Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:01 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:17 am
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:09 am This isn't really an excuse. In-universe, it's been a while since the ToP happened and we know Goku always wants to surpass himself, so seeing Goku turning silver at will wouldn't be a problem but natural progression, and Ultra Ego could be worldwide introduced in the movie. It's only a new form, like SSB was in RoF.
Then it will have to be explained.

They will have to show a flashback of a generic training where Goku figures out how to activate UI at will, and Vegeta figuring out this new form. Maybe he first uses it while training with Beerus.

Events of the manga will thus have to be retconned, Vegeta will use his form for the first time not during the fight with Granolah, but during a training session.

What is not the right way to do it, is animating the Granolah vs. Vegeta fight, the fight where Vegeta first uses the form in the manga. Because then most people will wonder who Granolah is.
They don't HAVE to do it that way. They can just have Goku pull it out of his ass like they did with SSB, except people will go "ohh I know this, he can do it at will, now, cool.. I knew he'd eventually be able to do it". We were all waiting for it in Broly anyway, and people even went bonkers with the white hair red herring prior to SSB.

They can also have Vegeta turn UE and say this was taught to me by Beerus... it's bla bla bla power, done. Or have Goku say "oh the form Beerus taught you, let's try it out". There are many ways to introduce it without retconning anything, and it doesn't need to be his first time using it either, just like RoF wasn't the first time they used SSB either.

There's no deep background for UE, the manga spent like 3 chapters about it, it's pretty simple, DB is pretty simple.

Mind you, I don't think this will happen, but they aren't bound to anything preventing the forms to appear. It could also be a good way to "sell toys", the manga is clearly not enough, and the anime is not happening anytime soon, so having UE in the movie will speed up the process of having it in videogames and stuff. I'd sure buy a UE Vegeta DLC.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Chuquita » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:50 am

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:41 am
Chuquita wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:10 am Toriyama without editorial control means he can go write a lighter and more comedic script and nobody can tell him no.

I'm personally not upset about the path this film is taking as it's just so bizarre from the cgi to the plot, but I'd be lying if I said I was excited to watch it. I like Piccolo and EoZ Pan, but I'm more than done with Red Ribbon.
That’s the part more scarier than the CGI. When you let Toriyama tell a story without editoral control you either get something pretty good like Jaco or (more often than not) straight dogshit like Minus and Res F. You can’t expect to coast on name alone especially on the big stage as a globally distributed movie.

Let me ask you this if the CGI wasn’t involved & it was 2-d with same exact plot would you be more excited to watch the movie vs what it currently seems to be now?
Only from a clinical, sakuga perspective would I have more excitement as 2-D would mean it would have the potential to contain hand-drawn animation as interesting as Brolli's.

Plot-wise I'd still be as lukewarm as I currently am about it.

Right now this movie's plot feels like Toriyama seeing just how far he can diverge from expectations and still make a lot of money. Or maybe he's got a granddaughter by now and thought it'd be nice to write a movie staring Pan because she's a granddaughter too? Like how certain actors and actresses eventually act in kids movies after they become parents or grandparents so they have something to share with their kids?
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:15 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:01 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:17 am
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:09 am This isn't really an excuse. In-universe, it's been a while since the ToP happened and we know Goku always wants to surpass himself, so seeing Goku turning silver at will wouldn't be a problem but natural progression, and Ultra Ego could be worldwide introduced in the movie. It's only a new form, like SSB was in RoF.
Then it will have to be explained.

They will have to show a flashback of a generic training where Goku figures out how to activate UI at will, and Vegeta figuring out this new form. Maybe he first uses it while training with Beerus.

Events of the manga will thus have to be retconned, Vegeta will use his form for the first time not during the fight with Granolah, but during a training session.

What is not the right way to do it, is animating the Granolah vs. Vegeta fight, the fight where Vegeta first uses the form in the manga. Because then most people will wonder who Granolah is.
They don't HAVE to do it that way.
They don't, just like you don't have to go to school or get a job. But obviously there are some things that are preferable to do.
They can just have Goku pull it out of his ass like they did with SSB, except people will go "ohh I know this, he can do it at will, now, cool.. I knew he'd eventually be able to do it"
Yeah, except that I'm pretty sure this is one of the main complaints about Super. How SSG was introduced as this "Divine ultimate form" only to get replaced literally in the following movie, and a lot complain about Blue because it's a recolor compared to SSG and was poorly explained. Even the name is mocked.

So sure they can repeat that, but why do it? You can just drop a quick explanation and flashback and avoid any criticism. Like when Vegeta became Super Saiyan. They literally can just show a flashback to Goku training on his own and figuring out how to activate UI at will.

And I think SSB suffered a lot from how it came out of nowhere.
They can also have Vegeta turn UE and say this was taught to me by Beerus... it's bla bla bla power, done. Or have Goku say "oh the form Beerus taught you, let's try it out". There are many ways to introduce it without retconning anything,
Which is what I proposed.

However, I don't think Vegeta is going to use his Caveman form against Broly, who has been left behind by power-creep, and can't even access his Legendary form without a traumatic event happening.
Mind you, I don't think this will happen, but they aren't bound to anything preventing the forms to appear. It could also be a good way to "sell toys", the manga is clearly not enough, and the anime is not happening anytime soon, so having UE in the movie will speed up the process of having it in videogames and stuff. I'd sure buy a UE Vegeta DLC.
I mean, I don't think Caveman Vegeta is going to sell much. The form looks pretty ugly to me; I admit that to some people it might look good, although it's funny that Canonically it indeed is meant to look ugly/scary (based on Goku's recent comment). I think Vegeta was trending on Twitter that day not because of the form itself, but because people were scared he'd still get stomped even with a new form.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by jd55513 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:57 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:17 am
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:09 am This isn't really an excuse. In-universe, it's been a while since the ToP happened and we know Goku always wants to surpass himself, so seeing Goku turning silver at will wouldn't be a problem but natural progression, and Ultra Ego could be worldwide introduced in the movie. It's only a new form, like SSB was in RoF.
Then it will have to be explained.

They will have to show a flashback of a generic training where Goku figures out how to activate UI at will, and Vegeta figuring out this new form. Maybe he first uses it while training with Beerus.

Events of the manga will thus have to be retconned, Vegeta will use his form for the first time not during the fight with Granolah, but during a training session.

What is not the right way to do it, is animating the Granolah vs. Vegeta fight, the fight where Vegeta first uses the form in the manga. Because then most people will wonder who Granolah is.

They didn't do anything when we saw SSG Vegeta for the first time in the Broly movie (animated) it was a manga first form.
They didn't explain it, nor show anything in a character bio for the movie, or a flashback.

They can basically do the same thing with Ultra Ego.

Have it to where he is sparring with Goku and they get carried away, and Beerus or Whis interrupt, to Broly can hold his own in some way, which is believable.

That way, Ultra Ego gets it's official colors, and thus can be promoted in SDBH, Dokkan, Legends and XenoVerse 2 DLC

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:15 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:15 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:01 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:17 am

Then it will have to be explained.

They will have to show a flashback of a generic training where Goku figures out how to activate UI at will, and Vegeta figuring out this new form. Maybe he first uses it while training with Beerus.

Events of the manga will thus have to be retconned, Vegeta will use his form for the first time not during the fight with Granolah, but during a training session.

What is not the right way to do it, is animating the Granolah vs. Vegeta fight, the fight where Vegeta first uses the form in the manga. Because then most people will wonder who Granolah is.
They don't HAVE to do it that way.
They don't, just like you don't have to go to school or get a job. But obviously there are some things that are preferable to do.
They can just have Goku pull it out of his ass like they did with SSB, except people will go "ohh I know this, he can do it at will, now, cool.. I knew he'd eventually be able to do it"
Yeah, except that I'm pretty sure this is one of the main complaints about Super. How SSG was introduced as this "Divine ultimate form" only to get replaced literally in the following movie, and a lot complain about Blue because it's a recolor compared to SSG and was poorly explained. Even the name is mocked.

So sure they can repeat that, but why do it? You can just drop a quick explanation and flashback and avoid any criticism. Like when Vegeta became Super Saiyan. They literally can just show a flashback to Goku training on his own and figuring out how to activate UI at will.

And I think SSB suffered a lot from how it came out of nowhere.
They can also have Vegeta turn UE and say this was taught to me by Beerus... it's bla bla bla power, done. Or have Goku say "oh the form Beerus taught you, let's try it out". There are many ways to introduce it without retconning anything,
Which is what I proposed.

However, I don't think Vegeta is going to use his Caveman form against Broly, who has been left behind by power-creep, and can't even access his Legendary form without a traumatic event happening.
Mind you, I don't think this will happen, but they aren't bound to anything preventing the forms to appear. It could also be a good way to "sell toys", the manga is clearly not enough, and the anime is not happening anytime soon, so having UE in the movie will speed up the process of having it in videogames and stuff. I'd sure buy a UE Vegeta DLC.
I mean, I don't think Caveman Vegeta is going to sell much. The form looks pretty ugly to me; I admit that to some people it might look good, although it's funny that Canonically it indeed is meant to look ugly/scary (based on Goku's recent comment). I think Vegeta was trending on Twitter that day not because of the form itself, but because people were scared he'd still get stomped even with a new form.
The problem wasn't SSB, it was that SSG was shelved without having a chance to shine. Here, UI is not replacing anything, is not forcing a brand new form to go away before it can do anything... besides, it isn't a new form, it's saying yes, now UI is here to stay.

Again, it's a simple cartoon, there's no need for flashbacks or in-depth explanations on why some character have a new form. The fandom isn't as dumb as memes say it is, we've been dealing with new forms since 1992. If you want more, you can always read the manga.

And toys and videogames will still sell no matter how beautiful we think the characters are, which is a subjective matter.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:40 pm

jd55513 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:57 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:17 am
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:09 am This isn't really an excuse. In-universe, it's been a while since the ToP happened and we know Goku always wants to surpass himself, so seeing Goku turning silver at will wouldn't be a problem but natural progression, and Ultra Ego could be worldwide introduced in the movie. It's only a new form, like SSB was in RoF.
Then it will have to be explained.

They will have to show a flashback of a generic training where Goku figures out how to activate UI at will, and Vegeta figuring out this new form. Maybe he first uses it while training with Beerus.

Events of the manga will thus have to be retconned, Vegeta will use his form for the first time not during the fight with Granolah, but during a training session.

What is not the right way to do it, is animating the Granolah vs. Vegeta fight, the fight where Vegeta first uses the form in the manga. Because then most people will wonder who Granolah is.

They didn't do anything when we saw SSG Vegeta for the first time in the Broly movie (animated) it was a manga first form.
They didn't explain it, nor show anything in a character bio for the movie, or a flashback.

They can basically do the same thing with Ultra Ego.

Have it to where he is sparring with Goku and they get carried away, and Beerus or Whis interrupt, to Broly can hold his own in some way, which is believable.

That way, Ultra Ego gets it's official colors, and thus can be promoted in SDBH, Dokkan, Legends and XenoVerse 2 DLC
Since Vegeta had SSB, he therefore also had SSG by default. People knew this, even before Toyotaro showed Vegeta with SSG for the first time, fans already guessed that he had that form. Because he could turn into the next step, SSB. That he never chose to use it before the Broly movie is another matter.

You can't make this argument for Ultra Ego because it's literally never appeared before.

I know about Ultra Ego because I was eating popcorns that day when Twitter raged about the possibility of Vegeta losing with his new form. But if I didn't know about Ultra Ego and saw it for the first time in that movie, I'd think to myself "what the fuck is this, where does this come from".

As a writer, unless you're purposefully writing a plotline centred around a mystery (i.e. like the storyline centred around the identity of Black/Zamasu), then you never want to leave the audience confused/puzzled.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:52 pm

I remember being quite puzzled with SSB in ROF... First, the marketing went with info about Goku and Vegeta not needing SSJ anymore as it is obsolete, which made me excited to see them in base forms based on this info and the poster.

Then in the movie, they are pretty casual and then, Goku goes all flakey, turns a Super Saiyan with blue hair and he basically pulled it out of his ass with exclaiming: ''Lookey, lookey, this is a super saiyan with power of super saiyan god, somehow, because we trained with Whis and that's what it does to you...'' with Freeza following: ''I was doing 100 sit-ups and 100 push-ups for three months and that changed my color to gold, somehow...''
With Goku Black in Super basically doing something similar: ''I have Goku's body and can turn SSB, but because I am actually not Goku, my hair is pink, somehow and because magical god stuff...''

If that is a good writing, I am not sure, we just accept it because it happened and then convolute some theories and stuff here on forums.
But where are the days of DBZ. With a bit of headcanoning here, in Saiyan arc, we get retcon for Oozaru, Saiyans have somehow bodies that react to powers, like blutz waves from moon, that change their anatomy.
We got foreshadowing for legendary warrior, Super Saiyan, this triggers another anatomical change, the pupils get light and hair turns golden, because in manga, it doesn't take so much black ink (And I think, that Toriyama has a sense of humor, so he played this explanation as a funny troll he is, as there is still ton of black ink anyway).
Forms go beyond, change the hair, with SSJ3 being the most drastic, but still, it makes sense. Even SSJ4 was interesting idea of a stronger form, that goes through Oozaru and has the traits and being explained in GT as a true SSJ as Saiyans have tails and turn to monkeys (that's how I remember the explanation from memory).

Sure, SSJ God looked really different, Goku's body is slimmer, the magenta hair is odd choice, but I was like okay, it's something different, they had to freshen it up, but in comparison to kind of daring design ideas in GT and also, thank god that the form didn't end up as TOEI did imagine it at first, as a kind of SSJ3 with cape... again, the explanation, somehow a group of 5 pure-hearted Saiyans get together and that makes you God, because. Sure, it's basically the same kind of craziness like doing stupid dance and fuse as a result, but even that somehow makes more sense to me than group of Saiyans somehow pulling this off out of their brains.
Now Goku's hair also turn silver when he basically has different state of mind, at least, that was a proper form explained by Whis and I can imagine it has some visual effect on Saiyans based on what came before... But all the new forms in-between, with raging Trunks and now in manga, the Ego form, they're kind of BS concept-wise.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Torturephile » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:12 pm

I'm so out of touch with what's going on with the franchise in the past years, DBS manga asides. So there's a new "movie" coming out, but its trailer looks like something out of a video game? On the bright side, I'm glad they're finally shooting past the End of Z so Pan (and Piccolo) is getting some focus, but still, what the hell did I just watch?
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:21 pm

I don't see why anyone should be confused by Super Saiyan Rosé. Goku Black was obviously hiding some kind of transformation, he wouldn't have just his Base form when he has a Saiyan body. So it makes sense that he had a new Godly power-up and, since he hyped this form as a "new level no other mortal can reach", "the pinnacle of beauty", etc. it makes sense that this form had a different colour from yellow/blue.

Meanwhile SSB was literally, purely random. It came out of nowhere. SSG was established as this Divine incredible form that allowed Goku to reach the realm of the Gods, only for it to get replaced with blue hair in the next movie. And I don't believe it was outright explained in the movie how they got the form? They might have just mentioned they did some training or something. I haven't watched the movie in years but I do remember that I was puzzled by SSB, because it legit came out of nowhere.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:12 pm

Mr_CINDER wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:12 am
99% of me believes this is the last movie also. 1% of me is still holding out hope that it isn’t it would be a shame for DB to go out on a whimper and not a bang.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Chuquita » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:34 pm

I could see this as the end for a while. They let 3 of Nozawa's later working years in this modern era go by with no new animated db content after all. She's not attending Jump Festa in person, but digitally. Putting Pan front and center may have multiple reasons.

I'm wondering now if after this film they'll wait until they have her successor ready before doing any more animated db.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by TobyS » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:58 am

Do we know who's voicing Pan. Is nozawa doing it as it's a son character and she could actually use a deliberately girly voice.

Or are they treating her like a new character/Satan character.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:19 am

TobyS wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:58 am Do we know who's voicing Pan. Is nozawa doing it as it's a son character and she could actually use a deliberately girly voice.
1) Nozawa only does the male Son members' voices
2) Pan was voiced by another VA in the 1990s.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Chuquita » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:09 am

TobyS wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:58 am Do we know who's voicing Pan. Is nozawa doing it as it's a son character and she could actually use a deliberately girly voice.

Or are they treating her like a new character/Satan character.
Pan's been voiced by Yuko Minaguchi (who is also Videl). I'd be surprised if she wasn't. Minaguchi is 55.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Mr_CINDER » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:39 am

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:12 pm
Mr_CINDER wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:12 am
99% of me believes this is the last movie also. 1% of me is still holding out hope that it isn’t it would be a shame for DB to go out on a whimper and not a bang.
100% agree

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by sangofe » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:55 am

Mr_CINDER wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:39 am
ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:12 pm
Mr_CINDER wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:12 am
99% of me believes this is the last movie also. 1% of me is still holding out hope that it isn’t it would be a shame for DB to go out on a whimper and not a bang.
100% agree
Why should this be the last movie?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Mr_CINDER » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:37 am

sangofe wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:55 am
Mr_CINDER wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:39 am
ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:12 pm

99% of me believes this is the last movie also. 1% of me is still holding out hope that it isn’t it would be a shame for DB to go out on a whimper and not a bang.
100% agree
Why should this be the last movie?
Because every current arc is the same, The story is getting nowhere , character's becoming ""strongest"" for no reason. As i said current Dragon Ball is direction less, its getting real tiresome and boring as hell.Toyotaro not fit to continue DB's legacy and Toriyama getting real old, so i think this movie will wrap everything up.IF DB continues in the future thats a BIG IF it will be all toyotaro.Toei have packed schedule with upcoming ONE PIECE red , SLAM DUNK , KITARO movies.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by sangofe » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:13 am

Mr_CINDER wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:37 am
sangofe wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:55 am
Mr_CINDER wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:39 am
100% agree
Why should this be the last movie?
Because every current arc is the same, The story is getting nowhere , character's becoming ""strongest"" for no reason. As i said current Dragon Ball is direction less, its getting real tiresome and boring as hell.Toyotaro not fit to continue DB's legacy and Toriyama getting real old, so i think this movie will wrap everything up.IF DB continues in the future thats a BIG IF it will be all toyotaro.Toei have packed schedule with upcoming ONE PIECE red , SLAM DUNK , KITARO movies.
I don't think that will happen. There's no logical reason Toei should do this. And I haven't read the manga but headlines and small spoilers don't seem to be the same over and over.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:27 am

If Dragon Ball hasn't been ended by now, I doubt Super Hero is going to be the end.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Mr_CINDER » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:40 am

sangofe wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:13 am
Mr_CINDER wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:37 am
sangofe wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:55 am

Why should this be the last movie?
Because every current arc is the same, The story is getting nowhere , character's becoming ""strongest"" for no reason. As i said current Dragon Ball is direction less, its getting real tiresome and boring as hell.Toyotaro not fit to continue DB's legacy and Toriyama getting real old, so i think this movie will wrap everything up.IF DB continues in the future thats a BIG IF it will be all toyotaro.Toei have packed schedule with upcoming ONE PIECE red , SLAM DUNK , KITARO movies.
I don't think that will happen. There's no logical reason Toei should do this. And I haven't read the manga but headlines and small spoilers don't seem to be the same over and over.
I wish that too but another thing that could happen is from here on out there will be movies after movies from Toriyama (as long as he is comfortable writing it)and the current DBS manga will continue under toyotaro.

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