I didn't even ping you so it's not like I wanted to talk about Zamasu with youSkar wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:19 pmSorry you feel that way because I wasn't trying to flame you. We've discussed Zamasu before and gave my opinion why I didn't like the arc or the character. Since then I've avoided threads about Zamasu or ones that you derail and make them about the character since I didn't have much to add. I thought it was a harmless question to ask after seeing it happen so often but I'll go back to scrolling past your comments about Zamasu.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:59 pmComparing Moro to the only other DBS villain with a completed story arc is not derailing in any way, shape, or form, and you're the one who attacked me if anything. Like I don't even know who you are, you're literally the one who replied to me.
So I will repeat to you what I told you earlier: If you don't have anything nice or constructive to say, simply don't reply to me. It's not hard.
You could have given your opinion on this arc right now without flaming me, and everyone would have been happy, but you just had to reply to me for no reason other than to flame.
What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
Not really what I was saying since I don't have a reason to bring him up. I've seen it happen often that you call out almost anyone who has a slightly negative opinion about Zamasu. I think there's a difference between discussing the character and always jumping in to tell someone their opinion is wrong for interpreting the character differently.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:35 pmI didn't even ping you so it's not like I wanted to talk about Zamasu with you
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
Bruh I literally haven't replied to anyone here aside from one user who replied to me first, let's just stop because you're clearly lying.Skar wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:11 pmNot really what I was saying since I don't have a reason to bring him up. I've seen it happen often that you call out almost anyone who has a slightly negative opinion about Zamasu. I think there's a difference between discussing the character and always jumping in to tell someone their opinion is wrong for interpreting the character differently.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:35 pmI didn't even ping you so it's not like I wanted to talk about Zamasu with you
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
How about to Piccolo Daimao, his direct and extremely obvious inspiration?SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:13 pmI brought up Zamasu because he's the only other DBS villain with a completed story arc, who should I compare Moro to? Do tell me.
Super isn't written in a vacuum, and the Moro arc is arguably the most DB-referential arc of the lot.
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
I will also note the continued Zamasu-related derailing. Please knock it off here and elsewhere. This isn't a role-playing forum, and there's no need to be hyper-sensitive when granular aspects of art you yourself had no involvement in is being discussed/reviewed/challenged.
Thing is, it's pretty impossible to get a "general consensus" (as Alruneia alluded to back on the first page). As evidenced by this thread, different people like different things for different reasons, those reasons may change over time, and not everyone is open/willing/able to share (or re-share) those opinions at whatever given time it's being asked. It's just not possible to sum it up by saying "most people _______".
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
(my Zamasu sense is tingling)
But on-topic, I think that the consensus may be that everyone is just glad to have more DB no matter how well it measures up to previous arcs. It was an empty period from 1997-2013 for a number of fans and some clung onto any alleged rumor of DB returning in whatever form. I can remember kids at school talking about DBAF as though it was real and that we'd be seeing it come to America eventually. Then there was the short lived "DB Hoshi" hype-train that suckered in a few fans when in reality, it was just promos for DB Heroes cards.
Everyone is just glad to receive a DB fix, I guess.
But on-topic, I think that the consensus may be that everyone is just glad to have more DB no matter how well it measures up to previous arcs. It was an empty period from 1997-2013 for a number of fans and some clung onto any alleged rumor of DB returning in whatever form. I can remember kids at school talking about DBAF as though it was real and that we'd be seeing it come to America eventually. Then there was the short lived "DB Hoshi" hype-train that suckered in a few fans when in reality, it was just promos for DB Heroes cards.
Everyone is just glad to receive a DB fix, I guess.
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
Zamasu actually used to be one of my favourite characters until I saw there was this genuine cult-like fascination with him. Now I struggle to sit through his arc. Sick of him. Sick of his stupid green face.
The disparity in reactions to the Moro arc can be quite breathtaking, indeed. Around the time that Moro got his Seven-Three merger and was brutalising the main cast, the overall reaction I could gather on this forum was either apathy or frustration that the pacing of the story was being dragged down. Then I head to YouTube and suddenly it's like the bloodthirsty masses from Gladiator. "Best arc", "Finally, blood is back", "This is real DeeBeeZee". A number of high-profile YouTubers who were dismissive of the manga also did 180s when the Moro arc finished.
The comparisons to the Toei Z movies are fair enough, but I believe the wider mainstream appeal of the Moro arc (insofar as the manga has much mainstream appeal -- in terms of volume sales, IIRC it peaked during the Trunks arc and hasn't really recovered since) is that streamlines aesthetics to emulate the look and feel of the anime, albeit Toyotaro-ified. Ultra Instinct Sign gets treated as a full transformation, whereas it was barely a footnote in the manga's Universe Survival arc, and Goku now has the "pressurised air beams" signature carried over from the anime. Both Sign and Perfected UI become bulkier, reminiscent of the anime designs. The Z-Warriors all get arbitrary spotlights and seem to be substantially beefed up to the level fans think they should be. There might be some influence from the recent video games as well. Yamcha goes back to his classic dogi look like in FighterZ while Gohan and Piccolo use a bunch of videogame-y combination attacks.
The Moro arc is a boiling pot of inspirations from other media as well as reactionary changes seemingly made to address common fan criticisms of previous arcs. You want a back-to-basics villain? You want blood and gore back? You want Gohan to do something useful? You want Ultra Instinct to look less anaemic? Go on, 'ave it then! 'Ave it aaaallll
The disparity in reactions to the Moro arc can be quite breathtaking, indeed. Around the time that Moro got his Seven-Three merger and was brutalising the main cast, the overall reaction I could gather on this forum was either apathy or frustration that the pacing of the story was being dragged down. Then I head to YouTube and suddenly it's like the bloodthirsty masses from Gladiator. "Best arc", "Finally, blood is back", "This is real DeeBeeZee". A number of high-profile YouTubers who were dismissive of the manga also did 180s when the Moro arc finished.
The comparisons to the Toei Z movies are fair enough, but I believe the wider mainstream appeal of the Moro arc (insofar as the manga has much mainstream appeal -- in terms of volume sales, IIRC it peaked during the Trunks arc and hasn't really recovered since) is that streamlines aesthetics to emulate the look and feel of the anime, albeit Toyotaro-ified. Ultra Instinct Sign gets treated as a full transformation, whereas it was barely a footnote in the manga's Universe Survival arc, and Goku now has the "pressurised air beams" signature carried over from the anime. Both Sign and Perfected UI become bulkier, reminiscent of the anime designs. The Z-Warriors all get arbitrary spotlights and seem to be substantially beefed up to the level fans think they should be. There might be some influence from the recent video games as well. Yamcha goes back to his classic dogi look like in FighterZ while Gohan and Piccolo use a bunch of videogame-y combination attacks.
The Moro arc is a boiling pot of inspirations from other media as well as reactionary changes seemingly made to address common fan criticisms of previous arcs. You want a back-to-basics villain? You want blood and gore back? You want Gohan to do something useful? You want Ultra Instinct to look less anaemic? Go on, 'ave it then! 'Ave it aaaallll
Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
The problem is most of the Moro arc retreads past DBZ beats that we've seen a dozen times over. This is why I mentioned the old DBZ movies which tended to re-tread whatever storylines were going on in the main series at the time.
The Moro arc is generally proof the Dragon Ball storyline is in a creative lull since there's no further place to take the characters without a timeskip.
The Moro arc is generally proof the Dragon Ball storyline is in a creative lull since there's no further place to take the characters without a timeskip.
Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
This is kind of a failed topic (unless I’m misunderstanding something), since people keep giving their own personal opinions on the arc as opposed to how they’ve generally seen people rate it. I’ve seen criticisms of the arc, but I’ve also seen that with every single arc in the franchise. People being critical isn’t an indication of what they think of the arc, or how they would rate it in comparison to the rest of DBS. From what I’ve seen the Moro Arc is usually rated highly in comparison to the rest of DBS, to the point where I can definitively say the general consensus on the arc is that it’s at least one of the best in Super.
You remembered incorrectly, and manga selling more when it has an on-going weekly anime promoting it is standard affair. However I wouldn’t disagree that DBS (the series) as a whole, in terms of popularity, peaked at the FT arc. Didn’t the first episode of the FT arc have the best ratings and no episode of DBS after that even came close to it? There was a lot of hype surrounding Future Trunks coming back, and Black became one of the most popular DBS antagonists.LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:15 pm IIRC it peaked during the Trunks arc and hasn't really recovered since
Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
I did the science.
At over 400 votes with an audience limited to DB fans on Twitter: I was completely wrong, and over one-third consider it their favorite in Super overall (anime inclusive); the split between favorite and least favorite wasn't even close. More than four times as many people put it on top than as on bottom.
Favorite: 32.9 percent
Least favorite: 7.3 percent
Neither: 59.8 percent
At over 400 votes with an audience limited to DB fans on Twitter: I was completely wrong, and over one-third consider it their favorite in Super overall (anime inclusive); the split between favorite and least favorite wasn't even close. More than four times as many people put it on top than as on bottom.
Favorite: 32.9 percent
Least favorite: 7.3 percent
Neither: 59.8 percent
Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
Also surprised. My experience was the same on Moro arc being favorite or least-favorite for many, and its relation to anime vs manga preferences.
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
viewtopic.php?t=45149Sikat wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:33 pmYou remembered incorrectly, and manga selling more when it has an on-going weekly anime promoting it is standard affair. However I wouldn’t disagree that DBS (the series) as a whole, in terms of popularity, peaked at the FT arc. Didn’t the first episode of the FT arc have the best ratings and no episode of DBS after that even came close to it? There was a lot of hype surrounding Future Trunks coming back, and Black became one of the most popular DBS antagonists.LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:15 pm IIRC it peaked during the Trunks arc and hasn't really recovered since
I wouldn't say sales are the only marker of popularity either (especially since every newest issue can be read for free on Viz), but Volume 5 hit 400,000 units and that was the peak in Japan, unless these figures have since been updated, so that should count for something. I won't deny that the hype surrounding the anime played a role. I would say the Universe Survival arc had the biggest mainstream impact until the Broly movie came along.
EDIT: But by the looks of things, the US arc might've done better in, well... the US.
Yikes. Maybe we do live in a bubble.I did the science.
At over 400 votes with an audience limited to DB fans on Twitter: I was completely wrong, and over one-third consider it their favorite in Super overall (anime inclusive); the split between favorite and least favorite wasn't even close. More than four times as many people put it on top than as on bottom.
Favorite: 32.9 percent
Least favorite: 7.3 percent
Neither: 59.8 percent
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
Honestly, I found it was a mess.
It started off nice, with an actual Villain being evil like King Piccolo, however the execution of the story was all over the place.
It copies and paste already-seen scenarios from past sagas of (especially) Dragon Ball Z, the only thing that didn't happen is seeing Moro helding a tournament. It had dozen upon dozens of Dragon Ball cliches.
Also, all the stuff regarding Ultra Instinct, and especially the fight between UI Sign Goku and Moro, was simply terrible. I didn't like it a bit.
It started off nice, with an actual Villain being evil like King Piccolo, however the execution of the story was all over the place.
It copies and paste already-seen scenarios from past sagas of (especially) Dragon Ball Z, the only thing that didn't happen is seeing Moro helding a tournament. It had dozen upon dozens of Dragon Ball cliches.
Also, all the stuff regarding Ultra Instinct, and especially the fight between UI Sign Goku and Moro, was simply terrible. I didn't like it a bit.
Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
I liked some stuff, disliked other stuff, the beginning was nice, the Namek stuff but then it got boring, it felt like pedaling but going nowhere. To me it was like modern football with the implementation of the VAR. It just doesn't flow, there's always a break, an excuse to redirect the action somewhere else. This happened a lot in the final fight, which I ended up enjoying but that whole EarthMoro thing didn't work for me. Moro getting UI also wasn't necessary either. Moro got way too many breaks.
I guess, it has a lot of good stuff, but there's just too much going on, and sometimes less is more.
I guess, it has a lot of good stuff, but there's just too much going on, and sometimes less is more.
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
I don’t know about a general consensus but even though reading it month to month I had issues. Going back reading it in one go a lot of those issues bothered me a lot less. It’s probably my favorite arc of super and I’ve come to quite like Moro as a character.
To people who don’t like this arc, I urge you to watch these two videos.
This first video is by Seththeprogrammer detailing the Narrative Themes behind Goku and Moro and their fight.
https://youtu.be/aWuEgTUmMK8
The Second One Is a Bit More Traditional Arc review by TotallyNotMark. I share a lot of his opinions on this arc for both its highs and its lows.
https://youtu.be/Mb6skhi6mFo
To people who don’t like this arc, I urge you to watch these two videos.
This first video is by Seththeprogrammer detailing the Narrative Themes behind Goku and Moro and their fight.
https://youtu.be/aWuEgTUmMK8
The Second One Is a Bit More Traditional Arc review by TotallyNotMark. I share a lot of his opinions on this arc for both its highs and its lows.
https://youtu.be/Mb6skhi6mFo
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
I'm not convinced enough people have read the arc for there to be any kind of large "consensus", and popular opinion can obviously change over time. Either way, the concept means nothing to me; if my reading agrees with that of most consumers, that's cool, but if not, that's fine too.
For me, it's the Skyward Sword of the Super manga. It's got a few neat ideas with half-baked execution, and there is some genuinely solid theme work in a sea of bad plotting (be it pacing, misuse/overuse of legacy supporting characters with little relevance in the arc itself, or fairly derivative narrative concepts), but it has its fair share of great moments. It's an absolute slog to get through but on the whole, it's mildly enjoyable -- especially if you can appreciate Toyotaro's strengths as an artist and writer.
A bad Zelda game is still a decent game.
For me, it's the Skyward Sword of the Super manga. It's got a few neat ideas with half-baked execution, and there is some genuinely solid theme work in a sea of bad plotting (be it pacing, misuse/overuse of legacy supporting characters with little relevance in the arc itself, or fairly derivative narrative concepts), but it has its fair share of great moments. It's an absolute slog to get through but on the whole, it's mildly enjoyable -- especially if you can appreciate Toyotaro's strengths as an artist and writer.
A bad Zelda game is still a decent game.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):
Spoiler:
Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
I have for sure seen a lot of people say that the super manga wasn't very good until Moro. I don't think it'd be a crazy assumption to say that it's the most popular arc in the manga amongst the general readership.
I think a lot of that probably stems from people not having to compare it to an anime adaptation. Super's manga is always harshly criticised when it comes out after the anime by a lot of people, and analysed under the scope of what was changed rather than its own merits a lot of the time.
Amongst people who had a positive opinion on super's manga before the Moro arc, opinions usually differ and it ranks towards the bottom (which is where I stand too).
I also think the consensus seems to be that Goku giving Moro a senzu was a really bad writing choice. Like I've seen that moment brought up multiple times as being a low point for the manga, along with Roshi dodging Jiren (which is a shame because I love both of those moments).
I think a lot of that probably stems from people not having to compare it to an anime adaptation. Super's manga is always harshly criticised when it comes out after the anime by a lot of people, and analysed under the scope of what was changed rather than its own merits a lot of the time.
Amongst people who had a positive opinion on super's manga before the Moro arc, opinions usually differ and it ranks towards the bottom (which is where I stand too).
I also think the consensus seems to be that Goku giving Moro a senzu was a really bad writing choice. Like I've seen that moment brought up multiple times as being a low point for the manga, along with Roshi dodging Jiren (which is a shame because I love both of those moments).
Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
Hated it. Should have ended on Namek.
Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
Those are copies printed, not sold (not that I don’t believe it eventually sold that much - all DBS volumes sell more than the numbers we have). Volume 5, if I remember correctly, also had a special edition however I don’t know if this is included in this figure.
Regardless, I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to see the problem with comparing copies printed to copies sold. The actual best-selling volume, from the definitive numbers we have, was Volume 8 of the Universe Survival Arc.
Not going to say I told you so, but yeah. The general consensus is definitely it being one of the best arcs in Super.
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Re: What is the General Consensus on the Moro Arc?
It is my favourite DB arc, far better than the ToP in my opinion. I love how it even gives some spotlight to characters that deserved spotlight in the ToP, such as Buu and Yamcha, and gave Piccolo and Gohan some more action than before.
It has some faults, yeah. But I like it better than the previous arcs.
It has some faults, yeah. But I like it better than the previous arcs.