Rebel Instinct wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 1:57 am
This will be the one and only response I make on this subject. I will not be responding to any more replies, as I refuse to be dragged into yet another fruitless, unending internet debate. This is merely to clarify/expand upon the intent of my prior comment.
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You never explicitly mentioned the word "canon", no. However, when you keep making remarks like:
There’s really nothing suggesting that the anime will adapt the manga if it returns.
People keep saying that yet Toriyama made literally no designs, not even for Granolah. Nor is the arc acknowledged to exist anywhere.
it’s odd that the latest story arc is Toriyama drafted yet Toriyama literally did no designs even for the main characters despite him doing so in every story arc in Super nor does it get any major advisement for being Toriyama’s work unlike everything Toriyama ever breaths on.
outside of small snippets, the manga barely exists.
What exactly are you expecting readers to get out of it? You never say the word "non-canon" or "illegitimate", but you use every other word and description there is to imply that it is. None of these comments you've made are labels or descriptions you give a piece of accepted, legitimate or canonical material. You're casting as much doubt as humanly possible on the idea. You say that there's nothing suggesting that the anime will adapt the manga going forward, but then where would that leave the manga exactly? If it apparently isn't being acknowledged by anyone of import, hardly exists, barely has Toriyama's involvement and likely won't be adapted into the anime, that doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of canonicity now does it?
If you're not trying to imply that the manga's current (or previous) arc isn't valid/canon, then what exactly
are you getting at? If all these dismissive remarks aren't intended to imply a lack of validity, then what are they for? What is the point you're trying to make?
I follow Herms and read the original translation.
Then you'd have no reason to cast doubt on Toriyama's involvement in this latest manga arc and have absolutely no reason to be debating others on the level of said involvement. Yet despite this, you've been actively arguing against this very notion on the last couple pages. Odd that you'd acknowledge having read the interview that confirms Toriyama's direct involvement and then still go about contradicting the idea anyway... That is, unless, you
don't believe Toriyama is very involved in the creation of this arc and that the interview is somehow untruthful in some way. But then, how would you know that? What reason would you have to intentionally cast doubt on the interview unless you thought you knew better?
Even weirder that I haven’t talked about the manga in months, yet you act like I regularly do.
What's really weird is that you act like just because you haven't talked about it in a while, that means any prior comments you made on the subject no longer apply. It doesn't matter how long you've been away - the second you came back, you picked up exactly where you left off. Making the same dismissive remarks about the same subjects in the same ways you always have. It's not like anything has changed. Your comments aren't made in a vacuum. Everyone has patterns, tendencies and habits. Over time, others will naturally pick up on and remember those habits. Just because you haven't said anything for a while. doesn't mean everyone will just forget the past. You've been a vocal detractor of the manga for ages, I'm not going to disregard that valuable context in light of you're most recent comments. That context helps inform your typical agendas and biases.
If you had no intention of a conversation, then why did you even respond?
Because I already know you aren't going to change your mind. If after all this time and all the arguments you've had on the subject over the years haven't changed your mind, what hope do I have? If anything, my comment was less for you and more for other readers following this thread. You're making claims that don't quite match up with reality and I'd hate for others to get the wrong idea about things. And hey, if by some miracle you decided to change your mind on the matter while I'm at it, then that'd be a bonus.
You stated and/or implied several falsehoods with your comments and I wanted to refute them. No more, no less.
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"Implying that Toriyama is barely involved in the creation of this arc."
Yes he is. Demonstratively so. We have irrefutable stalemates from an official source. According to those statements, he is even indicated to be
even more heavily involved in the drafting of this arc than usual.
"The manga receives no advertising or "hype" for its material/the manga barely exists or is acknowledged by official sources."
Incorrect. The manga has heaps of "hype" built up through V-Jump cover art, creator interviews, drafts uploaded to the official website in order to build anticipation and each new chapter receives a specifically crafted hype trailer every month. We've even been told in a separate interview that the lack of merch and videogame tie-ins is due to a lack of an animated adaptation - as is the industry standard for nearly every other manga/anime franchise that has ever existed, with only very
very rare exceptions to the contrary.
basically call me an idiot, then act like you’re taking the higher ground.
I never called you an idiot. If anything, I was saying you're far too apathetic or stubborn to talk about the subject material in good faith. As for moral high ground, I claim no such thing. There's no morality in disputing ill-founded discussion. An actively derogatory and dismissive attitude is certainly no fertile breeding ground for good faith discourse. Your marked distaste for the material in question and subsequent arguments against its legitimacy, coupled with a history of such unflattering commentary leads me to believe you'd be inclined to argue in bad faith regarding the DBS manga and whatever future it may have with the rest of the series going forward. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I wasn’t even talking to you
Anyone can talk to anyone at any time for any reason. No one needs your permission in order to talk to you. Acting as if choosing to engage with you uninvited is unnatural or offensive in any way is baffling. Posts and replies are the literal backbone of online discourse. You have most certainly responded to other users' comments unprovoked without invitation - as has literally anyone else on the internet. Why get bent out of shape if I do the same? Your prior debate is not a closed private loop. Anyone is allowed to engage with it at any time. This is not unusual. You've surely done the same dozens of times.
As I've said, I don't harbor any foolish illusions of any of this changing your mind. I'm only responding for the sake of clarity. I don't really care if you continue believing what you believe. It doesn't matter. Anyone else can read this exchange and come to their own conclusions. These comments are mainly for the sake of general reader discourse or to act as a platform for others to make their own points. Whoever they affect in the end is up to the individual.
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As a semi-related aside, if anyone else reading is wondering:
If I seem bitter, it's because the fandom has made me so. The day in, day out never-ending influx of misinformation, egotism, dismissiveness, hatred, selfishness, hypocrisy and arrogance often leaves me very frustrated with this fandom. If I seem short with people, it's for these reasons. Naturally, I don't try to make a habit of it by any means, but if something rankles my fur, I'm gonna address it. I do love this franchise and I'm always going to stick around and observe all the goings on, regardless of whether or not I choose to actively engage.
Frankly, I have little patience for beating around the bush these days, especially with such an often deliberately obtuse fanbase. So if I come off as a little abrasive, forgive me. I just want to get straight to the point and make sure that I make said point in no uncertain terms. I have no interest in the constant multi-page bickering wars and thus, will not pursue them. I will make my point (with perhaps one or two clarifying follow-ups) and bow out. I simply do not have the energy for anything more.
You say this as you say you wouldn't response before, but okay.
That has nothing to do with 'canon'. That has to do that isn't really odd that an arc is stated be drafted by Toriyama, yet no one can answer why he didn't do any designs not even for Granola when every previous antagonist was created by Toriyama. That and the lack of advisement and merch for a Toriyama created anything is really odd. People keep saying 'they're waiting for the anime' but that makes little sense. Japan is far more manga-centric than anime-centric, so they're not going to wait several years to start making money off a Toriyama's creation for an anime that hasn't been schedule to return. Even if it's small stuff like putting characters in Dragon Ball Heroes or Dokkan.
I don't know where the manga is since the manga because it's almost never acknowledge to exist. Nothing from Moro has ever got acknowledged anywhere, not even Dragon Ball Heroes which is basically official fanfiction and there doesn't appear to be anything related to Moro coming out despite the arc being finish and the Japanese general apathetic towards spoilers if they were concern about the anime. And even if we ignore the Moro stuff, the manga only gets subtile nods like Haki Goku and Roshi being acknowledge by Jiren. They won't even do something simple like Super Saiyan Black and when Broly was coming out, they claimed this was the first time Vegeta was using Super Saiyan God despite him having Super Saiyan God in the manga for years. So for an official continuation after the anime ended, they are choosing not to make any money off of it outside of the manga sells itself. Which makes little sense since manga sells has never been the life blood of Dragon Ball and it isn't like the Super manga sell gangbusters. So far, most of Super's sells are coming from them mooching off the anime.
Toriyama has always been involved in the manga, so that is nothing new. Even Moro has some of his input like Merus being angel. And that isn't what I debated. I literally said 'isn't it odd that Toriyama drafted a story, yet he did no character designs and the general lack of hype around the project compared to everything else with Toriyama's name on it'. Which is again something no one can seem to answer.
Do I believe Toriyama is very involved, well he isn't involved enough to make character designs, that's for sure. Which is strange considering he did minor stuff like creating a character Dragon Ball Legends, FighterZ, and Kakarot, yet he couldn't be bother to design Granola.
If you know I wasn't going to change my mind, why did come into a conversation that you weren't even a part of and was honestly very civil? And over the years? I am almost certain that I barely reply to you and I tend to remember people I get into long debates with. So do you mean you read my posts with others? Which is odd since I barely talk about the manga outside of the writing.
What falsehoods? I literally stated we don't know if the anime will adapt the manga, which no one knows. I stated Toriyama didn't do any character designs for the latest arc, which is also true. I stated that this arc didn't get much hype, which you can debate, but compared to other Toriyama involved stuff Granola only got about as much as Moro. For reference, the vast majority of Dragon Ball fans don't know what is happening in the manga because they don't follow it or know it exists, and the manga isn't super popular in Japan either. You're the one who assumed that I said 'Toriyama has no involved with the manga' which wasn't what I said.
More involved than usual and still no character designs when even his more handoffs offering has designs.
"he manga has heaps of "hype" built up through V-Jump cover art, creator interviews, drafts uploaded to the official website in order to build anticipation and each new chapter receives a specifically crafted hype trailer every month."
Which is.....no different from the last arc that had little Toriyama input. It's actually got less since it wasn't part of Jump Fest while Moro got acknowledged. And most of that doesn't reach outside of the small sphere of people who follow the manga, which isn't a super big audience. So a Toriyama story really didn't get anything more massive than the last arc. Which is an issue in Japan since a lot of Dragon Ball fans don't read the manga since, according with people familiar on the subject, they see the Super manga as Toyo's Dragon Ball.
"We've even been told in a separate interview that the lack of merch and videogame tie-ins is due to a lack of an animated adaptation "
That is speculation since there has been nothing official stating that is the case. And it makes no sense to leave literal money on the table for an anime that hasn't been announced to return and the best outcome is 2022. And these are some of the same people who claimed Super wasn't returning because of the One Piece movie, but had to walk that back when the movie wrapped up and no Super anime announcement. There is also the whole 'the Super anime is coming back in 2019' that left a bunch of people with egg on their faces.
" as is the industry standard for nearly every other manga/anime franchise that has ever existed, with only very very rare exceptions to the contrary."
It isn't the standard outside of ongoing anime, which Dragon Ball Super isn't. The Super anime has been dominate for over three years and it will probably be another two years before an anime happened. They're not going to waste years of money with something with Toriyama's name on it because of anime that people keep saying will return.
I am too apathetic or stubborn to talk about the subject material in good faith based on me pointing out the lack of advisement and Toriyama's character designs. I guess?
"Your marked distaste for the material in question and subsequent arguments against its legitimacy"
Which is kinda funny when I literally never gave my opinion on the latest manga arc, but go on assuming. And not sure how saying the anime may not adapt the manga is an argument of 'legitimacy' because so what if it doesn't? It like the Super manga ceases to exists if the anime chose not to adapt it. The manga will have it fans, like you, so why do you even care?
"bad faith regarding the DBS manga and whatever future it may have with the rest of the series going forward. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Why should I correct you since you already made assumptions on what I'm thinking? For the most part, I don't care about the manga and that has to do with the writing, pacing, and art, not canon or how much Toriyama is doing behind the scenes. Even if it was all Toriyama's created, my opinion about the quality of the manga isn't going change because Toyo is a mediocre writer who can't draw bodies properly even after all these years on top of most of the fights being dull, and the editor doesn't do their job.
"Anyone can talk to anyone at any time for any reason."
True, but you literally came into a discussion in question, accused me of all sorts of stuff, and then went 'I'm not talking anymore to you'. So it was a big, then why did you even respond? I see discussions all the time I don't agree with, but I don't jump in unless I plan to debate instead of 'make statement claiming the poster is dishonest and then leave'.
"You have most certainly responded to other users' comments unprovoked without invitation"
And which I have never once said, "I'm not about to continue bickering about this like a child with you (or anyone else), so I'm ending this here. I know better than to try to have a conversation with you on this subject. It's been literal years now and I'll have no part in continuously failing to change your already made up mind. So, have at it. Do as you please."
I entered a debate to have a discussion. You didn't in your original post. You basically tried to pull a hit and run with accusing me of not knowing stuff, being dishonest, and me trying to argue canon when the only thing I said was: there is nothing to point to the anime adapting the manga, which is completely true because the manga almost never gets acknowledge, Toriyama did no character designs for an arc that he supposedly heavily involved in when he did character designs when he did designs for every Super project up to this point, and the general lack of merch along with hype. The statement that 'they're waiting for the anime' makes little sense when the anime isn't ongoing and has been off the air for going over three years, hasn't been announce to make a return and doesn't seem to be something that will happened in the near future since Toei is busy with the projects, if it does come out 'soon' it won't happen for another year which is over a year worth of merch that they will be missing out on since there is no new stuff to supplement the wait, and the people saying this were the mostly the same ones who claimed that he anime was coming back in 2019 and then blamed the One Piece movie when it didn't.
