Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

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Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:47 pm

To this day, I still see people who, when criticizing Goku's character in DBS, use the argument that ''the development he got during the fight with Frieza'' was wasted whenever he does something considered stupid, or something that put his friends in danger. The Senzu Bean thing in Moro arc is the most recent in which this has happened, but this argument is used in any other situation.

And I wonder...do you think the story implied that Goku necessarily learned something after Frieza blew up the Earth because of him? And that this is some kind of testament that he should no longer spare villains or have selfish attitudes? Because I don't see it that way, and it honestly doesn't seem any different than when Goku gave Cell a senzu bean and was criticized by Piccolo for it, and then in the next arc (Boo) he had equally selfish and dangerous attitudes. What I mean is that the nature of the character (and most of the cast) of having morally questionable attitudes from our point of view was never supposed to change, as none of them act like heroes or anything like that, and It's always possible that his priorities stand out over the greater good in dangerous situations.

Just to make it clear that the discussion is not about the senzu bean scene per se, but just whether the story necessarily implies Goku's mindset changed during these key events (or should have changed), because the argument is that he '' never learn from his mistakes'' it's also common

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by ZeroNeonix » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:32 pm

People say this? This kind of behavior is intrinsic to Goku's nature. When a foe is down and pleading for their lives, Goku has never had the heart to finish them off. He's just too kind of a person. As for giving Sensu Beans to the enemy, that's just a Saiyan thing. It's the same reason he asked Krillin to spare Vegeta's life, and why he and Vegeta refused to fuse again to fight Kid Buu. Their Saiyan pride craves a fair fight. That means fighting on equal footing, with the enemy at the top of their game. The non-Saiyan characters have always considered this to be a stupid approach to take, but it was mostly tolerated because Goku always comes out on top. Facing an enemy strong enough to beat them does put their friends in danger, but it's also the only way they can push themselves to greater heights.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:53 am

Probably because literally in the following arc he told Vegeta to kill a defeated and powerless Black who was gasping for air. He himself then tried to kill Black when he looked unconscious, and then tried to erase Fused Zamasu from existence using Hakai which, in case you didn't know, destroys the soul as well. This means that Zamasu wouldn't have even been given the chance to reform himself into a good soul, but would have straight up been deprived of the Otherworld and a future.

No matter how you spin it, Goku will have always been written inconsistently, since he saw that Black was weak, powerless, gasping for air, unconscious, etc. and he still tried to kill him/told Vegeta to kill him, and then he tried to straight up erase Zamasu from existence (the worst fate imaginable).

And, as a matter of fact, Black sincerely thought he was doing the right thing, unlike Moro who is a generic pure evil monster. So if there's anyone Goku would have wanted to spare, it should have been him.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by Yuji » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:13 am

I don't think anyone necessarily believes Goku learned anything from RoF, just that the story very explicitly points out a flaw in Goku’s approach towards fighting and overall personality that can get his friends killed (one that arguably he freed himself more and more from in the original series*, and thus comes across as an even more vitally important now that they're reinforcing it), and the story itself shows the consequences of his attitude. So the story is setting him up to learn from his mistakes, especially since he only got bailed out through Whis, who is supposed to be a morally neutral agent who has made a one time exception, and progress toward a more careful approach to fighting supervillains. To see in later arcs that he just... doesn't, makes you question why Toriyama made Goku's hubris being his downfall such a crucial theme of the movie. To reiterate: the problem isn't that Goku has flaws, as I see some folks suggesting, it's that the story explicitly acknowledged said flaws (after basically turning a blind eye or handwaving them away in the original series) and then did nothing with said observations. They have, instead, seemingly become worse and more pronounced, which would also be an interesting development if, again, they did anything with the character besides using him as a catalyst for convoluted setpieces. As it stands, they are neither writing Goku as a more responsible martial artist who acknowledges the severity of the situation at hand and takes measures to mitigate potential harm, nor as a completely selfish agent of chaos wishing to satisfy his own hunger for battle at the expense of innocents and then has to finally face the repercussions and consequences of his actions, nor the carefully balanced and exquisitely executed middle term that original series Goku worked on. He's just standing on a middle term where he's a irresponsible, foolish, untrustworthy, not dependable and arrogant. This doesn't make a likable character. Goku in the original series was simultaneously responsible and irresponsible, foolish and wise, trustworthy and untrustworthy, and dependable and not. The character has been stripped of the ambiguity that had made him interesting.

* What I mean is that although his overconfident persona has always been a facet of his character since the tail end of the Piccolo Daimao arc and arguably became more pronounced as the series went on, it is very rare in the original series where he lets his guard down against a strong opponent. To my recollection, that happens twice: against Piccolo and Majin Vegeta; the latter may be excused because the two were friends and it seemed like they had just made a truce. On almost every other occasion, Goku is alert and responsible. If we parallel the two Freeza battles, we see Goku on Namek on-guard and even despite giving Freeza chances to back away, he does it out of pity and idealism even telling him he never wants to see him again, contrasting with RoF Goku who spares him to fight again later. When Goku in the original series seemingly puts innocents in danger, he always has some moralistic rationale backing his actions. His reasons for not killing Gero and the androids? It wouldn't be ethical to kill someone who hadn't done anything yet. His reasons for allowing Boo to run rampant and sacrificing people to buy more time? They can be wished back with the dragon balls. Letting Piccolo go? God would die too. Even Vegeta, which is likely his most selfish act in the whole series, had some retroactive justification written in by the Boo arc when Vegeta says "It as if you knew I would grow a tiny speck of a heart"; granted the justification may just be on Vegeta's rationalization, but my point is that Goku's actions in the original series always had multiple reasonings backing them, or were vague enough to leave the audience wondering, they never boiled down to "I want to fight strong guys" which is what modern Goku's personality boils down to.

To add on, I think Goku in the fight against Moro was well written - it was probably the most interesting thing done with the character since BoG - and generally he is better written in the manga than in the anime but nevertheless it also seems like the character has been reduced to that one trait even there.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:34 am

Yuji wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:13 am I don't think anyone necessarily believes Goku learned anything from RoF, just that the story very explicitly points out a flaw in Goku’s approach towards fighting and overall personality that can get his friends killed (one that arguably he freed himself more and more from in the original series*, and thus comes across as an even more vitally important now that they're reinforcing it), and the story itself shows the consequences of his attitude. So the story is setting him up to learn from his mistakes, especially since he only got bailed out through Whis, who is supposed to be a morally neutral agent who has made a one time exception, and progress toward a more careful approach to fighting supervillains. To see in later arcs that he just... doesn't, makes you question why Toriyama made Goku's hubris being his downfall such a crucial theme of the movie. To reiterate: the problem isn't that Goku has flaws, as I see some folks suggesting, it's that the story explicitly acknowledged said flaws (after basically turning a blind eye or handwaving them away in the original series) and then did nothing with said observations.
I forgot to mention that particularly, this whole thing about Goku being overconfident and letting his guard down being such an important plot beat in RoF felt a lot more like a set up for Ultra Instinct (indirectly mentioned for the first time in the series during this movie, and presented as the solution to the weaknesses shown by both Goku and Vegeta during RoF) rather than a problem the writers intended to solve in the same movie (as a lesson at the end), especially since even though Goku acknowledged that they could having avoided all that mess if he and Vegeta had fought together from the start, they both agree that they would never do it anyway. And that beat plot is reinforced again during ToP, precisely in the arc where Goku uses the UI for the first time.

But I understand that if the story has recognized and presented the consequences of that flaw, it's normal for people to expect some sort of solution to it or learning in the end (although, as I said, it doesn't seem to be what the movie tried to do, besides not being something that Goku himself actively tried to correct in later arcs). The senzu bean thing was just an example, but I've also seen people using as an argument that some mistakes made by Goku during the original manga were also supposed to serve as a lesson to him, and that's why the repetition of some of those mistakes in DBS was a problem.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by BWri » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:37 am

I don't follow the idea that RoF was a turning point for Goku, but I do feel that watching the planet get vaporized (including loved ones) should've affected the characters more deeply than it did. I'm not sure why it wasn't enough to drive a fire under all of them, but I guess it was the same post Buu arc.

For Goku, the main lesson was about being more careful in combat so enemies can't exploit his vulnerabilities. In many respects, Ultra Instinct is a response to that. How do you guard your weak spots? How's about becoming unassailable.
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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by kemuri07 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:33 pm

It's a better lesson Goku learns in the manga version of how he gets UI than in the anime version. One of the things I like that Toyotaro is doing is pushing back against the series' tendencies to rely on "Ultimate Power" as its go to way for our heroes to beat its enemies. Master Roshi outright chastises Goku for forgetting his own training in his pursuit for personal power. And it's something that we constantly in the next two arcs: Moro power comes from sapping the energy from people at any given moment, Goku and Vegeta are forced to actually use strategy in how they use their powers against enemies. DB has too much baggage that it'll never shake all of its problems off, but Goku and Vegeta really benefit from the manga's focus on "technique over power."

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:18 pm

Why does anyone still believe that the series was "supposed" to end with Freeza or Cell? Some fans just have their own preconceived notions about what, when, where, and how the series & characters progress in whichever way they believe it to.
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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by Cipher » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:57 am

I just want to state for the record—without digging through to find examples—that yes, people did bring up the idea that Goku was supposed to have learned a lesson from “F”. It came up a lot as a counter-argument to people pointing out that giving Moro a Senzu had precedent in previous storylines/Goku’s characterization.

Saying those posts didn’t exist is as much a rewriting of recent history as that argument was a willful misreading of a movie that specifically ended on the character humor of Goku and Vegeta swearing to have learned nothing.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by super michael » Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:07 am

I just want to correct something Goku didn’t let his guard down against King Piccolo, King Piccolo used Tien as a hostage. Goku let his guard down against Piccolo Jr, which is fair since Piccolo Jr looked like he was knocked out.

Goku guard being down is fair, since he didn’t expect anyone or anything to KO him. Now ToP they went too far with Goku guard being too down.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by super michael » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:29 am

I can’t edit my previous post, so here is extra information.
Goku not bringing the Mafuba talisman was completely his fault, here is the proof:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EnbTIIfUBfE

Master Roshi says this “Hold on I’ll make the talisman now”.

Before that Master Roshi explains how the Mafuba works and what the talisman was for. Master Roshi tells Goku to wait, which Goku thanks Master Roshi.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:07 pm

theherodjl wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:18 pm Why does anyone still believe that the series was "supposed" to end with Freeza or Cell? Some fans just have their own preconceived notions about what, when, where, and how the series & characters progress in whichever way they believe it to.
Because Goku's arc is officially over. His entire arc is that he begins as a lowly Saiyan warrior outclassed by nearly everyone, and ends the saga as the strongest in the universe. Whether or not Toriyama meant it to be the final arc of DBZ will probably never be answered. But I dont blame people for thinking that way because it's the only saga in which each and every arc ties into each other. It's one long story.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:17 pm

Goku's character in Resurrection F was actually a turn for the worst. That's where his flanderization began.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:04 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:53 am And, as a matter of fact, Black sincerely thought he was doing the right thing, unlike Moro who is a generic pure evil monster. So if there's anyone Goku would have wanted to spare, it should have been him.
I'm curious about why this means he should be spared (and why it makes him less "generic", considering how little his motivations are fleshed out in the story). There are plenty of villains, real or fictional, that believe what they are doing is correct... but typically that makes them more dangerous and more deserving of punishment, not less.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:04 am

capsulecorp wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:04 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:53 am And, as a matter of fact, Black sincerely thought he was doing the right thing, unlike Moro who is a generic pure evil monster. So if there's anyone Goku would have wanted to spare, it should have been him.
I'm curious about why this means he should be spared (and why it makes him less "generic", considering how little his motivations are fleshed out in the story). There are plenty of villains, real or fictional, that believe what they are doing is correct... but typically that makes them more dangerous and more deserving of punishment, not less.
I didn't say he should have been "spared" (it's not like the protagonists were in the position to spare him anyway since he was always one step ahead of them), I said that, SINCE GOKU WANTS TO SPARE PEOPLE (supposedly), it would have made sense to show more hesitation towards killing Black than Moro. Since Black indeed wanted to do what was best for the cosmos in his own way, while Moro is just a generic evil monster. Usually people will feel more pity and mercy towards the misguided murderer rather than the pure evil murderer.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:22 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:04 am Usually people will feel more pity and mercy towards the misguided murderer rather than the pure evil murderer
Well, like you said, they didn't have much of a choice either way but... maybe it's because Zamasu is more of an "insane" character than a "misguided" character? Zamasu monologues a lot about creating a utopia, improving the universe and so on, but to the viewer and presumably to Goku he is clearly insane and evil and murderous. His goal is genocide! If he's misguided, its on such a fundamental moral level that he's beyond hope of redemption.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:17 am

capsulecorp wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:22 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:04 am Usually people will feel more pity and mercy towards the misguided murderer rather than the pure evil murderer
Well, like you said, they didn't have much of a choice either way but... maybe it's because Zamasu is more of an "insane" character than a "misguided" character? Zamasu monologues a lot about creating a utopia, improving the universe and so on, but to the viewer and presumably to Goku he is clearly insane and evil and murderous. His goal is genocide! If he's misguided, its on such a fundamental moral level that he's beyond hope of redemption.
That's like every other villain in Dragon Ball though :?: Moro literally only wanted to eat all lifeforms in the universe, yet Goku still tried to spare him. If I were Goku I'd definitely spare the one who at least commits genocide because he genuinely believes it's the right thing to do (from the perspective of a God).

I'm not even saying that Goku would have succeeded, because he wouldn't have (he's too stupid to understand the subjects Zamasu was talking about), but at least he could have thought about it when he literally tried to spare someone who exists only to eat people and spread misery.

Even Vegeta the deuteragonist and #1 Redeemed Hero of Dragon Ball was a very evil guy who had no problem destroying planets (like when he destroyed that insectoid planet = genocide). Goku is just hypocritical.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by capsulecorp » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:08 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:17 am That's like every other villain in Dragon Ball though
Is it? Frieza is evil but very rational, Cell basically wants the same things Goku wants, Buu and Piccolo are products of their environment while also being somewhat cursed or possessed... none of them really come off as insane to me, at least.

I also don't know if we can even assume that Zamasu does "genuinely" believe what he's doing is right. The story doesn't really spend much time on his thinking and though he does talk a lot he sorta just says the same things over and over again, so we have almost no insight into what he really believes. It seems hard to understand HOW or WHY he would think what he's doing is just... and that's why I feel like I'm stuck with the "insane" interpretation.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:13 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:08 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:17 am That's like every other villain in Dragon Ball though
Is it? Frieza is evil but very rational, Cell basically wants the same things Goku wants, Buu and Piccolo are products of their environment while also being somewhat cursed or possessed... none of them really come off as insane to me, at least.

I also don't know if we can even assume that Zamasu does "genuinely" believe what he's doing is right. The story doesn't really spend much time on his thinking and though he does talk a lot he sorta just says the same things over and over again, so we have almost no insight into what he really believes. It seems hard to understand HOW or WHY he would think what he's doing is just... and that's why I feel like I'm stuck with the "insane" interpretation.
Yeah, it is. Literally all the people you mentioned were genocidal. Frieza even committed genocide on-screen. Cell doesn't want what Goku wants, Cell wanted to terrify the entire human population because that gave him fun. Plus Goku never tried to spare Cell so I don't know why you mentioned him. Buu is literally the definition of insane, he's just a rabid monster.

If Zamasu wasn't sincere in his actions then he would have embraced Gowasu when given the chance. He was given many times the option to atone for his actions and stop his plan, he refused every time. That's because he was genuinely convinced that what he was doing was right. That doesn't mean couldn't have tried to spare him since, again, he tried to spare a goat demon whose only purpose is eating people.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by Lionel » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:10 am

I feel like if the opportunity for some option of accountability is presented in the living world then Goku sparing certain villains can be reasoned. Moro was one such example as he already had experience with being incarcerated for a considerably long period of time. Besides his outright refusal to return to the Galactic Patrol's custody, the newly endowed strength and vivacity of Moro would have presented an irreconcilable detriment for any prospects of returning him to prison. In fairness, Jaco did admit that the only reason they had allowed him to live is because they had no means of executing him (as if starvation or biologics couldn't have worked).

In the case of Freeza, I'm sure there's many who would have enjoyed the prospect of arresting and having him face justice for the immeasurable atrocities he's perpetrated with his mobocratic real estate enterprise scheme. What's the issue there, however? Same as with Moro. Although if Goku or Vegeta had been willing to paralyse or render him a vegetable then Freeza could have been safely carted off by Jaco. Such an idea doesn't seem like it would be first choice for Toriyama, in my opinion, though.

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