Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat May 22, 2021 1:37 am

That can easily fix this issue of having to wait a whole month every single time. Many fans as of recently (myself certainly included) have been complaining for a long time now that the Manga progresses too slow and simply takes too long to release. Having to wait a whole month every single time is just not worth it. Many fans have also speculated that this is because Toyotaro is incapable of finishing it weekly or bi-weekly. So since he’s a solo guy, he needs a whole month to complete it.

So my question then is...

Why don’t they simply hire 3 additional drawers???

That way, Toyotaro and Toriyama can focus mainly on the writing aspect of the story itself, and only draw a few panels here and there.

(That would make 4 drawers in total, including Toyotaro!)

What do you guys think?

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sat May 22, 2021 5:43 am

When Dragon Ball was weekly we got about 14 pages each week and we're currently getting 45 pages a month, so Toyo would only have to make 3 extra pages a week to match Toriyamas original pace, or make 11 page chapters. He could easily bump it up to 14 pages a week by making certain panels full page or double page spreads

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat May 22, 2021 6:18 am

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 5:43 am When Dragon Ball was weekly we got about 14 pages each week and we're currently getting 45 pages a month, so Toyo would only have to make 3 extra pages a week to match Toriyamas original pace, or make 11 page chapters. He could easily bump it up to 14 pages a week by making certain panels full page or double page spreads
Even if we’d get way less than 45 images as you examplified (and he works all by himself without hiring new drawers), then we’d still be getting at least SOMETHING every single week. So the wait is almost insignificant and we have something to look forward to every single week. (Let’s say 11 pages a week), I’d definitely take it!

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by sangofe » Sat May 22, 2021 7:47 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:37 am That can easily fix this issue of having to wait a whole month every single time. Many fans as of recently (myself certainly included) have been complaining for a long time now that the Manga progresses too slow and simply takes too long to release. Having to wait a whole month every single time is just not worth it. Many fans have also speculated that this is because Toyotaro is incapable of finishing it weekly or bi-weekly. So since he’s a solo guy, he needs a whole month to complete it.

So my question then is...

Why don’t they simply hire 3 additional drawers???

That way, Toyotaro and Toriyama can focus mainly on the writing aspect of the story itself, and only draw a few panels here and there.

(That would make 4 drawers in total, including Toyotaro!)

What do you guys think?
I think it'd suck because the art styles would obviously not be identical.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by Kodoshin » Sat May 22, 2021 9:01 am

It's not just a math thing. The pacing of the story being told would have to be different, but also they might have a belief that the resurgence of the series would be negatively impacted by going weekly. They might have a belief that their interests are better served by a slow burn. There's a lot to consider with properties like this beyond the surface level.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by Cipher » Sat May 22, 2021 9:58 am

It isn’t monthly because of Toyotaro. It’s monthly because it’s a sequel series to a Jump property that already had its day, and those go in V-Jump to leave room in the weekly magazine for original, author-helmed work, and V-Jump is a monthly magazine.

(Also arguably no series should be on a weekly schedule, for the health of the artists.)

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sat May 22, 2021 11:52 am

Cipher wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:58 am (Also arguably no series should be on a weekly schedule, for the health of the artists.)
I read somewhere that Oda was hospitalized from overworking and not sleeping or eating enough, it must be stressful trying to meet weekly deadlines and produce good content. American comic artists only do one issue a month, I can't imagine doing it weekly.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat May 22, 2021 2:34 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 11:52 am
Cipher wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:58 am (Also arguably no series should be on a weekly schedule, for the health of the artists.)
I read somewhere that Oda was hospitalized from overworking and not sleeping or eating enough, it must be stressful trying to meet weekly deadlines and produce good content. American comic artists only do one issue a month, I can't imagine doing it weekly.
This is precisely why I proposed the possibility of hiring 3 additional drawers.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun May 23, 2021 10:23 am

Cipher wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:58 am It isn’t monthly because of Toyotaro. It’s monthly because it’s a sequel series to a Jump property that already had its day, and those go in V-Jump to leave room in the weekly magazine for original, author-helmed work, and V-Jump is a monthly magazine.

(Also arguably no series should be on a weekly schedule, for the health of the artists.)
Yep, this is it. None of the artists have any control over the schedule.

Getting more artists won't magically make the content better or reduce the workload of Toyotaro and Toriyama, if anything it's gonna multiply it. Toriyama would have to oversee the work of three additional artists and they would all have to be constantly coordinating with each other to maintain any sense of consistency. If we suddenly get Garrow Lee and Ooishi or whoever else throwing their lot in as well, it's gonna lose Toyotaro's artistic coherence.

Waiting a month ultimately isn't that bad. Compared to waiting eons for the next Frank Ocean record or something, it's nothing.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon May 24, 2021 2:15 pm

Cipher wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:58 am It isn’t monthly because of Toyotaro. It’s monthly because it’s a sequel series to a Jump property that already had its day, and those go in V-Jump to leave room in the weekly magazine for original, author-helmed work, and V-Jump is a monthly magazine.

(Also arguably no series should be on a weekly schedule, for the health of the artists.)
They could easily transport it over to Weekly Shonen Jump and then hire more drawers or have Toyotaro release only 11 images a week.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by Aim » Mon May 24, 2021 8:22 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:37 am That can easily fix this issue of having to wait a whole month every single time. Many fans as of recently (myself certainly included) have been complaining for a long time now that the Manga progresses too slow and simply takes too long to release. Having to wait a whole month every single time is just not worth it. Many fans have also speculated that this is because Toyotaro is incapable of finishing it weekly or bi-weekly. So since he’s a solo guy, he needs a whole month to complete it.

So my question then is...

Why don’t they simply hire 3 additional drawers???

That way, Toyotaro and Toriyama can focus mainly on the writing aspect of the story itself, and only draw a few panels here and there.

(That would make 4 drawers in total, including Toyotaro!)

What do you guys think?
Because the art would be inconsistent.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by VegettoEX » Mon May 24, 2021 8:39 pm

I'm not sure if you're actually reading the responses people are giving you, because you're repeating the same questions/points seemingly in a vacuum.

Cipher already summed it up perfectly from a production-ideology standpoint (this is not the original/main series anymore, this magazine is where sequel series by successors go to live and die, and it's monthly), and everyone else has summed it up with regard to everything else like exponential increases in style cohesion problems, workflow/oversight inefficiencies, etc.

Throwing more people at a "problem" (if you want to consider this a "problem"? Which I don't?) doesn't always "fix" it. You just create different problems in the process.

For this series and at this time with these people and for what they're looking to get out of it, this is what they're doing. Dragon Ball had its day. These are the twilight years. (They're arguably the hospice years.) This is how it goes.

Regardless of what you think about his work, I think it’s impossible to overstate and not be at least a tiny impressed how in a decade’s time we’ve gone from Toyo doing two pages per month to 45 pages per month PLUS promotional art PLUS covers PLUS character designs.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by Skar » Mon May 24, 2021 11:06 pm

Has there ever been a professional manga that had more that one artist? I imagine fans would rather have one consistent artstyle plus having multiple artists would be difficult to coordinate. Even the classic mangas that go on frequent hiatuses haven't tried hiring more artists.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue May 25, 2021 6:03 am

I read your points. I really did. But in my defense, you have to understand that things are only the way they are because several powerful corporations / people have collectively agreed to do it the way they’ve chosen it to do.

(Meaning, they, collectively, can change any and all rules if all parties involved agreed.)

That is all I will add. Thank you for your replies.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by Cipher » Tue May 25, 2021 6:35 am

I think part of the issue is just coming at this from the assumption that Shueisha has any vested interested in moving the series weekly in the first place. For the amount of resources (and trend-bucking in a way domestic readers probably wouldn't be accepting of, like rotating artist teams) they would need to move the series weekly, into a magazine or online space they'd rather use for new titles, when DB can already coast on sequel manga and films, it just doesn't make any sense.

DB Super is like the textbook example of a series made for V-Jump, much like Boruto or any of the Yu-Gi-Oh sequels it runs alongside. They do well by having the series in some form, to help move that sister magazine and to keep more media pillars of those proven successes alive, but they don't need to, and would even be self-cannibalizing to, do anything more than that.

To shift into another medium by analogy--they don't need to invest in blockbuster films (under a different director when they'd probably never recapture the same success of the original, but would be taking resources away from new projects that might) when direct-to-video sequels are doing them fine as far as their needs for the IP.

I enjoy the Super manga for what it is, but what it is is that direct-to-video sequel to DB, in the direct-to-video sequel magazine. The Japanese manga industry is such that short of Toriyama stepping into the ring to draw the follow-up himself, that's all it was ever going to make sense to have it be.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by HeroR » Tue May 25, 2021 10:48 am

Cipher wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:35 am I think part of the issue is just coming at this from the assumption that Shueisha has any vested interested in moving the series weekly in the first place. For the amount of resources (and trend-bucking in a way domestic readers probably wouldn't be accepting of, like rotating artist teams) they would need to move the series weekly, into a magazine or online space they'd rather use for new titles, when DB can already coast on sequel manga and films, it just doesn't make any sense.

DB Super is like the textbook example of a series made for V-Jump, much like Boruto or any of the Yu-Gi-Oh sequels it runs alongside. They do well by having the series in some form, to help move that sister magazine and to keep more media pillars of those proven successes alive, but they don't need to, and would even be self-cannibalizing to, do anything more than that.

To shift into another medium by analogy--they don't need to invest in blockbuster films (under a different director when they'd probably never recapture the same success of the original, but would be taking resources away from new projects that might) when direct-to-video sequels are doing them fine as far as their needs for the IP.

I enjoy the Super manga for what it is, but what it is is that direct-to-video sequel to DB, in the direct-to-video sequel magazine. The Japanese manga industry is such that short of Toriyama stepping into the ring to draw the follow-up himself, that's all it was ever going to make sense to have it be.
From my understanding, it's more that the Super manga isn't that popular (this isn't to say that it isn't popular, but it doesn't break records either). Most Dragon Ball fans in Japan sees it as Toyo's Dragon Ball. Also not helping that the manga gets almost next to no exposure so a lot of fans even in Japan actually don't even know that manga version of Super exists.
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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by FlpShimizu » Tue May 25, 2021 10:58 am

HeroR wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:48 am
Cipher wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:35 am I think part of the issue is just coming at this from the assumption that Shueisha has any vested interested in moving the series weekly in the first place. For the amount of resources (and trend-bucking in a way domestic readers probably wouldn't be accepting of, like rotating artist teams) they would need to move the series weekly, into a magazine or online space they'd rather use for new titles, when DB can already coast on sequel manga and films, it just doesn't make any sense.

DB Super is like the textbook example of a series made for V-Jump, much like Boruto or any of the Yu-Gi-Oh sequels it runs alongside. They do well by having the series in some form, to help move that sister magazine and to keep more media pillars of those proven successes alive, but they don't need to, and would even be self-cannibalizing to, do anything more than that.

To shift into another medium by analogy--they don't need to invest in blockbuster films (under a different director when they'd probably never recapture the same success of the original, but would be taking resources away from new projects that might) when direct-to-video sequels are doing them fine as far as their needs for the IP.

I enjoy the Super manga for what it is, but what it is is that direct-to-video sequel to DB, in the direct-to-video sequel magazine. The Japanese manga industry is such that short of Toriyama stepping into the ring to draw the follow-up himself, that's all it was ever going to make sense to have it be.
From my understanding, it's more that the Super manga isn't that popular (this isn't to say that it isn't popular, but it doesn't break records either). Most Dragon Ball fans in Japan sees it as Toyo's Dragon Ball. Also not helping that the manga gets almost next to no exposure so a lot of fans even in Japan actually don't even know that manga version of Super exists.
That's some very interesting data and social analysis. Do you have links or interviews with the japanese fans? Also, is the manga a failure from a sales perspective? I'd love to read more about it.
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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by HeroR » Tue May 25, 2021 11:24 am

FlpShimizu wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:58 am
HeroR wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:48 am
Cipher wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:35 am I think part of the issue is just coming at this from the assumption that Shueisha has any vested interested in moving the series weekly in the first place. For the amount of resources (and trend-bucking in a way domestic readers probably wouldn't be accepting of, like rotating artist teams) they would need to move the series weekly, into a magazine or online space they'd rather use for new titles, when DB can already coast on sequel manga and films, it just doesn't make any sense.

DB Super is like the textbook example of a series made for V-Jump, much like Boruto or any of the Yu-Gi-Oh sequels it runs alongside. They do well by having the series in some form, to help move that sister magazine and to keep more media pillars of those proven successes alive, but they don't need to, and would even be self-cannibalizing to, do anything more than that.

To shift into another medium by analogy--they don't need to invest in blockbuster films (under a different director when they'd probably never recapture the same success of the original, but would be taking resources away from new projects that might) when direct-to-video sequels are doing them fine as far as their needs for the IP.

I enjoy the Super manga for what it is, but what it is is that direct-to-video sequel to DB, in the direct-to-video sequel magazine. The Japanese manga industry is such that short of Toriyama stepping into the ring to draw the follow-up himself, that's all it was ever going to make sense to have it be.
From my understanding, it's more that the Super manga isn't that popular (this isn't to say that it isn't popular, but it doesn't break records either). Most Dragon Ball fans in Japan sees it as Toyo's Dragon Ball. Also not helping that the manga gets almost next to no exposure so a lot of fans even in Japan actually don't even know that manga version of Super exists.
That's some very interesting data and social analysis. Do you have links or interviews with the japanese fans? Also, is the manga a failure from a sales perspective? I'd love to read more about it.
It's not really data so much from what I've heard from people who lived in Japan or speak Japanese since I follow Dokkan and Legends so I know more than a few Dragon Ball fans overseas or can at least read Japanese forums. Overall, they all more or less say the same thing. The Super manga isn't super popular (this is again not saying it isn't popular). It does good sells since the data I found put the manga tankōbon average over 150k. However, if you look at past Super manga sells, you do noticed a decline:

The manga's tankōbon volumes 1 and 2 sold 594,342 copies as of June 2017
volume 3 sold 236,720 copies as of July 2017
volume 4 sold 267,417 copies as of November 2017
volume 5 sold 400,000 copies as of April 2018
volume 6 sold 216,871 copies as of June 2018
volume 7 sold 208,796 copies as of September 2018
volume 8 sold 314,269 copies as of January 2019
volume 9 sold 188,027 copies as of April 2019
volume 10 sold 196,204 copies as of August 2019
volume 11 sold 119,283 copies as of December 2019
volume 12 sold 146,305 copies as of April 2020
volume 13 sold 155,095 copies as of August 2020
volume 14 sold 95,101 copies as of December 2020
volume 15 sold 150,971 copies as of April 2021

Noticeably, the manga's tankōbon decline around Volume 9, although it did bump up slightly for Volume 10, it never recovered its peak because before it was closer to 200-250k. So this speaks to the Super manga doing good sells, but nothing gangbusters and it went down from its best. This is added by the general lack of advisement for the manga outside of the manga circles. Namely, no character from the Super manga made an appearance anywhere else, not even Dragon Ball Heroes as just a promotional card. And manga exclusive stuff like Super Saiyan Black has never been used, which I don't get that since that is such easy money. Although, it does get nods like Hakai SSB Goku and Jiren acknowledging Roshi. So the casual Dragon Ball fan get next to no exposer to the manga.

That and the super hardcore Dragon Ball fan only really like things up to the Frieza Saga. They're not big fans of Android Saga onwards, which is why Base Goku and Vegeta were put in FighterZ since those are the most popular forms of those characters in Japan. Super for the most part is seen more like a "kid's show" as in, it draws in more newer fans than the old guard, which is why Dragon Ball's popularity exploded and surpassed One Piece in Japan because they added a bunch of newcomers. And these new fans got their exposer to Super from the anime and movie, not so much the manga which is more aimed towards the older fans manga fans who aren't big on anything past Namek anyway and don't see the Super manga as a Toriyama product, so much as Toyo's take on Dragon Ball.
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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by Skar » Tue May 25, 2021 1:26 pm

HeroR wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:48 amFrom my understanding, it's more that the Super manga isn't that popular (this isn't to say that it isn't popular, but it doesn't break records either). Most Dragon Ball fans in Japan sees it as Toyo's Dragon Ball. Also not helping that the manga gets almost next to no exposure so a lot of fans even in Japan actually don't even know that manga version of Super exists.
Does this have to do with something specific to the DBS manga or due to the nature of V-Jump and the kind of stories it's intended for? It wasn't moved to a different magazine due to declining sales and it began on one that doesn't sell that well. I recall it's one of the best selling or the best selling manga on V-Jump though. I'm not sure if any completed manga series had a spin-off or sequel by a different artist that sold more. On this list, the DBS manga is ranked #38 and I'm pretty sure the ones that outsold it were original stories.

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Re: Why don’t they simply hire more drawers for the Super Manga???

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Tue May 25, 2021 5:58 pm

Isn't Toriyama's artwork considered unique and difficult to replicate? Hiring experienced drawers would take time and effort.
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