Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:53 pm

jjbgood wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:28 pmNow beast gohan just looks ridicolous with that long ass spikey hair. its like a parody of dragon ball.
Honestly, that's how I feel about Super Saiyan 3, and that's one of the reasons I love it.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Kagari » Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:20 pm

BWri wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:35 pm
FortuneSSJ wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:20 pm Man, Toriyama really seems to have enjoyed working on this story.

I liked his explanation about Gohan's new form. I guess this line end up meaning something after all:
I'm hoping this results in Gohan getting 2 transformation lines (look at me embracing all this new form nonsense). Beast Form fits Gohan so dang perfectly because it encapsulates that aggressive cockiness he gets whenever he unleashes the depths of his power. We've seen it with SSJ2 and Ultimate back in the Buu arc. Gohan's kind of always had this Jekyll and Hyde aspect to his character, even when he was a kid and I'm glad Toriyama-san is utilizing that. Of course, he knows these characters better than us so it's always a treat when he digs into the goodie bag and recontexualizes a character for us. He does it so effortlessly too. Credit where its due.

Anyways, fanboying aside, the other transformation line I'd like to see is the one alluded to in the manga. I'd like to see Gohan evolve his human/pacificist side with the Ultimate Form. So basically, he could have a demon side and a tranquil side. Gohan could legit end up being the coolest character and as someone who's never been a Gohan fan, I'm here for it.
That was never a thing, Viz mucked up the translation there. All he said was that he wanted to evolve as an individual [martial artist] without relying on Super Saiyan forms.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Skar » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:00 pm

Zephyr wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:53 pmHonestly, that's how I feel about Super Saiyan 3, and that's one of the reasons I love it.
I think they're similar and both could be seen as parodies. IMO the main difference is that SSJ3 is a more extreme upgrade of SSJ while Beast Gohan comes after Gohan had his potential unlocked by Old Kai and no longer needed to transform so less clear what it's supposed to be. If he was enraged enough, could he have unlocked it in the Buu saga or ToP? I'm not sure if Super Hero specified why it was only achieved here.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:25 pm

Zephyr wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:22 pmCan't say I agree. In Episode 90 (I think?) of Super Gohan says this, which I had at the time written off as something which would never amount to anything:
Except Gohan clearly didn't work (or wasn't working) for that goal. He had returned to his scholar life, something long established to be his goal. It's one of those things that, as far as I'm concerned, is clearly something that only resulted from fan and corporate pressure, and Toriyama relented.

And visually, it doesn't tie with anything.
Zephyr wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:22 pmUltra Instinct had even more build up. Ties into lessons Whis was teaching Goku and Vegeta as far back as F.
Yes, but that was always more of a condition of the body, a state of mind. Not a transformation/form. And it's not a new concept, it goes back to early Dragon Ball. But visuals, specially transformations, sell.
Zephyr wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:22 pmSuper Saiyan 3, on the other hand, had absolutely no buildup whatsoever. Came completely out of nowhere.
From the visuals alone, Super Saiyan 3 is a clear continuation of the Super Saiyan concept. A more powerful version, with its own drawbacks.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:38 pm

Skar wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:00 pm
Zephyr wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:53 pmHonestly, that's how I feel about Super Saiyan 3, and that's one of the reasons I love it.
I think they're similar and both could be seen as parodies. IMO the main difference is that SSJ3 is a more extreme upgrade of SSJ while Beast Gohan comes after Gohan had his potential unlocked by Old Kai and no longer needed to transform so less clear what it's supposed to be. If he was enraged enough, could he have unlocked it in the Buu saga or ToP? I'm not sure if Super Hero specified why it was only achieved here.
Yeah, it's unclear why it was achieved here and not prior, but (going off of additional information not provided in the film itself), the nature of the thing is very clearly described: "based off the sort of awakenings he had as a boy", "the wild beast within him has awakened".
Luso Saiyan wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:25 pmExcept Gohan clearly didn't work (or wasn't working) for that goal. He had returned to his scholar life, something long established to be his goal.
Yeah, it's unclear how or why that set up was finally paid off here. But, the fact remains that there was a set up and a pay off.
Luso Saiyan wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:25 pmYes, but that was always more of a condition of the body, a state of mind. Not a transformation/form. And it's not a new concept, it goes back to early Dragon Ball.
I don't think the difference between a state or a form is very important here. The point is that there was buildup. And, as you've helpfully noted, there's buildup that goes back to before Super began. Same way Gohan's form is tying into ideas from before Super (ie: his "awakenings").
Luso Saiyan wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:25 pmFrom the visuals alone, Super Saiyan 3 is a clear continuation of the Super Saiyan concept. A more powerful version, with its own drawbacks.
Okay, if we're talking about visual buildup, then fair enough. Though I'm not sure I'd put Beast Mode or Ultra Instinct as having less visual buildup than Super Saiyan God or Blue, neither of which have any visual buildup. And on that note, the original Super Saiyan transformation has no visual buildup with what came before it. What's the explanation for why their hair turns gold?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Marz » Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:22 pm

Zephyr wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:38 pm Yeah, it's unclear how or why that set up was finally paid off here. But, the fact remains that there was a set up and a pay off.
A single line in a random episode years ago is not a build up. Especially when there was no follow-up to this plot point ever since this. Gohan wasn't training or actively looking for this exclusive form, and that line is also never alluded to in the movie itself. It literally came out of nowhere and it doesn't even seem to have anything to do with anything we know about the show. I mean, apparently his hidden potential now serves as an excuse to justify any new form, so there's that (even though in the original manga it never led him to anything other than temporary power boosts or Saiyan transformations triggered by rage, and even for those things there was build up )

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:25 pm

Marz wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:22 pmEspecially when there was no follow-up to this plot point ever since this. Gohan wasn't training or actively looking for this exclusive form, and that line is also never alluded to in the movie itself.
The new form effectively follows up on that line, whether it's what they had in mind or not.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Skar » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:08 pm

Zephyr wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:38 pmYeah, it's unclear why it was achieved here and not prior, but (going off of additional information not provided in the film itself), the nature of the thing is very clearly described: "based off the sort of awakenings he had as a boy", "the wild beast within him has awakened".
Hopefully we get more detail if the form appears again and why it was achieved here specifically. I was thinking because Pan was in danger but she was at risk of being permanently erased along with the rest of the universe in the ToP so that can't be the only reason.

I think the Saiyans having their own unique transformations is inspired by newer shonen that has more variety in powerups for the main cast. I don't mind but it requires more explanation since originally it was just unlocking the next natural Saiyan form. Gohan's rage helped him be the first Saiyan to achieve SSJ2 but only after mastering SSJ1 with Goku. SSJ3 wasn't a Goku exclusive form since Gotenks also achieved it.

Although I'm not sure how much of that is Toriyama's idea. Goku and Vegeta going different routes was only seen in the manga and implied in the anime. In the movie continuity it seems Vegeta's highest form is still regular Blue. Toriyama originally wasn't even going to use Gohan so giving him another transformation might've been a last minute decision. Toriyama wasn't interested in having Gohan perform the SSJG ritual or train with Whis last few in-universe years but suddenly he makes up for all that with a single rage boost.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Sanity's_Theif » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:58 am

I wish they let AT make this just a Piccolo movie. It was clearly designed to be that way, and I love all the parts Piccolo plays in the movie. Gohan is just so boring of a character. He's still just the same 1 trick pony after all these years. He slacks off, then oh hold up, he pulls a random power up out of his ass last second. He's just a tired cliché and he detracts from the movie. Piccolo and even Pan are so much more interesting and I wish they would involve them more and leave Gohan out of this, he wants to be a scholar, that has no place in a show about fighting.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Trouser » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:36 am

Sanity's_Theif wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:58 am I wish they let AT make this just a Piccolo movie. It was clearly designed to be that way, and I love all the parts Piccolo plays in the movie. Gohan is just so boring of a character. He's still just the same 1 trick pony after all these years. He slacks off, then oh hold up, he pulls a random power up out of his ass last second. He's just a tired cliché and he detracts from the movie. Piccolo and even Pan are so much more interesting and I wish they would involve them more and leave Gohan out of this, he wants to be a scholar, that has no place in a show about fighting.
I agree 100%. Gohan is a little forced. A solo Piccolo movie would be better. Gohan has literally nothing to himself other than "he angery he strongery". Goten and Trunks, right now as young adults, are more interesting* than Gohan and his repetetive arc of "coming back".

*Not as Gotenks. He's always used as a lame joke. Naked butt of fat man is not funny anymore.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by jjbgood » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:07 am

What bothers me most is that you can tell how badly this is written by depending on spin-off media and interviews of producers and writers to explain whats going on. You shouldnt need statements made from the writer, to understand why something happens and what it means. The movie/tv show/manga should explain it in his story. But were in this weird state of "some bullshit happens that makes no sense at all and comes out of nowhere... so... hopefully this will be adressed in an interview or statement!"... I mean, come on!
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:59 am

Zephyr wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:38 pmBut, the fact remains that there was a set up and a pay off.
Okay, I don't really count that throw away line as a pay off but agree to disagree. If it's a pay off of something, it's of the untapped potential that Gohan always had that he never really fully discovered or put to use. But considering the circumstances, it seemed to happen randomly. Suddenly, after 10 years, it just happens.
Luso Saiyan wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:25 pmOkay, if we're talking about visual buildup, then fair enough. Though I'm not sure I'd put Beast Mode or Ultra Instinct as having less visual buildup than Super Saiyan God or Blue, neither of which have any visual buildup. And on that note, the original Super Saiyan transformation has no visual buildup with what came before it. What's the explanation for why their hair turns gold?
Super Saiyan was talked about for a while, and the transformation showed what a Super Saiyan really is.

Super Saiyan God is a consequence of undergoing a specific ritual, something that was explained, had its own lore and we did see. Blue is just the Super Saiyan equivament of a Saiyan with god ki. All of this was thoroughly explained. We know why it happened and why it couldn't have happened before (although they want back on all that stuff afterwards).

Ultra Instinct was a concept that was meant to be apart from a transformation. I mean, from a marketing standpoint I understand why they made it a visual change, but it clearly was never meant to be one. But maybe they'll go back and have Goku interiorize it or something, instead of displaying it.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by LightBing » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:43 am

Sanity's_Theif wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:58 am I wish they let AT make this just a Piccolo movie. It was clearly designed to be that way, and I love all the parts Piccolo plays in the movie. Gohan is just so boring of a character. He's still just the same 1 trick pony after all these years. He slacks off, then oh hold up, he pulls a random power up out of his ass last second. He's just a tired cliché and he detracts from the movie. Piccolo and even Pan are so much more interesting and I wish they would involve them more and leave Gohan out of this, he wants to be a scholar, that has no place in a show about fighting.
Ditto.

Gohan added no value to the movie, he was the trademark of Super in all mediums: nostalgia with a new coat of paint. Money dictates too much unfortunately and the safe bet is never to try new things.

It brought the movie a bit down for me. But sidelining Goku/Vegeta was so great that I let it slide, specially since he didn't detract from Piccolo that much. This was his movie from beginning to end.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:13 am

I do gotta mirror sentiments about Gohan's role.

The movie shows a lot of the DNA of being a solo Piccolo-centric film, and the best parts involve him having to deal with things without the help of Gohan, Goku, or Vegeta.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:39 am

jjbgood wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:28 pmNow beast gohan just looks ridicolous with that long ass spikey hair. its like a parody of dragon ball.
And this doesn't?

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/drago ... 0509031425

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Zephyr » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:26 am

Luso Saiyan wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:59 am
Zephyr wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:38 pmOkay, if we're talking about visual buildup, then fair enough. Though I'm not sure I'd put Beast Mode or Ultra Instinct as having less visual buildup than Super Saiyan God or Blue, neither of which have any visual buildup. And on that note, the original Super Saiyan transformation has no visual buildup with what came before it. What's the explanation for why their hair turns gold?
Super Saiyan was talked about for a while, and the transformation showed what a Super Saiyan really is.

Super Saiyan God is a consequence of undergoing a specific ritual, something that was explained, had its own lore and we did see. Blue is just the Super Saiyan equivament of a Saiyan with god ki. All of this was thoroughly explained. We know why it happened and why it couldn't have happened before (although they want back on all that stuff afterwards).

Ultra Instinct was a concept that was meant to be apart from a transformation. I mean, from a marketing standpoint I understand why they made it a visual change, but it clearly was never meant to be one. But maybe they'll go back and have Goku interiorize it or something, instead of displaying it.
Yeah, there's narrative buildup for Super Saiyan throughout its debut arc, sufficient narrative buildup for Super Saiyan God within its own film, and the mechanics of Blue make enough sense. Though with Blue one could easily make the case that adding Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God would be redundant, with Super Saiyan already implied to be present by the name. But it's sillier that way and I'm down.

Regardless, if we're indeed talking about visual buildup, then in those terms the appearance of all three is totally random and without explanation or buildup. Why is Super Saiyan gold, and not some other color? Why is God red, and not some other color? Why does a red haired form combined with a gold haired form result in a blue haired form? It's all rather visually arbitrary, and I'm okay with that.

As for things being transformations when they don't necessarily need to be, just as there's no reason Ultra Instinct's ideas had to manifest as a transformation, the same is true for Super Saiyan. Up until it's shown to actually be a transformation, there's nothing that suggests that it would need to be one. There's no reason that Goku having god ki would necessitate a visual change. There's no reason Gohan having all of his potential unlocked would make his eyes fully outlined and make his neck thicc. In addition to being effective "from a marketing standpoint", a visual change also helps to communicate to the reader/viewer that such a change happened (especially in a story for children). I don't see making use of visual shorthand as a problem.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Kagari » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:37 am

Sanity's_Theif wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:58 am I wish they let AT make this just a Piccolo movie. It was clearly designed to be that way, and I love all the parts Piccolo plays in the movie. Gohan is just so boring of a character. He's still just the same 1 trick pony after all these years. He slacks off, then oh hold up, he pulls a random power up out of his ass last second. He's just a tired cliché and he detracts from the movie. Piccolo and even Pan are so much more interesting and I wish they would involve them more and leave Gohan out of this, he wants to be a scholar, that has no place in a show about fighting.
It was never going to "just be a Piccolo movie" anyway. Early ideas still had Gohan and co. fighting alongside Piccolo on Earth. The main difference is that during said planning they made Gohan one of the protagonists instead, which is why the plot revolves around Gohan getting into the main action and Gohan's role in the film is setup from Piccolo's very first scene (Gohan having the potential to be the strongest and Pan wanting to see her dad fight).
LightBing wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:40 pm I really liked the movie. The worst is Gohan's storyline which going by interviews the relevance of the character was suggested by others.

It's the type of story that didn't even need stakes so high. I feel like the fans appreciate focus on others characters, slice of life and more comedy.

I for sure do. I would eat up an anime/manga of Kuririn doing his policing, Pan and Piccolo shenanigans, Videl teaching martial arts, etc...
The movie was produced in a cooperative effort between Toriyama and his editors. Just because someone (Iyoku) suggested something, doesn't make it any less valid when the script went back and forth between all parties for two years. The previous movie, Broly, also happened because it was suggested to Toriyama and developed between him and his editors. That's just how these movies work. This idea that Gohan was somehow tacked on is patently false and has become such a dishonest narrative among the fanbase. Disliking his role is fine, but the misinformation going around is really grating.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by LightBing » Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:26 pm

Kagari wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:37 am The movie was produced in a cooperative effort between Toriyama and his editors. Just because someone (Iyoku) suggested something, doesn't make it any less valid when the script went back and forth between all parties for two years. The previous movie, Broly, also happened because it was suggested to Toriyama and developed between him and his editors. That's just how these movies work. This idea that Gohan was somehow tacked on is patently false and has become such a dishonest narrative among the fanbase. Disliking his role is fine, but the misinformation going around is really grating.
Another note on the earliest conceptions just having Piccolo as the main character. Iyoku had to try really hard to plant the idea in Toriyama’s mind that Gohan should get a main role too. Early conceptions just had him fighting alongside Picc.

Source: https://twitter.com/Cipher_db/status/1 ... 7597913090

There's no narrative going on. Gohan's main role had to be "planted" into Toriyama's mind.

Suggesting ideas is one thing, insisting on a specific influential plot is another. I think Toriyama is at his best when edited by competent people.

There's probably a lot of his recent work that is better because someone said something. This in particular isn't the case.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Kagari » Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:38 pm

LightBing wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:26 pm
Kagari wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:37 am The movie was produced in a cooperative effort between Toriyama and his editors. Just because someone (Iyoku) suggested something, doesn't make it any less valid when the script went back and forth between all parties for two years. The previous movie, Broly, also happened because it was suggested to Toriyama and developed between him and his editors. That's just how these movies work. This idea that Gohan was somehow tacked on is patently false and has become such a dishonest narrative among the fanbase. Disliking his role is fine, but the misinformation going around is really grating.
Another note on the earliest conceptions just having Piccolo as the main character. Iyoku had to try really hard to plant the idea in Toriyama’s mind that Gohan should get a main role too. Early conceptions just had him fighting alongside Picc.

Source: https://twitter.com/Cipher_db/status/1 ... 7597913090

There's no narrative going on. Gohan's main role had to be "planted" into Toriyama's mind.

Suggesting ideas is one thing, insisting on a specific influential plot is another. I think Toriyama is at his best when edited by competent people.

There's probably a lot of his recent work that is better because someone said something. This in particular isn't the case.
And Toriyama still agreed to it in the end, going so far as to design a new form and name it himself. As I said, the development of the script was a collaborative effort because that's how they're doing things both here and before with Broly - all ideas were valid because they made it into the final products. Like it's doubtful Toriyama wanted Gogeta in the last film but he's there anyway and that's the way it is. It's not about editor competence or not when Dragon Room is still steering the ship.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by TheMikado » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:20 pm

Kagari wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:38 pm
LightBing wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:26 pm
Kagari wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:37 am The movie was produced in a cooperative effort between Toriyama and his editors. Just because someone (Iyoku) suggested something, doesn't make it any less valid when the script went back and forth between all parties for two years. The previous movie, Broly, also happened because it was suggested to Toriyama and developed between him and his editors. That's just how these movies work. This idea that Gohan was somehow tacked on is patently false and has become such a dishonest narrative among the fanbase. Disliking his role is fine, but the misinformation going around is really grating.
Another note on the earliest conceptions just having Piccolo as the main character. Iyoku had to try really hard to plant the idea in Toriyama’s mind that Gohan should get a main role too. Early conceptions just had him fighting alongside Picc.

Source: https://twitter.com/Cipher_db/status/1 ... 7597913090

There's no narrative going on. Gohan's main role had to be "planted" into Toriyama's mind.

Suggesting ideas is one thing, insisting on a specific influential plot is another. I think Toriyama is at his best when edited by competent people.

There's probably a lot of his recent work that is better because someone said something. This in particular isn't the case.
And Toriyama still agreed to it in the end, going so far as to design a new form and name it himself. As I said, the development of the script was a collaborative effort because that's how they're doing things both here and before with Broly - all ideas were valid because they made it into the final products. Like it's doubtful Toriyama wanted Gogeta in the last film but he's there anyway and that's the way it is. It's not about editor competence or not when Dragon Room is still steering the ship.
Toriyama is probably trolling at this point because his fans hold him in such high regard that his work is infallible.

He probably knew it was terrible and is getting a kick out of the fact that nobody was brave enough or was too star-struck to pushback.

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