? If the answer is "yes" and "no" respectively, then everything is still fine, I guess.

But how long can they keep cramming "stories" without featuring Goku and Bulma in the same place?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 10, 2021 11:05 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:22 am What kinds of new antagonist archetypes would you like to see this time? One recurring thing in Super is that most of the antagonists lean on the "anti-villainous" side, having less evil intentions than the majority of the original series' villains. Let's run it down:
  • Beerus
-- Not evil, more of an inscrutable force-of-nature who just wants to find a worthy rival and live the hedonistic life. Quickly becomes friends with the gang.
  • Freeza
-- Pure evil as always, but has a personal vendetta against Goku and gradually learns some sense of comradery with him across later arcs.
  • Champa and Team Universe 6
-- Basically "the rival sports team" as Dragon Ball characters. Most of them are actually good guys (except Frost in the anime), and Hit may be an assassin but he proves to be an honourable adversary.
  • Zamasu
-- Has a negative character arc as we see him descend into genocidal villainy, though thanks to timey-wimey bullshit we also have the mystery of Goku Black which forms a huge part of his initial intrigue.
  • Jiren
-- Not innately villainous at all (in the manga, at least), actually a superhero in his own dimension, but he represents an insurmountable wall for Goku to conquer. Also has an arc of learning to grow from his own selfishness and trust others.
  • Zeno (and the Tournament of Power in general)
-- Besides Jiren, the main antagonist of the Universe Survival arc is the setting of the Tournament of Power itself, and how Zeno callously pits all the universes' reluctant champions against each other in this chaotic free-for-all frenzy.
  • Broly (and Paragus)
-- Broly subverts the expectation of being pure evil as he's just misunderstood and coerced into his father's revenge scheme. Paragus also represents a fallen hero archetype, as his mission to save Broly starts off as noble but while isolated on Vampa he quickly gets corrupted and driven insane by his grudge against the Vegetas.
  • Moro
-- Basically the only straightforward "pure evil" enemy in Super so far.
  • Granola (?)
-- While his fate is still on the cards, Granola seems to be set up as another negative character arc of him being consumed by his need for revenge.
  • The Heeters
-- These guys are an interesting new breed, being ambitious Machiavellian types looking to rule the universe through knowledge and political manoeuvring.

What could be next, I wonder?
Most of the people you listed aren't even villains. Beerus, Champa, Hit, Jiren, Broly, Zeno are pretty generic and standard antagonists, I wouldn't call any of them anti-villains since they are so simplistic.

Zamasu is what every DB villain should be, not just almighty and smart but also morally grey/complex. Granolah is almighty and morally grey/complex but not smart, he acts like a petulant child. The Heeters are smart but they are not morally grey/complex, they seem like generic bad guys, so yawn. Same thing for Paragus.

I don't even want to talk about Moro because he was straight up DBZ movie-tier villain.

So Yeah if they create a new villain I hope they will at least bother to give them some kind of ideology/philosophy. And write it decently, not in a 2 minutes-long flashback like Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by precita » Mon May 10, 2021 11:13 am

The unexpected character likely excludes the main cast, Broly, or most Super characters. They wouldn't be unexpected, if say Hit or Caulifa or whomever appeared in this movie.

Unfortunately I really do think it'll be another movie or GT character canonized, because I can't think of anything else.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by HeroR » Mon May 10, 2021 11:14 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:05 am
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:22 am What kinds of new antagonist archetypes would you like to see this time? One recurring thing in Super is that most of the antagonists lean on the "anti-villainous" side, having less evil intentions than the majority of the original series' villains. Let's run it down:
  • Beerus
-- Not evil, more of an inscrutable force-of-nature who just wants to find a worthy rival and live the hedonistic life. Quickly becomes friends with the gang.
  • Freeza
-- Pure evil as always, but has a personal vendetta against Goku and gradually learns some sense of comradery with him across later arcs.
  • Champa and Team Universe 6
-- Basically "the rival sports team" as Dragon Ball characters. Most of them are actually good guys (except Frost in the anime), and Hit may be an assassin but he proves to be an honourable adversary.
  • Zamasu
-- Has a negative character arc as we see him descend into genocidal villainy, though thanks to timey-wimey bullshit we also have the mystery of Goku Black which forms a huge part of his initial intrigue.
  • Jiren
-- Not innately villainous at all (in the manga, at least), actually a superhero in his own dimension, but he represents an insurmountable wall for Goku to conquer. Also has an arc of learning to grow from his own selfishness and trust others.
  • Zeno (and the Tournament of Power in general)
-- Besides Jiren, the main antagonist of the Universe Survival arc is the setting of the Tournament of Power itself, and how Zeno callously pits all the universes' reluctant champions against each other in this chaotic free-for-all frenzy.
  • Broly (and Paragus)
-- Broly subverts the expectation of being pure evil as he's just misunderstood and coerced into his father's revenge scheme. Paragus also represents a fallen hero archetype, as his mission to save Broly starts off as noble but while isolated on Vampa he quickly gets corrupted and driven insane by his grudge against the Vegetas.
  • Moro
-- Basically the only straightforward "pure evil" enemy in Super so far.
  • Granola (?)
-- While his fate is still on the cards, Granola seems to be set up as another negative character arc of him being consumed by his need for revenge.
  • The Heeters
-- These guys are an interesting new breed, being ambitious Machiavellian types looking to rule the universe through knowledge and political manoeuvring.

What could be next, I wonder?
Most of the people you listed aren't even villains. Beerus, Champa, Hit, Jiren, Broly, Zeno are pretty generic and standard antagonists, I wouldn't call any of them anti-villains since they are so simplistic.

Zamasu is what every DB villain should be, not just almighty and smart but also morally grey/complex. Granolah is almighty and morally grey/complex but not smart, he acts like a petulant child. The Heeters are smart but they are not morally grey/complex, they seem like generic bad guys, so yawn. Same thing for Paragus.

I don't even want to talk about Moro because he was straight up DBZ movie-tier villain.

So Yeah if they create a new villain I hope they will at least bother to give them some kind of ideology/philosophy. And write it decently, not in a 2 minutes-long flashback like Jiren.

Being simple has nothing to do with someone being an anti-villain or not. And they're not anti-villains. They're just antagonists. And anti-villain is:

"An Anti-Villain is the opposite of an Anti-Hero — a character with heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues who is ultimately the villain. Their desired ends are mostly good, but their means of getting there range from evil to undesirable."

In other words, only Zamasu would fit anti-villain. Jiren is just an ass. That and Zamasu wasn't morally grey or even that complex. He was an egomaniac who used his own justice to justify his hatred and his mass-murder. While I liked Zamasu, not make him more complex than he actually is. Zamasu in many ways is just a standard JRPG villain. Or to put it another way, Zamasu is a standard Dragon Ball villain, but he coats his bad acts as righteous.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 10, 2021 11:24 am

HeroR wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:14 am Being simple has nothing to do with someone being an anti-villain or not.
Reread the definition of Anti-villain and tell me if a simplistic character like Broly or Champa could ever fit that definition.
That and Zamasu wasn't morally grey or even that complex. He was an egomaniac who used his own justice to justify his hatred and his mass-murder. While I liked Zamasu, not make him more complex than he actually is. Zamasu in many ways is just a standard JRPG villain. Or to put it another way, Zamasu is a standard Dragon Ball villain, but he coats his bad acts as righteous.
What you say defies what Toriyama thinks, who literally said Zamasu is a unique/special DB villain as he is complex and presents a moral dilemma.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by HeroR » Mon May 10, 2021 11:38 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:24 am
HeroR wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:14 am Being simple has nothing to do with someone being an anti-villain or not.
Reread the definition of Anti-villain and tell me if a simplistic character like Broly or Champa could ever fit that definition.
That and Zamasu wasn't morally grey or even that complex. He was an egomaniac who used his own justice to justify his hatred and his mass-murder. While I liked Zamasu, not make him more complex than he actually is. Zamasu in many ways is just a standard JRPG villain. Or to put it another way, Zamasu is a standard Dragon Ball villain, but he coats his bad acts as righteous.
What you say defies what Toriyama thinks, who literally said Zamasu is a unique/special DB villain as he is complex and presents a moral dilemma.
I literally said that neither are anti-villain: "And they're not anti-villains. They're just antagonists." Which doesn't even have anything to do with being simple. Because Champa is just a standard rival to Beerus and Broly is a weapon used and abused by those around him.

And why should I care what Toriyama's think? Zamasu is only 'complex' by the standard Dragon Ball villain, which even Toriyama said he writes villains who are evil for evil sake and Zamasu was really his first time making a villain who had a little more to them than that. But in the end, Zamasu still isn't a complex villain. He's just a JRPG villain in Dragon Ball. He's only appears complex because Dragon Ball has very shallow villains.

In terms of a villains, Paragus is more complex than Zamasu. Because he started out a Saiyan trying to save his son who was sent to a death world out of jealousy to a king that he saw as his friend, but after being stranded on said death world for 40 something years, lost his way and started to see his son as a weapon for his revenge and abused him. Only in the end when he thought Broly would be killed did he somewhat became the man who saw at the beginning of the movie. And despite Paragus being an abusive SOB, he still showed signs that he did care about Broly.
Last edited by HeroR on Mon May 10, 2021 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Mon May 10, 2021 11:47 am

Upon reading the first few pages of comments, my thinking and feeling on the new movie regarding the villian(s) is that it's best to be original. Less fan service, more creative. Going by the translation from Toriyama's comment, it seems we may get that.

In the years of Dragon Ball's revival, we have had nothing but fanservices, besides Beerus and Zamasu, obviously. One of Dragon Ball's strongest traits has always been the original characters, and it's better to go that route. That means no resurrection of the past characters. Thankfully the manga does that justice, but on the animation side of things, they need to do better.

The priority should be on narrative and characters. Do something to further develop them. Take risks if you have to. Not in term of GT's risk taking, but something of that small scale.

It will be interesting to see what's cooking from here on in months leading up to the theatrical release.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon May 10, 2021 11:48 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:05 am
Most of the people you listed aren't even villains. Beerus, Champa, Hit, Jiren, Broly, Zeno are pretty generic and standard antagonists, I wouldn't call any of them anti-villains since they are so simplistic.

Zamasu is what every DB villain should be, not just almighty and smart but also morally grey/complex. Granolah is almighty and morally grey/complex but not smart, he acts like a petulant child. The Heeters are smart but they are not morally grey/complex, they seem like generic bad guys, so yawn. Same thing for Paragus.

I don't even want to talk about Moro because he was straight up DBZ movie-tier villain.

So Yeah if they create a new villain I hope they will at least bother to give them some kind of ideology/philosophy. And write it decently, not in a 2 minutes-long flashback like Jiren.
I didn't claim they were all villains, I said they were antagonists, which is true. I feel like "anti-villain" is appropriate because I wouldn't call them purely evil like Taopaipai, Piccolo Daimao or Cell. Most of them have different methods or motivations compared to what we're used to seeing in Dragon Ball and they interact with the narrative in interesting ways. I hope we get a new antagonist who breaks the mould in a similar fashion.

I don't get your beef with Granola, how is he like a petulant child?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Mon May 10, 2021 11:50 am

Yuji wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:16 am Perhaps a "slightly unexpected character" means only that someone like Gohan or Piccolo, someone from the side cast, gets a bigger role than usual in modern Toriyama stories. Perhaps it's not indicating necessarily the canonization of an old character or the return of a defunct one.
This is certainly a possibility. I'd love to see Piccolo learn a new technique or power up that would put him in the same tier as Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by HeroR » Mon May 10, 2021 11:51 am

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:47 am Upon reading the first few pages of comments, my thinking and feeling on the new movie regarding the villian(s) is that it's best to be original. Less fan service, more creative. Going by the translation from Toriyama's comment, it seems we may get that.

In the years of Dragon Ball's revival, we have had nothing but fanservices, besides Beerus and Zamasu, obviously. One of Dragon Ball's strongest traits has always been the original characters, and it's better to go that route. That means no resurrection of the past characters. Thankfully the manga does that justice, but on the animation side of things, they need to do better.

The priority should be on narrative and characters. Do something to further develop them. Take risks if you have to. Not in term of GT's risk taking, but something of that small scale.

It will be interesting to see what's cooking from here on in months leading up to the theatrical release.
How were Champa and Jiren fanservice and Moro was several Dragon Ball villains merged into one. Even Planet Moro was a smaller scale version of Infinite Zamasu.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:48 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:05 am
Most of the people you listed aren't even villains. Beerus, Champa, Hit, Jiren, Broly, Zeno are pretty generic and standard antagonists, I wouldn't call any of them anti-villains since they are so simplistic.

Zamasu is what every DB villain should be, not just almighty and smart but also morally grey/complex. Granolah is almighty and morally grey/complex but not smart, he acts like a petulant child. The Heeters are smart but they are not morally grey/complex, they seem like generic bad guys, so yawn. Same thing for Paragus.

I don't even want to talk about Moro because he was straight up DBZ movie-tier villain.

So Yeah if they create a new villain I hope they will at least bother to give them some kind of ideology/philosophy. And write it decently, not in a 2 minutes-long flashback like Jiren.
I didn't claim they were all villains, I said they were antagonists, which is true. I feel like "anti-villain" is appropriate because I wouldn't call them purely evil like Taopaipai, Piccolo Daimao or Cell. Most of them have different methods or motivations compared to what we're used to seeing in Dragon Ball and they interact with the narrative in interesting ways. I hope we get a new antagonist who breaks the mould in a similar fashion.

I don't get your beef with Granola, how is he like a petulant child?

Except that isn't the definition of an anti-villain. They're just antagonists, against the heroes because of the situation. Zamasu is actually closer to an anti-villain.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Mon May 10, 2021 12:06 pm

HeroR wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:51 am
DragonBalllKaiHD wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:47 am Upon reading the first few pages of comments, my thinking and feeling on the new movie regarding the villian(s) is that it's best to be original. Less fan service, more creative. Going by the translation from Toriyama's comment, it seems we may get that.

In the years of Dragon Ball's revival, we have had nothing but fanservices, besides Beerus and Zamasu, obviously. One of Dragon Ball's strongest traits has always been the original characters, and it's better to go that route. That means no resurrection of the past characters. Thankfully the manga does that justice, but on the animation side of things, they need to do better.

The priority should be on narrative and characters. Do something to further develop them. Take risks if you have to. Not in term of GT's risk taking, but something of that small scale.

It will be interesting to see what's cooking from here on in months leading up to the theatrical release.
How were Champa and Jiren fanservice and Moro was several Dragon Ball villains merged into one. Even Planet Moro was a smaller scale version of Infinite Zamasu.
Champa isn't really a villain, more so a character who bickers with his brother. Jiren was just there for Goku's transformation. It feels too fanservicey. Moro, on other hand, feels like an original character. Sure his motive is generic, but he presented a new challenge for the heroes that they had never faced before. He drained their energy with magic and absorbed the planets' life energy to regain his power and youth. That's far more interesting than RoF and ToP arcs.

Edit: I enjoyed Hit as a character. Maybe the unexpected character is him? I don't mind if they use him more.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 10, 2021 12:40 pm

HeroR wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:38 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:24 am
HeroR wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:14 am Being simple has nothing to do with someone being an anti-villain or not.
Reread the definition of Anti-villain and tell me if a simplistic character like Broly or Champa could ever fit that definition.
That and Zamasu wasn't morally grey or even that complex. He was an egomaniac who used his own justice to justify his hatred and his mass-murder. While I liked Zamasu, not make him more complex than he actually is. Zamasu in many ways is just a standard JRPG villain. Or to put it another way, Zamasu is a standard Dragon Ball villain, but he coats his bad acts as righteous.
What you say defies what Toriyama thinks, who literally said Zamasu is a unique/special DB villain as he is complex and presents a moral dilemma.
I literally said that neither are anti-villain: "And they're not anti-villains. They're just antagonists." Which doesn't even have anything to do with being simple. Because Champa is just a standard rival to Beerus and Broly is a weapon used and abused by those around him.
That's right, they're simple characters. Champa is literally just a fat Beerus and doesn't have anything unique going on for him, Broly has a sad backstory but aside from that he's very bland. He probably won't even be relevant anymore in the story, since his sole character shtick was being "the strongest", which he no longer is.
And why should I care what Toriyama's think?
Because he's the author who created the character and I don't believe in the concept of "Death of the Author".
Zamasu is only 'complex' by the standard Dragon Ball villain, which even Toriyama said he writes villains who are evil for evil sake and Zamasu was really his first time making a villain who had a little more to them than that. But in the end, Zamasu still isn't a complex villain. He's just a JRPG villain in Dragon Ball. He's only appears complex because Dragon Ball has very shallow villains.
He's a very complex character, sadly most people don't go beyond the "HE KILLED PEOPLE!!!" argument and often misinterpret his reasons for hating mortals.
In terms of a villains, Paragus is more complex than Zamasu. Because he started out a Saiyan trying to save his son who was sent to a death world out of jealousy to a king that he saw as his friend, but after being stranded on said death world for 40 something years, lost his way and started to see his son as a weapon for his revenge and abused him. Only in the end when he thought Broly would be killed did he somewhat became the man who saw at the beginning of the movie. And despite Paragus being an abusive SOB, he still showed signs that he did care about Broly.
Nothing about Paragus is complex, the man abused his son and the story never tries to portray him differently. Meanwhile with Zamasu we have both Gowasu and Trunks agreeing with some of his points.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:48 am I don't get your beef with Granola, how is he like a petulant child?
Because as soon as he heard that Frieza was still alive, he resorted to using the Dragon Balls to become "the strongest", without even hesitating and thinking for a moment. Unlike Zamasu who decided to take action only after witnessing countless different cases that proved his point. Granolah strikes me as a brat who doesn't think things through, also the Heeters will 100% fuck him over.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by HeroR » Mon May 10, 2021 1:29 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:06 pm
HeroR wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:51 am
DragonBalllKaiHD wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:47 am Upon reading the first few pages of comments, my thinking and feeling on the new movie regarding the villian(s) is that it's best to be original. Less fan service, more creative. Going by the translation from Toriyama's comment, it seems we may get that.

In the years of Dragon Ball's revival, we have had nothing but fanservices, besides Beerus and Zamasu, obviously. One of Dragon Ball's strongest traits has always been the original characters, and it's better to go that route. That means no resurrection of the past characters. Thankfully the manga does that justice, but on the animation side of things, they need to do better.

The priority should be on narrative and characters. Do something to further develop them. Take risks if you have to. Not in term of GT's risk taking, but something of that small scale.

It will be interesting to see what's cooking from here on in months leading up to the theatrical release.
How were Champa and Jiren fanservice and Moro was several Dragon Ball villains merged into one. Even Planet Moro was a smaller scale version of Infinite Zamasu.
Champa isn't really a villain, more so a character who bickers with his brother. Jiren was just there for Goku's transformation. It feels too fanservicey. Moro, on other hand, feels like an original character. Sure his motive is generic, but he presented a new challenge for the heroes that they had never faced before. He drained their energy with magic and absorbed the planets' life energy to regain his power and youth. That's far more interesting than RoF and ToP arcs.

Edit: I enjoyed Hit as a character. Maybe the unexpected character is him? I don't mind if they use him more.
But Jiren himself wasn't fanservice. If anything, he was the opposite since people say he was boring.

Moro wanting his youth back is King Piccolo. Even his energy drain was done by Androids 19 and 20. Outside of his original design, there is really nothing original Moro. He's a Dragon Ball greatest hits villain.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:40 pm
HeroR wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:38 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:24 am

Reread the definition of Anti-villain and tell me if a simplistic character like Broly or Champa could ever fit that definition.



What you say defies what Toriyama thinks, who literally said Zamasu is a unique/special DB villain as he is complex and presents a moral dilemma.
I literally said that neither are anti-villain: "And they're not anti-villains. They're just antagonists." Which doesn't even have anything to do with being simple. Because Champa is just a standard rival to Beerus and Broly is a weapon used and abused by those around him.
That's right, they're simple characters. Champa is literally just a fat Beerus and doesn't have anything unique going on for him, Broly has a sad backstory but aside from that he's very bland. He probably won't even be relevant anymore in the story, since his sole character shtick was being "the strongest", which he no longer is.
And why should I care what Toriyama's think?
Because he's the author who created the character and I don't believe in the concept of "Death of the Author".
Zamasu is only 'complex' by the standard Dragon Ball villain, which even Toriyama said he writes villains who are evil for evil sake and Zamasu was really his first time making a villain who had a little more to them than that. But in the end, Zamasu still isn't a complex villain. He's just a JRPG villain in Dragon Ball. He's only appears complex because Dragon Ball has very shallow villains.
He's a very complex character, sadly most people don't go beyond the "HE KILLED PEOPLE!!!" argument and often misinterpret his reasons for hating mortals.
In terms of a villains, Paragus is more complex than Zamasu. Because he started out a Saiyan trying to save his son who was sent to a death world out of jealousy to a king that he saw as his friend, but after being stranded on said death world for 40 something years, lost his way and started to see his son as a weapon for his revenge and abused him. Only in the end when he thought Broly would be killed did he somewhat became the man who saw at the beginning of the movie. And despite Paragus being an abusive SOB, he still showed signs that he did care about Broly.
Nothing about Paragus is complex, the man abused his son and the story never tries to portray him differently. Meanwhile with Zamasu we have both Gowasu and Trunks agreeing with some of his points.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:48 am I don't get your beef with Granola, how is he like a petulant child?
Because as soon as he heard that Frieza was still alive, he resorted to using the Dragon Balls to become "the strongest", without even hesitating and thinking for a moment. Unlike Zamasu who decided to take action only after witnessing countless different cases that proved his point. Granolah strikes me as a brat who doesn't think things through, also the Heeters will 100% fuck him over.
This is just false. Despite being Beerus' twin, they're not the same character. Beerus has a million in half berserk buttons and was going to destroy the Earth over pudding. Champa despite being more boorish was overall nicer than Beerus, doesn't destroy stuff just cause, and actually shown to be able to plan ahead more than Beerus when he was the one who gave Kale and Cali Potara earrings.

Toriyama can say whatever he wants, but Zamasu isn't complex. He's only complex in terms of how shallow the other villains before him were.

He's really not. His own 'justice' is just a thin excuse to justify him murdering people that he deemed undesirable, including his own teacher and his fellow gods. And when he was called out on this, he basically just said 'but justice'. He's like Light from Death Note who came up with all sorts of reasons for his actions and Near shot them all down with one simple statement in the manga: "You're just a mass-murderer". And that exactly what Zamasu was. He was just a mass-murderer, nothing more, nothing less. The only real different between him and Frieza and Zamasu tries to excuse and justify his actions.

Trunks never agreed with Zamasu. Trunks told Zamasu to STFU every time he opened his mouth and Gowaru only agreed with Zamasu with mortals being flawed. He then pointed out that the gods weren't perfect either. Which Zamasu disagree with, but murder the gods because they were wrong, so the gods were flawed, but Zamasu never got this hypocrisy.

As for Paragus, the movie showed that Paragus had good motives trying to save his son and showing how King Vegeta betrayed him. And why his abused was brought up, Paragus said "you have no idea what we've been through". Which is a strong point since him and Broly was on a terrible planet for 40 years to the point that Broly didn't even know what water was. And in the end, Paragus realized what he has done to his child, but is killed before he could repent for his actions.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 10, 2021 2:01 pm

HeroR wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:29 pm

This is just false. Despite being Beerus' twin, they're not the same character. Beerus has a million in half berserk buttons and was going to destroy the Earth over pudding. Champa despite being more boorish was overall nicer than Beerus, doesn't destroy stuff just cause, and actually shown to be able to plan ahead more than Beerus when he was the one who gave Kale and Cali Potara earrings.
Like when he attempted to erase Hit and his teammates from existence (so they'd be denied the afterlife too) just because they lost a stupid game? Yeah, he's such a nice guy.
He's really not. His own 'justice' is just a thin excuse to justify him murdering people that he deemed undesirable, including his own teacher and his fellow gods. And when he was called out on this, he basically just said 'but justice'.
No, he admitted that he killed the other Gods because they couldn't understand his vision and would try to stop him. He's very blunt about his reasons for killing the other Gods. And Yes, Zamasu has a twisted idea of justice, that's what makes him complex. What you think doesn't make him complex, is precisely what makes him complex and compelling. The fact that he thinks he's doing the right thing by punishing mortals, which he sees as criminals.

The argument that you and others use is "Zamasu is not complex, he's just the first DB villain who thinks he's doing the right thing", but that's precisely what makes him complex. Vegeta, Frieza, Cell, Buu never cared about doing the right thing.
"You're just a mass-murderer"
So then following your logic Vegeta was a chaotic evil villain and never stopped being one, right? Since he killed so many innocents.
Trunks never agreed with Zamasu. Trunks told Zamasu to STFU every time he opened his mouth and Gowaru only agreed with Zamasu with mortals being flawed. He then pointed out that the gods weren't perfect either.
Trunks agreed with Zamasu that he was a sinner (he was basically left speechless after Zamasu argued that Trunks committed a crime by time travelling, which he did), Gowasu agreed with Zamasu that Trunks was a fool for travelling through time.

The story shows us that some of Zamasu's points are more than valid, meanwhile the story never pretends that any of Paragus' "points" are valid. Paragus doesn't even have a philosophy, he's just an abusive father lol. Saving his son is not a philosophy, it's his son who is also a freak of nature. It's just logic to save him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 10, 2021 2:07 pm

HeroR wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:38 am In terms of a villains, Paragus is more complex than Zamasu. Because he started out a Saiyan trying to save his son who was sent to a death world out of jealousy to a king that he saw as his friend, but after being stranded on said death world for 40 something years, lost his way and started to see his son as a weapon for his revenge and abused him. Only in the end when he thought Broly would be killed did he somewhat became the man who saw at the beginning of the movie. And despite Paragus being an abusive SOB, he still showed signs that he did care about Broly.
I think this is a good analysis of Paragus' character. He starts as a good, devoted father, the circumstances and the passage of time make him bitter and willing to use his son as a weapon because he is consumed by vengeance, and as soon as he sees his son isn't that big of a weapon, his inner conflict arises, he knows his son might die, and there's nothing he can he do. Freeza isn't going to call him back. A victim turned villain, turned victim again...

Zamasu on the other hand, was always a bad seed, since his introduction at least, he had no inner conflict, only how the story treated it, but there were no doubts in his mind. There was never a contradiction in his mind, he was always certain of how he felt about mortals and what to do about it, he only grows more certain. He was never "oh no, wait, maybe if ningen were left to their devices... in a given positive environment.." NO. Fuck'em all. The complex part comes from him having a job that is the opposite of what he believes, but he, himself, never was conflicted about how he felt.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022! (Toriyama Scripting!)

Post by IntangibleFancy » Mon May 10, 2021 2:14 pm

Am I forgetting about an event where they can reveal who the featured character(s) are, or do we have to wait until the end of the year for Jump Festa?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon May 10, 2021 2:31 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:49 pm What if they revive Cell now? lol
I always had a cool idea of a Cell cult that exist in the Dragon Ball world. You have a group of people that believe that he is a god, and they use the Dragon Balls to wish him back. Other than that, I can't think anyone would win

Cell was also shown in the recent DB Heroes trailer with a Halo on his head. It's possible that they could be teasing him for the upcoming movie.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Mon May 10, 2021 2:54 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:31 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:49 pm What if they revive Cell now? lol
I always had a cool idea of a Cell cult that exist in the Dragon Ball world. You have a group of people that believe that he is a god, and they use the Dragon Balls to wish him back. Other than that, I can't think anyone would win

Cell was also shown in the recent DB Heroes trailer with a Halo on his head. It's possible that they could be teasing him for the upcoming movie.
The Cell Jrs could probably be used to recreate Cell without having to wish him back, and he could even be upgraded with DNA from Moro and Broly, but I hope it doesn't happen unless it's a side story and Gohan or Gotenks deal with him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Coming 2022?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 10, 2021 2:55 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:31 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:49 pm What if they revive Cell now? lol
I always had a cool idea of a Cell cult that exist in the Dragon Ball world. You have a group of people that believe that he is a god, and they use the Dragon Balls to wish him back. Other than that, I can't think anyone would win

Cell was also shown in the recent DB Heroes trailer with a Halo on his head. It's possible that they could be teasing him for the upcoming movie.
Wouldn’t that just be a rehash of RF?

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