Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:04 pm

If someone is invested enough to pay a ticket to go watch a "DBS movie", it's safe to say they were also invested enough to watch a weekly anime for free.

Thus, it makes sense that the movies Canonically continue the events of the anime, without referencing the events of a monthly manga that a lot of people might not know about (since it was never advertised as a main product).

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:35 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:30 am I think this clears up the continuities....

1.- Anime Super - Broly Movie - Super Hero

2.- Manga Super

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I don't think it actually does and I think if you actually read that post, it skirts heavily around specifying any thing remote to canon. No this isn't like the original DBZ movies where they were clearly made soley for festival showing and simply recreated moments of the anime, but these movies can't be held to any canon because of the development of actually making a single movie takes years. And it would be kind of dumb to force Toyo and Tori to be held to maintaining any canon with movies.

If Broly was supposed to be canon with the anime, why wasn't Ultra Instinct used to take down Broly? I mean the answer is because, Broly was more than likely in development before Ultra Instinct was even in consideration. Also...if the Broly movie was meant to be canon to the anime....then why does it feature the onscreen introduction of Super Saiyan God Vegeta, a form that was pretty much exclusive to the manga. I'm sure people have head canon and whatever, but the fact there is Broly(and any future movie) borrows concepts from both the manga and the anime because it wants to be as accessible to as many people as possible.

Like I keep saying, Super Hero will more than likely borrow concepts from both the anime and the manga, but I guarantee that it will not contain any hints over what Dragonball's future will be, and if Toyotaro does take elements from the movie, he will more than likely recontextualize them to fit whatever story he is telling.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:26 am

kemuri07 wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:35 pm If Broly was supposed to be canon with the anime, why wasn't Ultra Instinct used to take down Broly? I mean the answer is because, Broly was more than likely in development before Ultra Instinct was even in consideration. Also...if the Broly movie was meant to be canon to the anime....then why does it feature the onscreen introduction of Super Saiyan God Vegeta, a form that was pretty much exclusive to the manga. I'm sure people have head canon and whatever, but the fact there is Broly(and any future movie) borrows concepts from both the manga and the anime because it wants to be as accessible to as many people as possible.

Like I keep saying, Super Hero will more than likely borrow concepts from both the anime and the manga, but I guarantee that it will not contain any hints over what Dragonball's future will be, and if Toyotaro does take elements from the movie, he will more than likely recontextualize them to fit whatever story he is telling.
Because in the anime it was made clear that goku never mastered the ultra instinct nor was he able to access it by will unlike the manga and the most important thing was that gogeta had to appear in it

It doesn't really matter if ssj blue exists even ssj god is something logical... but something that is relevant is that goku remembered the warriors with whom he fought in the tournament and there was kefla and ribrianne who only fought in the anime

consider that currently vegeta starts talking about the excess of meditation that only jiren did in the anime as a relevant argument for a future training in the movie

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:06 am

Tai Lung wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:26 am
kemuri07 wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:35 pm If Broly was supposed to be canon with the anime, why wasn't Ultra Instinct used to take down Broly? I mean the answer is because, Broly was more than likely in development before Ultra Instinct was even in consideration. Also...if the Broly movie was meant to be canon to the anime....then why does it feature the onscreen introduction of Super Saiyan God Vegeta, a form that was pretty much exclusive to the manga. I'm sure people have head canon and whatever, but the fact there is Broly(and any future movie) borrows concepts from both the manga and the anime because it wants to be as accessible to as many people as possible.

Like I keep saying, Super Hero will more than likely borrow concepts from both the anime and the manga, but I guarantee that it will not contain any hints over what Dragonball's future will be, and if Toyotaro does take elements from the movie, he will more than likely recontextualize them to fit whatever story he is telling.
Because in the anime it was made clear that goku never mastered the ultra instinct nor was he able to access it by will unlike the manga and the most important thing was that gogeta had to appear in it

It doesn't really matter if ssj blue exists even ssj god is something logical... but something that is relevant is that goku remembered the warriors with whom he fought in the tournament and there was kefla and ribrianne who only fought in the anime

consider that currently vegeta starts talking about the excess of meditation that only jiren did in the anime as a relevant argument for a future training in the movie
See that's the head canon I' m talking about in an effort to make it work within an existing canon that I don't think its there. DBS Broly was announced in 2017, and there's a good chance that production for the film started back in 2016 or even 2015. Unless the plan was to always have Ultra Instince--which I doubt because that would assume that Dragon Ball Super had any type of plan--the logical reasoning is that Ultra Instinct doesn't happen in the movie because Ultra Instinct wasn't a thing when they were producing it. And by the time that the series was hyping that form up, Broly was probably well into development that they couldn't really do anything about it.

What that post is saying is not that there is a manga continuity and an anime continuity, its saying that these movies are made vague enough that you can kinda slot them in anywhere in either continuity. These movies are made specifically to appeal to both audiences because, hey, Toei likes money, and whether you're a manga fan or an anime fan--your money spends the same.

So there is enough wiggle room that they can eke out an explanation or two for the kids who go crazy for canon, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Because there is none. There's an anime canon, there's a manga canon, and there are the movies that take things from both versions.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Luso Saiyan » Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:57 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:06 amThere's an anime canon, there's a manga canon, and there are the movies that take things from both versions.
What exactly do the movies take exclusively from the Super manga?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:03 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:30 pm Did this movie really need to give Piccolo not just one, but two new forms?
Maybe not, but I assume that creating an intermediate form that allows Piccolo to take on high tier level opponents while saving a form that actually puts him on the same level as them makes it easier to develop fights. You don't just have 8 or 80, Piccolo being SSJ2 level and then jumping to God level, you have a power level in the middle that allows the writers to play around with character levels and make them get better as the fight progresses. It's similar to how apparently the idea was to just make Goku fight in his normal and Blue state, but then they went back to using the othet SSJ forms. On their own, perhaps the use of these forms is no longer necessary, but with this writing the fight makes it easier for the spectator to put the opponents' level in perspective.
Luso Saiyan wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:57 pm What exactly do the movies take exclusively from the Super manga?
In Broly's case, IIRC there is a scan that directly referenced the manga when introducing SSG Vegeta. As for Super Hero, there are some ideas very similar to what the manga has presented in the past. Adult Gohan wearing Piccolo's clothes, Piccolo's giant form returning, Dragon Balls being used as a source of power ups for the characters. Jiren's philosophy that Vegeta presents in the movie also appears to be straight up taken from his dialogue in the manga.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Luso Saiyan » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:03 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:03 pmIn Broly's case, IIRC there is a scan that directly referenced the manga when introducing SSG Vegeta. As for Super Hero, there are some ideas very similar to what the manga has presented in the past. Adult Gohan wearing Piccolo's clothes, Piccolo's giant form returning, Dragon Balls being used as a source of power ups for the characters. Jiren's philosophy that Vegeta presents in the movie also appears to be straight up taken from his dialogue in the manga.
That's arguably from the manga, and it's very tangential stuff. There's nothing that's actually taken from the manga itself. And definitely nothing that the audience wouldn't get from just the anime.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:54 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:03 pmPiccolo's giant form returning
Yet it completely conflicts with the Moro arc where the giant form returned.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:01 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:03 pm In Broly's case, IIRC there is a scan that directly referenced the manga when introducing SSG Vegeta. As for Super Hero, there are some ideas very similar to what the manga has presented in the past. Adult Gohan wearing Piccolo's clothes, Piccolo's giant form returning, Dragon Balls being used as a source of power ups for the characters. Jiren's philosophy that Vegeta presents in the movie also appears to be straight up taken from his dialogue in the manga.
that is taken out of context ... jiren never stayed meditating in the manga that is something exclusive to the anime

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:10 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:54 am Yet it completely conflicts with the Moro arc where the giant form returned.
That's not the point tho. I'm talking about the use of these ideas (because the execution has conflicted with both manga and anime anyway, the movie is its own continuity). Obviously in the end we have no way of actually knowing where these ideas were taken from (unless this is explicitly stated as happened with SSG Vegeta), but I'm pointing out similarities.
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:01 pm that is taken out of context ... jiren never stayed meditating in the manga that is something exclusive to the anime
That doesn't matter. Meditation was Vegeta's way of training his mind to be able to perform the same principles that Jiren showed. Look at what Vegeta said (Super Hero novel):

"There's no waste at all in the way that he uses his power. Haven't you noticed? Starting an attack all of a sudden prevents it from being read by your opponent and it also generates a huge explosive output. It also helps in preserving your stamina. Jiren is most likely doing it instinctively. That is why for someone like me, who can't do the same, training inside your mind is the first step to take."


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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:08 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:10 pm That doesn't matter. Meditation was Vegeta's way of training his mind to be able to perform the same principles that Jiren showed. Look at what Vegeta said (Super Hero novel):

"There's no waste at all in the way that he uses his power. Haven't you noticed? Starting an attack all of a sudden prevents it from being read by your opponent and it also generates a huge explosive output. It also helps in preserving your stamina. Jiren is most likely doing it instinctively. That is why for someone like me, who can't do the same, training inside your mind is the first step to take."

It matters for the matter how Vegeta will come to this conclusion... since Jiren doesn't say the method....

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:16 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:08 pm It matters for the matter how Vegeta will come to this conclusion... since Jiren doesn't say the method....
Not really seeing how this disproves anything. Vegeta doesn't say he's meditating because he saw Jiren do it (anime version), that's just the way he found to train the mind and to be able to put the same methods into practice. Yes, we can assume that Vegeta implied that Jiren needed to meditate to get to that point, but it's never been said that manga Jiren didn't do the same tho? Meditation is a common way of training the mind in Dragon Ball, it's not really new. I'm specifically talking about Jiren's philosophy mentioned in the movie anyway, it's pretty similar to his line during the manga version of the Tournament of Power.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:26 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:16 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:08 pm It matters for the matter how Vegeta will come to this conclusion... since Jiren doesn't say the method....
Not really seeing how this disproves anything. Vegeta doesn't say he's meditating because he saw Jiren do it (anime version), that's just the way he found to train the mind and to be able to put the same methods into practice. Yes, we can assume that Vegeta implied that Jiren needed to meditate to get to that point, but it's never been said that manga Jiren didn't do the same tho? Meditation is a common way of training the mind in Dragon Ball, it's not really new. I'm specifically talking about Jiren's philosophy mentioned in the movie anyway, it's pretty similar to his line during the manga version of the Tournament of Power.
Goku literally tells Vegeta to stop meditating... to start training and Vegeta replies that he is doing mental training that way....

That's why I say the dialogue is taken out of context because as much as the dialogue looks like... it's not in fact because only in the anime could he see jiren using that mental training...

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:20 pm

Is Dr. Hedo and Magenta being alive after the Buu saga a plot hole if they are bad guys? With Pilaf, he was never truly evil and Ginyu was just a frog.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jul 08, 2022 4:55 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:20 pm Is Dr. Hedo and Magenta being alive after the Buu saga a plot hole if they are bad guys? With Pilaf, he was never truly evil and Ginyu was just a frog.
Dr. Hedo isn't too hard to believe given that he was never a bad person, just a bit blasé about consequences.

Magenta is definitely harder to understand, but then a lot of bad people seem to have survived. Maybe a retcon is in order to explain that the wish just brought back everyone in general.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:32 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:20 pm Is Dr. Hedo and Magenta being alive after the Buu saga a plot hole if they are bad guys? With Pilaf, he was never truly evil and Ginyu was just a frog.
Pretty sure that they didn't have the Boo arc in mind when making Super Hero, it was most likely not considered
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by CashmanX » Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:52 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:32 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:20 pm Is Dr. Hedo and Magenta being alive after the Buu saga a plot hole if they are bad guys? With Pilaf, he was never truly evil and Ginyu was just a frog.
Pretty sure that they didn't have the Boo arc in mind when making Super Hero, it was most likely not considered
I feel like that wish was worded vaguely enough that I could see Porunga thinking they were talking Bobbidi and his minions and the gunmen that shot Bee/Satan.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:58 am


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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:19 pm

Saigo Gohan, specifically. With Saigo=最後=end\last\final.

It was most likely just a working term, not a form name

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:05 pm

The Beast form existing in the film's storyboard with a placeholder name does make me think on if it was decided Gohan would transform at the end of the story beforehand to which then Toriyama was tasked with designing the form & naming it after/at a later date, rather than it being something he came up/designed/named (with Toei) when writing up the story/script/etc

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