Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Mr_CINDER » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:39 am

Skar wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:43 am
Mr_CINDER wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:40 amif you wanted to talk to me you should have quoted me and last time I have checked the rules and regulation of this website, it does not state that a user have to forcefully engage conversation with someone.If you look at my any previous posts I said multiple times that I am only kinda excited for this film because this is 100% Toriyama but thats it. Sorry but i cant be a mindless consumer who consumes everything that given to him, if I see bullshit I will call it out ,this CGI is garbage its simple as that.But despite this if this movie somehow manage to earn more than Broly this will become a new norm because consumers are happy with everything they are getting.Again There was nothing porposeful about it if you want to talk to me you should have quoted me.
I think this misconstrues what he's saying. There's nothing wrong with having a different opinion but you're been repeating the same generalization about the fanbase and not really addressing any of the counterarguments. You only replied to agree with someone making a similar generalization. I don't know if it's rule but I guess more like forum etiquette or common courtesy and what differentiates it from Twitter.

This argument that only mindless consumers will like this movie doesn't make sense since there's not really evidence to lead to that conclusion. I could be confusing your comments with someone else but weren't you also arguing that the trailer doesn't have as much YouTube views and interest? If you're claiming the general audience isn't too excited for it then who are these mindless consumers? Many fans on here who are looking forward it acknowledged that it'll probably make less than Broly.
I never said anything about trailer views.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:58 am

Mr_CINDER wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:40 am if you wanted to talk to me you should have quoted me and last time I have checked the rules and regulation of this website, it does not state that a user have to forcefully engage conversation with someone.
Rule #2 of the forum (emphasizing the relevant part):
Rule 2 wrote: All contributions should be polite, accepting, and written properly. Excessive (particularly one-line-quote-and-response) back-and-forths are frowned upon, as are multiple posts in a row by the same user. Please think about your contributions before making them; a simple “Yes” or “I agree”, while having a perfectly fine sentiment behind them, do not actually add anything substantial to the on-going conversations.
Which is what your previous post boilded down to:
Mr_CINDER wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:19 pm
Mister_Popo wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:06 pm
Finally someone gets it thank you.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Skar » Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:18 am

Mr_CINDER wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:39 amI never said anything about trailer views.
My bad. There was someone talking about YouTube views and needing to spend millions on marketing. That doesn't sound like it would be necessary if the same person is arguing that the majority of fans are mindless consumers. I still don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion since the people posting on this forum don't all share the same views.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by fleahop » Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:54 am

Skar wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:18 am
Mr_CINDER wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:39 amI never said anything about trailer views.
My bad. There was someone talking about YouTube views and needing to spend millions on marketing. That doesn't sound like it would be necessary if the same person is arguing that the majority of fans are mindless consumers. I still don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion since the people posting on this forum don't all share the same views.
No you had/have a point regardless. Yeah he didn't mention that but it's not just Mr. Cinder, but it's becoming just Mr. Cinder. His reply to you was indicative to the problem honestly. It's like having someone write a whole essay as to why you have a bad take and them just tweeting that they spelled your name wrong and then you harp on that one thing.

He's purposely avoiding the points and just relentlessly keeps being negative. It's like he's trying to martyr himself. I've acted like he is before and it was during a very bad mental episode. I'm not saying that's the case, but it really highlights how messed up it is.

I don't mind negativity about the movie, but what he's doing and what others were doing was taking it too far. Carrying the same points through several threads and seemingly being sour over other people wanting to watch it isn't constructive at all.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:41 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:02 pm For real. Are some of you actually reading anything other than your own posts?

There is constant discussion about all of the new products and there is an overwhelming amount of completely different opinions about them. And they're all filled with really interesting nuance and minutia! Persona A agrees with Person B about Aspect X but disagrees on Aspect Y! It's wild!

Like me! I don't love the CG direction. But I also don't think they'll stick with it long-term, and yet I still want to see what they're capable of with it! I don't love the fact that they're going to a past concept and using Red Ribbon as a basis. But I'm interested in what they've shown me of that story! I don't think Toriyama is the end-all/be-all when it comes to creating stories. But I value his input, and I think it's essential to the overall feeling of Dragon Ball, even today!

Can you accept what I just said? Do I even exist?!

The one or two of you keep coming back with this completely insane write-off attitude about the entire franchise and its fandom as if you speak for everyone. Knock it off once and for all, would you kindly?

I would have liked to clarify my post a little more. That's, if you responded to me, that's what I'm going to assume from now on.
The statement 'The standard DB-fan doesn't really want quality, he is simply so desperate for new content that basically everything is good, even if he has seen the same content dozens of times before', I meant something different than that you, along with a number of others, have now interpreted it. My post wasn't meant to be as hateful as it is now being insinuated somewhere. Maybe I didn't put the right nuance everywhere, so that it is also clear to you. That's why I zoom in a little deeper on my own post.

I should have chosen the word 'average consumer' better here. Because that was actually more exactly what I meant by it. For that you have to make the connection with my introduction: 'Dragon Ball isn't being read, watched or enjoyed anymore. It's simply being consumed, that's the main problem.' So that's really what it's about. I wasn't actually referring to a physical person, nor did i meant there are not a lot of different thoughts out (t)here.

I can appreciate any true fan with a well-argued thought. Whatever that opinion may be, as long as it has respect for another opinion, is open to also dare to look at the other side and as long as it makes sense somewhere. You have to be able to go beyond the 'fan zone' level, and assess the new content that is out there in the most objective way possible.
Although I sometimes unfortunately have to admit that unfortunately this is not always the case, in my opinion. To justify certain lacunae in the story with your own head canon is not exactly the same as objectively 'nuancing' why something makes sense. I regulary see this happing in the manga thread, sometimes in ways that it becomes painful to read.

In another thread viewtopic.php?f=25&t=47005 I mentioned why I have certain concerns about this film and the franchise in general. Yes, the word immediately fell here, DB(S) is nowadays more of a franchise than a full story. On the basis of marketing research what the consumer likes, new ideas are constantly being devised that are not so new after all. Sometimes that just happens to turn out well, like with Broly. But that does not automatically mean that this is always the case.

The main point is: quality is not a main goal here, the main goal of the franchise is to keep the money coming in. It has become a 'consumer based story', instead of a 'creative based story'. Gohan had to be brought up again, you know, because they want to do something new with the character we've actually seen so many times. In reality, as the manga also shows, other characters besides Goku and Vegeta do not or hardly evolve, and Goku and Vegeta, do they even really evolve themselves in a meaningful manner?
Will Gohan's reintrodiction really give the story a new, refreshing twist that is permanent? I'm not going to make a final judgment on the new film just yet. But I'm concerned, and I think I'm giving some valid reasons for the forementioned thread.

Apart from the story itself, 2D (good 2D animation just to be clear) for me remains the gold standard for a good anime at the moment. Not CGI, the image on last page with the main characters (orange border), that gives me a 'Select your player' feeling, that's not the quality we deserve. That's why I honestly remain skeptical for now about the future of Dragon Ball and whether anything is really going to improve. I am not saying that it is completely impossible that we will get something decent on our plate again, be it probably temporary, preferably animated, but I first want to wait and see what is served before I eat it with taste.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by emperior » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:02 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:17 pm I would like the two mysterious characters to be older Goten and Trunks and this movie being the last story before we move past EOZ.
Mostly likely it will be a transformation from one of the saiyans and the villain final form.
I think that those are indeed Goten and Trunks. This month’s V-Jump should have some additional information about the movie so hopefully it will show the two. We know that Trunks’ VA is in the movie, and Trunks should definitely be aged up now so Goten should too.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by YamiGoku » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:01 pm

I know this movie probably has Goten and Trunks, but, we only know Trunks VA is confirmed so, can you imagine if the only thing we got from them is Trunks voice over a phone call? I kinda want this to happen just to see the reactions of the fandom... :twisted:

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Gt91 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:00 pm

YamiGoku wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:01 pm I know this movie probably has Goten and Trunks, but, we only know Trunks VA is confirmed so, can you imagine if the only thing we got from them is Trunks voice over a phone call? I kinda want this to happen just to see the reactions of the fandom... :twisted:
Masako Nozawa dubs Goku, Gohan and Goten, so he could be confirmed as well.
In my opinion, we can't see Trunks without Goten, and there are high chances to see both of them in this movie.
I think they will be revealed in February.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by pepd » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:13 pm

Mr_CINDER wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:40 am
VegettoEX wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:58 pm
Mr_CINDER wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:19 pm Finally someone gets it thank you.
At this point y'all are purposefully not actually reading or engaging with your fellow fans having a conversation with you.

This is now a formal administrative warning. If you're not willing to have a conversation, we're not willing to have you.
if you wanted to talk to me you should have quoted me and last time I have checked the rules and regulation of this website, it does not state that a user have to forcefully engage conversation with someone.If you look at my any previous posts I said multiple times that I am only kinda excited for this film because this is 100% Toriyama but that's it. Sorry but i cant be a mindless consumer who consumes everything that given to him, if I see bullshit I will call it out ,this CGI is garbage its simple as that.But despite this if this movie somehow manage to earn more than Broly this will become a new norm because consumers are happy with everything they are getting.Again There was nothing porposeful about it if you want to talk to me you should have quoted me.
You are not "calling out bullshit", you are qualifying everyone who disagrees with your valoration of the visuals a "mindless consumer".

You are also not just "not having a conversation with someone", you are reiterating again and again, the qualification as a response to people explaining a differing point of view, without adding anything and completely disregarding the objects of your qualification's points.
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:19 am ...It's been a while since I last used the foes feature on these forums.
In my experience, people have just learned to be more subtle.
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Anyway, I wonder if Goten's haircut will be like Gokuu's, it could be fun to see the mentioned confusion with his father.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by YamiGoku » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:24 pm

Gt91 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:00 pm
YamiGoku wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:01 pm I know this movie probably has Goten and Trunks, but, we only know Trunks VA is confirmed so, can you imagine if the only thing we got from them is Trunks voice over a phone call? I kinda want this to happen just to see the reactions of the fandom... :twisted:
Masako Nozawa dubs Goku, Gohan and Goten, so he could be confirmed as well.
In my opinion, we can't see Trunks without Goten, and there are high chances to see both of them in this movie.
I think they will be revealed in February.
Oh right, I forgot. :oops:

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Skar » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:40 pm

Mister_Popo wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:41 pmThe main point is: quality is not a main goal here, the main goal of the franchise is to keep the money coming in. It has become a 'consumer based story', instead of a 'creative based story'.
Thanks for clarifying what you meant. To be honest, I've had similar concerns in the past. I think it's a common when an old fan hears about their favorite series will return and dread that it might become too commercialized and only exist as an easy cash grab.

I don't really feel that way anymore or at least not as much due to how little we've gotten compared to other franchises in the same period. This revival has been going for nine years and we've only had four films, an anime shorter than DB, and two extra arcs in the manga. If they're ever adapted, they might only cover 40-50 episodes at most. Compare it a series like Pokemon thar had maybe nine movies and +400 episodes since 2013. Nothing against these franchises and I think the most "consumer-based" are usually based on video games or toys like Yugioh and Beyblade which I'm pretty sure also had more content than DB since if returned.
Gohan had to be brought up again, you know, because they want to do something new with the character we've actually seen so many times. In reality, as the manga also shows, other characters besides Goku and Vegeta do not or hardly evolve, and Goku and Vegeta, do they even really evolve themselves in a meaningful manner? Will Gohan's reintrodiction really give the story a new, refreshing twist that is permanent? I'm not going to make a final judgment on the new film just yet. But I'm concerned, and I think I'm giving some valid reasons for the forementioned thread.
I think it comes down to what you're expecting from the franchise tbh. It's a common concern about characters having nowhere to go or the series "spinning its wheels". This feeling is going to be worse for the fans expecting the franchise to continue past EoZ for hundreds of episodes more. If you're like me and still believe that it's ending before EoZ then it probably wouldn't be as big of a concern. This one is a year or two before EoZ so the end can't be too far off. I think the most we've had taking place in the same year were three arcs in DBS before some timeskip. They could potentially cram a lot in there but I'm going to wait to see what happens after the film.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Pafupafu » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:24 pm

I haven't been on here in a while but after reading through some recent complaints regarding the CG animation style for this movie, I wanted to weigh in. I've had the opportunity of working more and more in CG/animation/virtual production - and it is my educated opinion that, barring any considerable backlash or box office failure, Toei is 100% going to be using this style for not only this film, but for any future Dragon Ball animated projects. In this type of production workflow - asset building is the MOST important step in getting long-form content in animation completed. It's my assumption that after the immense financial success of 'Broly' and the unsustainable/audience-panned animation production of the Super series, Toei has decided to move forward with a more stable workflow. They are putting more budget behind this film than Broly specifically to be able to build assets (character models, environments, FX) to later be repurposed in future films and series.

It's pretty much a given that more films and a potential extension of the DBS series are on the way - this is a business workflow decision to be able to sustain that. Instead of starting from scratch each and every frame of each episode - they will have pre-rigged models built to simply drop in and animate. The initial results may not be the most ideal but the goal is to have an asset library that allows for even more quality animation once "over the hump" in initial production. This is the same business methodology used by Lucasfilm in 2008 for their Clone Wars CG series - use a film to justify the budget of the asset creation, then continue to build from there. Clone Wars is a prime example of how a series can evolve once over said hump. Efficiencies such as this lead to more time for quality work and creativity.

That being said - personally, I'm not a fan of this visual direction but can understand how this can help support a more sustainable future for Dragon Ball content with even more regularity. I think the initial reaction will be mixed-negative but eventually they will have some really stellar work come out of this whether in a follow up film or the eventual TV series...it will just take time.

I also do think this cues it up perfectly for Toei to have the assets/ability to do a retelling of the classic DB/Z series as well...

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:19 pm

Sigh…you know in specific situations like these I envy the Sonic fan base. When Paramount released that dogshit CGI model of Sonic their fans complained so much that they were forced to change it and make it look good. With Dragonball I feel this fandom accepts & in some cases enforces low standards way to much for such a thing to occur. Which is why Toei/Shueisha gets away with things as the bad animation for half of Super, the terrible writing, retcons, the shitty CGI etc. I mean the fact that trailers isn’t giving everyone Ep.5 of Super/ Dragonball Evolution vibes is concerning.

Pafupafu if what you say happens. Super Hero will kill the franchise the same way Final Fantasy spirits within movie killed Squaresoft back in the day.

And Res F will be vindicated from being the worst DB movie :D .

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Skar » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:38 am

Pafupafu wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:24 pm I haven't been on here in a while but after reading through some recent complaints regarding the CG animation style for this movie, I wanted to weigh in. I've had the opportunity of working more and more in CG/animation/virtual production - and it is my educated opinion that, barring any considerable backlash or box office failure, Toei is 100% going to be using this style for not only this film, but for any future Dragon Ball animated projects.
Have there been any anime franchises that have switched entirely to CGI? I know that One Piece and Digimon had one time CGI films in the early 2000s but then back to tradition animation after that. Doraemon had Stand By Me and its sequel in CGI but the following two films weren't. If Toei is 100% going to do this, there should be at least one example of another franchise doing it.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:45 am

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:19 pm Sigh…you know in specific situations like these I envy the Sonic fan base. When Paramount released that dogshit CGI model of Sonic their fans complained so much that they were forced to change it and make it look good. With Dragonball I feel this fandom accepts & in some cases enforces low standards way to much for such a thing to occur. Which is why Toei/Shueisha gets away with things as the bad animation for half of Super, the terrible writing, retcons, the shitty CGI etc.
The Sonic film only had to change ONE character model, and that set the film back by several months.
Even if DB fans held a well-concerted riot on Twitter dot com for a prolonged period, do you seriously think TOEI would change ALL the character models and the entire visual appeal of the WHOLE film? At that point, it’s sunk cost.
I mean the fact that trailers isn’t giving everyone Ep.5 of Super/ Dragonball Evolution vibes is concerning.
Despite the CGI, this film looks nowhere near as bad as early Super and won’t be nearly as bad as DBE. This sounds of fear mongering.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Mr_CINDER » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:58 am

Skar wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:38 am Have there been any anime franchises that have switched entirely to CGI? I know that One Piece and Digimon had one time CGI films in the early 2000s but then back to tradition animation after that. Doraemon had Stand By Me and its sequel in CGI but the following two films weren't. If Toei is 100% going to do this, there should be at least one example of another franchise doing it.
This is DB we are talking about the series that changed everything and a multibillion dollar franchise so they will take chances because Toriyama is Ok with any changes, And if this works out this will be a new norm.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Xeogran » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:07 am

Nah, if I were to bet, I'm 100% sure if DBS 2 happens, it'll be animated in 2D. This movie is just one thing and lots of franchises recently have been trying 3D movies (like Pokemon) but then returned to normal afterwards.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:36 am

Having a completely CG anime series does not seem viable at all. They would need waaay more animatiors, supervisors, directors that have worked on CG projects before and a bunch of time. It would fall apart just like Berserk (2016). However, they could integrate CG animation for some scenes during episodes kinda like Dragon Quest: Dai.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Skar » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:56 am

Mr_CINDER wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:58 amThis is DB we are talking about the series that changed everything and a multibillion dollar franchise so they will take chances because Toriyama is Ok with any changes, And if this works out this will be a new norm.
Sure but speculating that it might happen is different than claiming it's happening 100%. They're willing to take chances but it's kinda jumping the gun to assume that experimenting on a CGI film will lead to everything in the series will be done in CGI. If there aren't any anime franchises that have done this, there has to be a reason why someone would believe Toei is the first. Toei owns OP and Digimon but they only had one time CGI films years ago.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:17 am

Pafupafu wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:24 pm That being said - personally, I'm not a fan of this visual direction but can understand how this can help support a more sustainable future for Dragon Ball content with even more regularity. I think the initial reaction will be mixed-negative but eventually they will have some really stellar work come out of this whether in a follow up film or the eventual TV series...it will just take time.

I also do think this cues it up perfectly for Toei to have the assets/ability to do a retelling of the classic DB/Z series as well...
This makes a lot of sense. Use a low-stakes, experimental film like this to set up a more sustainable production flow for future works, getting the growing pains of it out of the way early so it doesn't take too long for it to start looking great.

And the film's story does vaguely feel like it's setting up something for the future (if only EoZ). This production tactic would fit with that.

Lastly, "I don't particularly like it but can understand why they're doing it" is a more nuanced take than "it's bad and anyone who doesn't hate it as much as I do is just a mindless consumer with no standards."

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