Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:00 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:13 pm Yeah, it is. Literally all the people you mentioned were genocidal. Frieza even committed genocide on-screen. Cell doesn't want what Goku wants, Cell wanted to terrify the entire human population because that gave him fun. Plus Goku never tried to spare Cell so I don't know why you mentioned him. Buu is literally the definition of insane, he's just a rabid monster.

If Zamasu wasn't sincere in his actions then he would have embraced Gowasu when given the chance. He was given many times the option to atone for his actions and stop his plan, he refused every time. That's because he was genuinely convinced that what he was doing was right. That doesn't mean couldn't have tried to spare him since, again, he tried to spare a goat demon whose only purpose is eating people.
Oh, no, I was responding to the idea that "every villain is insane", not that "every villain is genocidal". I don't see most villains as insane and I think even Buu has a lot more going on than simply being a rapid monster (remember the sub-plots with Mr. Satan and the "evil Buu" and so on). To be fair, you could make the case the Moro is insane, maybe, though I think it makes more sense to argue that's "he is very very hungry". Ultimately we just don't know enough about him which, to be honest, doesn't bother me much.

Anyway, as you said, Zamasu WAS given many chances to atone and repent. Whether he refused because he's blinded by his own confused ideology, or simply because he's completely insane, I suppose it doesn't matter. For me he was a deeply unsatisfying and tedious character, one of the low points of Super, sadly.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:40 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:00 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:13 pm Yeah, it is. Literally all the people you mentioned were genocidal. Frieza even committed genocide on-screen. Cell doesn't want what Goku wants, Cell wanted to terrify the entire human population because that gave him fun. Plus Goku never tried to spare Cell so I don't know why you mentioned him. Buu is literally the definition of insane, he's just a rabid monster.

If Zamasu wasn't sincere in his actions then he would have embraced Gowasu when given the chance. He was given many times the option to atone for his actions and stop his plan, he refused every time. That's because he was genuinely convinced that what he was doing was right. That doesn't mean couldn't have tried to spare him since, again, he tried to spare a goat demon whose only purpose is eating people.
Oh, no, I was responding to the idea that "every villain is insane", not that "every villain is genocidal". I don't see most villains as insane and I think even Buu has a lot more going on than simply being a rapid monster (remember the sub-plots with Mr. Satan and the "evil Buu" and so on). To be fair, you could make the case the Moro is insane, maybe, though I think it makes more sense to argue that's "he is very very hungry". Ultimately we just don't know enough about him which, to be honest, doesn't bother me much.

Anyway, as you said, Zamasu WAS given many chances to atone and repent. Whether he refused because he's blinded by his own confused ideology, or simply because he's completely insane, I suppose it doesn't matter. For me he was a deeply unsatisfying and tedious character, one of the low points of Super, sadly.
All the DB villains are insane:

- Piccolo: Insane tyrant who wants to rule over everyone and is pretty much pure evil.
- Frieza: Insane tyrant who doesn't have a problem blowing himself up to win (like he did on Namek and then again in RoF).
- Cell: Literally pure evil machine monster who wants to see people shake in fear.
- Buu: Pure insanity. He doesn't even have a personality and mannerism like Frieza and Cell, he is completely feral and wild. The Original Buu is pure evil, he does become compassionate and kind eventually but that's only because he absorbed the Grand Supreme Kai, who himself was an innocent and kind soul. We know what "Pure Buu" is, and it's pure insanity.
- Moro: I mean he's the literal Devil, his design is based on a demon.

So really was Zamasu insane? Yeah, but no one justifies his actions, of course his atrocities are inexcusable. Regardless he was the only antagonist who sincerely wanted to create a world of peace, and he was originally a hero (so he is a fallen hero), therefore Goku should have pitied him. If anything because, unlike the rest, he was originally good. Goku and Zamasu originally had the same goal: to grow stronger so that they can bring peace. It's just that Zamasu's dream became twisted, despite remaining fundamentally a dream of peace.
Anyway, as you said, Zamasu WAS given many chances to atone and repent. Whether he refused because he's blinded by his own confused ideology, or simply because he's completely insane, I suppose it doesn't matter. For me he was a deeply unsatisfying and tedious character, one of the low points of Super, sadly.
But not by Goku, I'm focusing on Goku because that's what the thread is about. Did Goku ever try to understand Zamasu or spare him (even when he was knocked unconscious)? No, he simply tried to kill him. When Moro was weak and defeated, Goku tried to spare him with a senzu bean. When Black was defeated and unconscious, Goku tried to kill him. You might say that Black wasn't actually unconscious and later on turned the tables, but Goku didn't know this. From his perspective, his opponent was down on the ground, had lost conscience, and was pretty much powerless. And he still tried to deliver a final blow. That's hypocritical behaviour.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:54 pm

So really was Zamasu insane? Yeah, but no one justifies his actions, of course his atrocities are inexcusable. Regardless he was the only antagonist who sincerely wanted to create a world of peace, and he was originally a hero (so he is a fallen hero), therefore Goku should have pitied him. If anything because, unlike the rest, he was originally good.
I suppose we'll have to disagree here. I think you're selling the other villains a little short and are a little hung up on what Zamasu "really believes" or "really meant", but that's ok. For me, the sheer magnitude of his folly is what pushes it past regular villainy and into the realm of Joker-esque insanity. Up-ending the entire godly system of the Kais because of some strange misunderstanding or confusion about mortality or purity or... something? It's hard to understand what he's thinking to be honest.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:14 am

capsulecorp wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:54 pm
So really was Zamasu insane? Yeah, but no one justifies his actions, of course his atrocities are inexcusable. Regardless he was the only antagonist who sincerely wanted to create a world of peace, and he was originally a hero (so he is a fallen hero), therefore Goku should have pitied him. If anything because, unlike the rest, he was originally good.
I suppose we'll have to disagree here. I think you're selling the other villains a little short and are a little hung up on what Zamasu "really believes" or "really meant", but that's ok. For me, the sheer magnitude of his folly is what pushes it past regular villainy and into the realm of Joker-esque insanity. Up-ending the entire godly system of the Kais because of some strange misunderstanding or confusion about mortality or purity or... something? It's hard to understand what he's thinking to be honest.
I'm not selling the other villains a little short, the other villains are simply bland and generic. It's not a secret that DBZ villains are just evil for the sake of being evil. Frieza is just the generic evil tyrant who enslaves and kills people for money, Cell literally said his ultimate goal is terrorizing people, and Majin Buu is clearly pure evil.

You might not agree with Zamasu's actions but the fact remains that he genuinely thought he was doing the right thing, unlike every other villain. You'll never see Frieza, or Cell, or Buu claiming that they are only trying to do what they think is best for the cosmos.

No one is arguing that Zamasu was insane because he was indeed insane, that's why he felt the need to kill the mortals himself instead of just wishing them away with the Super Dragon Balls. But regardless some of his points are correct and justified by the world he lives in.

In fact literally in the previous arc it was shown how the brilliant earthlings of U6 literally turned their Earth into a blighted wasteland due to their nuclear wars, tell me that Zamasu is wrong when he argued that mortals waste their intellect and knowledge to perpetuate war and destroy the world. People are given knowledge and brains and they use them to create nuclear weapons and kill each others and nature, is that also not evil?

But don't tell me that Goku never felt mercy for Zamasu because "he was insane", because I don't believe it. Goku literally felt mercy for Moro, who is the definition of clinically insane, he's just a mad beast who exists only to eat people. You can't even say that Goku never felt pity for Zamasu due to him killing his family, because Goku felt pity for Vegeta who, as we all know, ordered the deaths of Goku's comrades. He even felt pity for Frieza who killed Goku's biological family when he exterminated the Saiyans.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by OLKv3 » Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:36 pm

Goku has never had a problem killing someone if he thinks he can't handle them. He only tries to spare you if he thinks he can handle you

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:30 pm

I'm not selling the other villains a little short, the other villains are simply bland and generic. It's not a secret that DBZ villains are just evil for the sake of being evil. Frieza is just the generic evil tyrant who enslaves and kills people for money, Cell literally said his ultimate goal is terrorizing people, and Majin Buu is clearly pure evil.
Like I said, we'll probably have to disagree here. I don't care for Cell but I found Frieza and Buu much more compelling than Zamasu. Of course, a lot this has to do with the general overall depth and quality of DBZ over Super.

I think there's something about him that really speaks to you, and that's great. From where I'm standing, though, it makes no difference if he genuinely thought he was doing the right thing or not, largely because his points are NOT correct and justified. In the world of Dragon Ball most of the deities are as fallible as any mortal, and Zamasu's great confusion is his ego. He's driven mad by it, by this idea that he knows better than the rest of the people in the godly system that he is a part of, better than the natural order of things... and of course, this arrogance and lunacy dooms him in the end. Maybe instead of "insanity" you could say he has a horrible, devastating confusion and lack of humility.
Goku felt pity for Vegeta who, as we all know, ordered the deaths of Goku's comrades. He even felt pity for Frieza who killed Goku's biological family when he exterminated the Saiyans.
This is a misreading of Goku's motivations but it'd take some time to go into detail about why, and I have to go! But in short, Goku had a lot of respect for Vegeta and Frieza's strength, despite their misdeeds and a major theme of Super is unearned strength. As a god, Zamasu did not earn his strength and abuses it horribly.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:42 am

capsulecorp wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:30 pm
I'm not selling the other villains a little short, the other villains are simply bland and generic. It's not a secret that DBZ villains are just evil for the sake of being evil. Frieza is just the generic evil tyrant who enslaves and kills people for money, Cell literally said his ultimate goal is terrorizing people, and Majin Buu is clearly pure evil.
Like I said, we'll probably have to disagree here. I don't care for Cell but I found Frieza and Buu much more compelling than Zamasu. Of course, a lot this has to do with the general overall depth and quality of DBZ over Super.
Yeah a villain who literally eats people for fun is so complex, I agree.
In the world of Dragon Ball most of the deities are as fallible as any mortal
Good thing Zamasu also hated the other Gods and how they did nothing instead of using their powers to intervene in the defence of the cosmos.
This is a misreading of Goku's motivations but it'd take some time to go into detail about why, and I have to go! But in short, Goku had a lot of respect for Vegeta and Frieza's strength, despite their misdeeds and a major theme of Super is unearned strength. As a god, Zamasu did not earn his strength and abuses it horribly.
Bruh he felt sympathy for Moro whose literal gimmick is stealing powers from people, there is no justification to be found, Goku is simply an hypocrite.

And by the way unlike Moro Zamasu actually had to work his ass off to unlock Goku's potential, since initially he couldn't even go Super Saiyan. He had to fight and be beat up multiple times to reach greater powers until he could finally use Super Saiyan Rosé. Unlike Moro who could magically use everything instantly.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by capsulecorp » Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:06 pm

Yeah a villain who literally eats people for fun is so complex, I agree.
Well, I said "compelling", not "complex".
Good thing Zamasu also hated the other Gods and how they did nothing instead of using their powers to intervene in the defence of the cosmos.
I don't understand how this relates to my point.
Bruh he felt sympathy for Moro whose literal gimmick is stealing powers from people, there is no justification to be found, Goku is simply an hypocrite.
I don't understand why you're talking about Moro all of a sudden.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by BWri » Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:43 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:36 pm Goku has never had a problem killing someone if he thinks he can't handle them. He only tries to spare you if he thinks he can handle you
This! I remember saying this a month or two ago on one of these threads. Raditz, Cell (encouraged Gohan to kill him), Buu, Frieza during RoF and Zamasu.

Vegeta was the only exception as far as I know. And now freaking Moro of all people, yuck!
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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by Yuji » Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:24 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:36 pm Goku has never had a problem killing someone if he thinks he can't handle them. He only tries to spare you if he thinks he can handle you
I don't think that's all right. He only tries to spare people if they don't pose a threat anymore and/or they can prove to be a challenge in the future. Piccolo, Vegeta, Boo, Freeza (F) and Moro were the latter, whereas the Ginyu Force, Freeza (Namek) and Raditz were the former. He had no trouble urging Gohan to kill Cell because he wasn't in control of the fight, he had no trouble attempting to kill Dabra because he needed to save his friends. Zamasu was both a threat and not really much of a challenge (he was immortal, therefore never able to be permanently subdued, but also easily overpowered); Black would be a challenge if he didn't commit the grave sin of killing Goku's family and stealing his body, that probably didn't award him leniency.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by Cipher » Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:39 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:36 pm Goku has never had a problem killing someone if he thinks he can't handle them. He only tries to spare you if he thinks he can handle you
I think this is basically right, but there's some serious wiggle room in there. He'll also spare you if he thinks he can probably beat you in a rematch, even if he almost just lost or actually just lost (Piccolo and Vegeta, respectively; even Freeza, both on Namek and in "F," really).

But yes--when he's not in control or sees an immediate need to end a threat with no way around killing the opponent, there's no era of Goku that's balked at it.

Black's already come up as a potential outlier, but, as mentioned, I don't think it's in Goku to be particularly moved by the challenge of someone who's using his own body, and have no trouble being on board with his lack of attempts to spare Black. He'd be willing to spare unfused Zamasu if he showed any remorse, and merged Zamasu is never someone they come close to having the upper hand against; it's do-or-die the whole time.
BWri wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:43 pm And now freaking Moro of all people, yuck!
As mentioned above, also Piccolo and Freeza. Contrary to them and Vegeta, at least Goku isn't willing to just let Moro ride off into the sunset. He takes the chance to see if he can be convinced to return alive to prison, only after he has the very secure (well, almost very secure) upper hand.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by BWri » Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:15 am

Cipher wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:39 pm As mentioned above, also Piccolo and Freeza. Contrary to them and Vegeta, at least Goku isn't willing to just let Moro ride off into the sunset. He takes the chance to see if he can be convinced to return alive to prison, only after he has the very secure (well, almost very secure) upper hand.
There were several layers to why the Moro situation was way worse than it was with Vegeta, Piccolo, or Frieza. The first of which is Moro's whole modus operandi of absorb planets first ask questions later. The second of which is the scale of Moro's atrocities. The third of which is he planned to send Jaco with him, alone. The fourth is that Goku bumbled his way through the fight, relying on literally all his friends and an impartial god to bail him out several times including Merus, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, #18, and #17. That's all before Whis had to literally supply him with the cheat sheet on how to defeat Moro once the villain gets the upper hand.

The main bone head move is the fact that he's risking Jaco's life for absolutely no reason. Nothing good could come from a fully healed Moro, who's proven he can escape the most secure prison in the galaxy, traveling the dark void of space alone with Jaco. At least if Moro was weakened Jaco would stand a better chance of surviving the trip.

With the villains Goku gave a sensu previously, he was proving a point. With Piccolo he was letting it be known that they could fight again and the outcome would be the same but also showed a "no hard feelings" kind of sentiment since their blood feud had cooled to deadly rivalry. With Cell it was, "You need all your strength to fight my son, he's that good." In both situations Goku was right to be confident.

But with Moro Goku had no right to be confident. Moro found a way to get the upperhand on him in every one of their previous encounters. And he continued to do so after he got the sensu. The crafty mage had effortlessly defeated Goku several times despite the power gap between them and had managed to close the gap in no time with absorption.

It just baffles me how this even exists.
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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by Cipher » Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:22 am

BWri wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:15 am But with Moro Goku had no right to be confident. Moro found a way to get the upperhand on him in every one of their previous encounters. And he continued to do so after he got the sensu. The crafty mage had effortlessly defeated Goku several times despite the power gap between them and had managed to close the gap in no time with absorption.

It just baffles me how this even exists.
I don’t see what the difference is, really. Ignoring Vegeta, which you noted as an exception, he lets Piccolo go after winning by the absolute skin of his teeth, with a hole through his chest and to everyone else’s horror. The internal dialogue we get from him afterward is also clear about him simply wanting a rival—he even wishes for Piccolo to get stronger. The dynamic is the same as the Vegeta scene except mined for less drama in the moment.

With Freeza on both Namek and Earth, he’s offering to let him go after a close fight and one he’s essentially just lost, respectively, no strings attached—and once again, invites him to train and get stronger in the latter.

It’s just who he is when he has any room to attempt it (even in some horribly unjustifiable cases), and Merus has also just pepped him up on his ability to accidentally reform villains. The only real difference is Goku being slightly more cautious with Moro, by placing conditions on sparing him (“There’s no path in which you go free”). He’s willing to send Piccolo, ‘geets and Freeza off to just do whatever, and come back to fight him again.

I think the scale of their individual crimes kind of starts to become a moot comparison considering all of them are out to destroy/rule Earth (and other planets for the latter three) at a minimum. He’s gambling with innocent lives in all cases, but he doesn’t factor that in when the risk equation isn’t immediate. He just figures they’ll come around or he’ll win if it ever becomes a problem again (not that there’s ever a guarantee).

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by BWri » Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:19 am

Cipher wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:22 am I don’t see what the difference is, really. Ignoring Vegeta, which you noted as an exception, he lets Piccolo go after winning by the absolute skin of his teeth, with a hole through his chest and to everyone else’s horror. The internal dialogue we get from him afterward is also clear about him simply wanting a rival—he even wishes for Piccolo to get stronger. The dynamic is the same as the Vegeta scene except mined for less drama in the moment.

With Freeza on both Namek and Earth, he’s offering to let him go after a close fight and one he’s essentially just lost, respectively, no strings attached—and once again, invites him to train and get stronger in the latter.

It’s just who he is when he has any room to attempt it (even in some horribly unjustifiable cases), and Merus has also just pepped him up on his ability to accidentally reform villains. The only real difference is Goku being slightly more cautious with Moro, by placing conditions on sparing him (“There’s no path in which you go free”). He’s willing to send Piccolo, ‘geets and Freeza off to just do whatever, and come back to fight him again.

I think the scale of their individual crimes kind of starts to become a moot comparison considering all of them are out to destroy/rule Earth (and other planets for the latter three) at a minimum. He’s gambling with innocent lives in all cases, but he doesn’t factor that in when the risk equation isn’t immediate. He just figures they’ll come around or he’ll win if it ever becomes a problem again (not that there’s ever a guarantee).
I think those are all valid points. I think the main difference, other than his plan to send Jaco on what was tantamount to a death mission, was that he hadn't exhausted Moro of all his options. With the previous combatants we listed: Frieza, Vegeta, and Piccolo, Goku had seen everything they could do and the absolute limit of their abilities. With Moro, with every fight he displayed something new, something that turned the tide of a seemingly unwinnable fight. He did that at least 2 or 3 times prior.

And also with the Piccolo and Vegeta examples, we have zenkais retconned into the history, which is something Goku might have subconsciously picked up on. The Vegeta example is closest to Moro, but with Vegeta Goku knows he's operating with someone who to some degree shares his mindset along with his pride and desire for honorable-ish combat. Time and time again, he should have picked up the fact that Moro is not cut from the same cloth. To Moro, Gluttony is his #1 desire. Nothing else comes close.

And at this point Goku has no shortage of rivals. There's no reason to want another in Moro who is powered by the dead and who is not really a fighter. I guess he just wants variety? But that just makes him come off as the gluttonous one as its excessive beyond reason. Since we aren't exploring that side of Goku, I doubt that's the intention of the story.
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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm

All good points. The more I think about RoF, the more I think the point of that final scene is to hammer us over the head with the fact that this aspect of Goku has not and did not and probably will not ever change.

It's a little frustrating for people who expect tidy "character arcs" and who may not be not comfortable with stories where the characters do not "learn, change and grow", but that's who Goku is. He's a frustrating individual with very specific idiosyncrasies, but... that's also what's made his story so fascinating for so long. RoF isn't meant to change that dynamic, its meant to reinforce it.

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Re: Why do some people still think RoF was supposed to be a turning point for Goku's character?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:27 pm

BWri wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:15 amWith the villains Goku gave a sensu previously, he was proving a point.
Whatever else you might think of Goku's actions and reasons here, he is absolutely proving a point in what he does with Moro in Chapter 65.

In Chapter 64, Moro deflects Goku’s appeal to his helplessness as an opening to a broader empathy ("Are you starting to understand the pain and suffering of everyone you've killed? Do you get how that feels now?"), asserting his supremacy as a life-form, and thus implicitly his right to act as he pleases, acting in an underhanded scumbag fashion to steal lives to sate himself. From that point, just about everything about Goku's interaction with Moro is about proving that his approach is faulty, and he proves it by showing that each underhand attempt Moro makes to get the upper hand only hurt him: he tries to ambush Goku, and loses his arm in his own geyser of lava/ki; he threatens consuming the world Goku stands on, and ends up begging for his life under a boulder before he can do anything.

And then there's the Senzu moment. Strictly speaking, Jaco’s right that “You didn’t have to heal the scumbag!”, but Goku's purpose is totally demonstrative; he doesn't actually expect Moro to do what he tells him yet: it's to show that even when Moro is fully-healed and given a prime opening, there’s nothing he can do to Goku, and his personal inclinations are only harming him now - to wit, Moro tries to be sneaky and spear Goku, but he only ends up breaking his own hand. And it's at this point that Goku tells him that his approach is at fault, since he’d’ve been stronger if he’d put in the work and earned his power instead of stealing it by consuming other people's lives. Goku aims to better himself by every challenge (and Moro, as his greatest challenge yet, is not exempt from this consideration), but he also wants power to be earned and wielded rightly.

And that's also why he makes the earnest effort to begin to shift Moro a little at this point, with his final ultimatum: Moro can change, and there may be hope for him, or Moro can continue to be as he is, and die. And while it's not quite as straightforward as Goku envisages, that's exactly what happens. Moro demonstrates his own incorrigible smallness by going for one more audacious theft instead of taking Goku's point to heart, and in so doing he damns himself.

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