So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
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So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
At the beginning of the current arc, it was established that Goku's long-term goal is to continue polishing his Ultra Instinct and that Goku's improvement room goes from his current level to the Daishinkan level. Whis also claims that he needs to fully acclimate his body to use the technique without having to rely on transformations.
Vegeta's answer to this turned out to be the Hakai technique. Beerus claims that the mindset needed to use this technique makes this power limitless. Vegeta also claims that a power like this, which is derived from instinct, is unbounded.
Thematically, it is the culmination of their combat philosophy, with Goku moving more towards the martial arts path while Vegeta moves towards the path of a Saiyan warrior with an instinct for battle and destruction. So it seems to me that from here on, these two forms will be the main ones for Goku/Vegeta and their goal will be to keep improving them. At the most, we will have subtle visual changes to convey their progress but always based on the current forms they are using
If that's the direction the series is heading, what do you think about it?
It was also hinted the possibility that they will both fully incorporate these Godly techniques into their natural states, to the point where they will no longer need transformations. In any case, it would also mean that focus would remain on both UI and Hakai and not on new unrelated forms.
Vegeta's answer to this turned out to be the Hakai technique. Beerus claims that the mindset needed to use this technique makes this power limitless. Vegeta also claims that a power like this, which is derived from instinct, is unbounded.
Thematically, it is the culmination of their combat philosophy, with Goku moving more towards the martial arts path while Vegeta moves towards the path of a Saiyan warrior with an instinct for battle and destruction. So it seems to me that from here on, these two forms will be the main ones for Goku/Vegeta and their goal will be to keep improving them. At the most, we will have subtle visual changes to convey their progress but always based on the current forms they are using
If that's the direction the series is heading, what do you think about it?
It was also hinted the possibility that they will both fully incorporate these Godly techniques into their natural states, to the point where they will no longer need transformations. In any case, it would also mean that focus would remain on both UI and Hakai and not on new unrelated forms.
Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
It should be. Ultra Instinct follows the path of the Angels, while Vegeta's follows the path of the Gods of Destruction. We know besides the Angels and Gods there's nothing left besides Zeno, and he's not really a character that has a transformation or power in the traditional sense.
Anything above Ultra Instinct or God of Destruction transformations just wouldn't make sense with the lore established. The Angels/Gods and Zeno is all there is.
Anything above Ultra Instinct or God of Destruction transformations just wouldn't make sense with the lore established. The Angels/Gods and Zeno is all there is.
Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
Thematically it should be
But I also just can’t see the series giving up on transformations
But I also just can’t see the series giving up on transformations
Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
I hope yes. Ideally I would want both Goku and Vegeta to fully master the two states in their base form, and end the serie with their strongest state just being their normal form, which is the simplest design. It would be very nice and unexpected, and Dragon Ball-like too, in my opinion.
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What I consider canonical
What I consider canonical
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Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
No. Like I said in another thread, Goku and Vegeta have yet to achieve a transformation that is related to Zeno and Toribot, respectively. You can't just stop here, Vegeta is always saying: "there is no such thing as limit", that applies to transformations too. Endless forms!
Sure, I say this jokingly but deep down we all know it's true. More transformations to come soon.
Sure, I say this jokingly but deep down we all know it's true. More transformations to come soon.
Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
Pretty much this. As long as there is merch to sell there will be new forms. That's the honest to goodness truth of things. Story comes second to capitalism in the modern day. Transformations are easy money even when incongruent with the narrative.Grimlock wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:00 pm No. Like I said in another thread, Goku and Vegeta have yet to achieve a transformation that is related to Zeno and Toribot, respectively. You can't just stop here, Vegeta is always saying: "there is no such thing as limit", that applies to transformations too. Endless forms!
Sure, I say this jokingly but deep down we all know it's true. More transformations to come soon.
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Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
I guess I'd follow other commenters in saying 'they should be', but it would still be quite easy for these transformations to get redefined if it were needed in order for them to do something different.
For instance, it could be later developed that Goku and Vegeta are really just activating generic 'Divine Power' transformations, but the way they specifically look (from what we've seen so far) is related to the divine secrets/techniques they've specifically trained in, and so if other such techniques were to come out of the woodwork and they were to train in those, then it could alter their appearance in some different fashion when they activate the 'Divine Power' transformation - so, technically it would be the same transformation, but a different focus, so it would also be a different 'form'.
Simple enough to do, if the 'need' arises.
For instance, it could be later developed that Goku and Vegeta are really just activating generic 'Divine Power' transformations, but the way they specifically look (from what we've seen so far) is related to the divine secrets/techniques they've specifically trained in, and so if other such techniques were to come out of the woodwork and they were to train in those, then it could alter their appearance in some different fashion when they activate the 'Divine Power' transformation - so, technically it would be the same transformation, but a different focus, so it would also be a different 'form'.
Simple enough to do, if the 'need' arises.
Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
Zeno isn't a transformation to get to, he's just God. He doesn't fight, doesn't have any powers besides erasing everything (which Goku/Vegeta would never get because then there's no story), and so forth.
Angels and Gods are it.
Angels and Gods are it.
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Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
They may not be done just yet. I get the feeling that once Goku & Vegeta properly master the techniques of UI & destruction, they'll finally pull out their true, ultimate forms and have gone as far as transformations can possibly take them. Perhaps Goku will have an improved Perfected UI form that doesn't have the stamina issue since he will have mastered UI in every state. As for Vegeta, he will have mastered destruction in all of his states as well and may have permanent, purple tint added to his hair or aura in every state and then his Hakaishin form will just ooze purple like a violet waterfall.
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Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
You know it would be nice if there was a functional equivalent for Kaioshin. If destruction is emblematic of Hakashin and instinct for angels then something like creation should logically apply to the Kaioshin. I'm not holding my breath for any significant development on that front, however. Kaioshin have been treated as the bumbling ancillary for Hakaishin who are there to maintain cosmic equilibrium. We've yet to find any Kaioshin that stands out amongst them all. Zamasu came the closest but his initial momentum was stopped in its tracks when Goku shrugged him off as a lightweight with parlour tricks whom Trunks could handle. Zamasu's narrative imposition was derived from the magical power of a dragon who provided him with immortality and then ultimately the physical strength of a Saiyan.
I'm not of the opinion that there's any foreseeable end of the transformations like others have mentioned. If there's revenue to be made then they'll continue with the formula. You could argue that the transformations have become gaudier than the last. I suppose Toyotaro and possibly others behind the scenes felt that an Ultra Instinct condition like Whis' and Hakai being a simple technique wouldn't interest people as much if there wasn't a visual change made to the duo who are notorious for their crayon box of hair colour schemes.
I'm not of the opinion that there's any foreseeable end of the transformations like others have mentioned. If there's revenue to be made then they'll continue with the formula. You could argue that the transformations have become gaudier than the last. I suppose Toyotaro and possibly others behind the scenes felt that an Ultra Instinct condition like Whis' and Hakai being a simple technique wouldn't interest people as much if there wasn't a visual change made to the duo who are notorious for their crayon box of hair colour schemes.
Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
There being a Kaioshin-only secret technique would be interesting for sure.Lionel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:56 pm You know it would be nice if there was a functional equivalent for Kaioshin. If destruction is emblematic of Hakashin and instinct for angels then something like creation should logically apply to the Kaioshin. I'm not holding my breath for any significant development on that front, however. Kaioshin have been treated as the bumbling ancillary for Hakaishin who are there to maintain cosmic equilibrium. We've yet to find any Kaioshin that stands out amongst them all. Zamasu came the closest but his initial momentum was stopped in its tracks when Goku shrugged him off as a lightweight with parlour tricks whom Trunks could handle. Zamasu's narrative imposition was derived from the magical power of a dragon who provided him with immortality and then ultimately the physical strength of a Saiyan.
I'm not of the opinion that there's any foreseeable end of the transformations like others have mentioned. If there's revenue to be made then they'll continue with the formula. You could argue that the transformations have become gaudier than the last. I suppose Toyotaro and possibly others behind the scenes felt that an Ultra Instinct condition like Whis' and Hakai being a simple technique wouldn't interest people as much if there wasn't a visual change made to the duo who are notorious for their crayon box of hair colour schemes.
And someone else could get it, like Gohan.
Angels are neutral and cannot fight, so their ultimate technique being one which allows them to dodge everything without thinking suits perfectly, as does God of Destruction’s “think about destroying and nothing else” technique. Kaioshins are more about support and creation. So far we have seen that they can heal, teleport and immobilize people which are all already quite powerful tools. Maybe an ultimate technique could be some sort of reality altering/shapeshifting stuff? Like a technique which allows the user to create the most absurd things, like insane gravity below the opponent, illusions, self-healing, new techniques etcetera. Make it simply about “only thinking about creation” and bam, you got a new technique.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
Fantastic! This is something I gave some thought to since 2016. Gohan is a great one to select as would be Trunks, but I think the best person to fit that role would actually be Piccolo. There's a few reasons.emperior wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:44 amThere being a Kaioshin-only secret technique would be interesting for sure.Lionel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:56 pm You know it would be nice if there was a functional equivalent for Kaioshin. If destruction is emblematic of Hakashin and instinct for angels then something like creation should logically apply to the Kaioshin. I'm not holding my breath for any significant development on that front, however. Kaioshin have been treated as the bumbling ancillary for Hakaishin who are there to maintain cosmic equilibrium. We've yet to find any Kaioshin that stands out amongst them all. Zamasu came the closest but his initial momentum was stopped in its tracks when Goku shrugged him off as a lightweight with parlour tricks whom Trunks could handle. Zamasu's narrative imposition was derived from the magical power of a dragon who provided him with immortality and then ultimately the physical strength of a Saiyan.
I'm not of the opinion that there's any foreseeable end of the transformations like others have mentioned. If there's revenue to be made then they'll continue with the formula. You could argue that the transformations have become gaudier than the last. I suppose Toyotaro and possibly others behind the scenes felt that an Ultra Instinct condition like Whis' and Hakai being a simple technique wouldn't interest people as much if there wasn't a visual change made to the duo who are notorious for their crayon box of hair colour schemes.
And someone else could get it, like Gohan.
Angels are neutral and cannot fight, so their ultimate technique being one which allows them to dodge everything without thinking suits perfectly, as does God of Destruction’s “think about destroying and nothing else” technique. Kaioshins are more about support and creation. So far we have seen that they can heal, teleport and immobilize people which are all already quite powerful tools. Maybe an ultimate technique could be some sort of reality altering/shapeshifting stuff? Like a technique which allows the user to create the most absurd things, like insane gravity below the opponent, illusions, self-healing, new techniques etcetera. Make it simply about “only thinking about creation” and bam, you got a new technique.
1. Is his connection to Kami's divinity. 2. Is the fact that the healing abilities would synergize nicely with his own regeneration. 3. Is that both powers could possibly allow him to wield Kaioken (another Kaio based technique) without any drawbacks which would be another nice synergy. That's if healing could be advanced to be used in such a way. 4. Is that healing and creation seem to be natural Dragon Clan abilities. Piccolo is no longer Dragon Clan, apparently, but his memories of Kami should still allow him to naturally be adept at such techniques. Even Mazoku could naturally (or unnaturally depending on how you look at it) create life.
Maybe both Gohan and Piccolo could go down this path, Gohan as the Saiyan variant and Piccolo as the Namekian variant. It'd be a nice addition to the formula.
I'd just keep the techniques at stuff we already know mystical characters like Kami, Piccolo, and the Kaioshin can already do. Moon/planet creation which is great for all these destructive fights we see and for foes such as Moro and Buu who destroy at such absurd rates. Teleportation is something Kabito and Kami could do, though Kami's was limited. Immobilization seems right up Piccolo's alley as does illusions, shapeshifting too since Kami could body snatch - seems like a natural evolution of that power. I was thinking gravity is kind of crazy, but when you think about it, planet/moon creation requires one to make gravity right, so it makes since that a student or god of creation would have this. Another one would be the creation of elements. The Kaioshin showed that he could create metal but I'd add fire, lightning, water generation, and earth as well and possibly allow them to augment their techniques with it.
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Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
This would be interesting, the use of the environment (that they've created) as a weapon. Black holes, worm holes, sudden changes in gravity(like Hearts), lightnings (anime Zamasu used those), winds (Granola got sent flying when Vegeta powered up), the energy of stars (now maybe I'm blatantly stealing ideas from Saint Seiya), the ability to remove the oxygen from a certain area.emperior wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:44 amThere being a Kaioshin-only secret technique would be interesting for sure.Lionel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:56 pm You know it would be nice if there was a functional equivalent for Kaioshin. If destruction is emblematic of Hakashin and instinct for angels then something like creation should logically apply to the Kaioshin. I'm not holding my breath for any significant development on that front, however. Kaioshin have been treated as the bumbling ancillary for Hakaishin who are there to maintain cosmic equilibrium. We've yet to find any Kaioshin that stands out amongst them all. Zamasu came the closest but his initial momentum was stopped in its tracks when Goku shrugged him off as a lightweight with parlour tricks whom Trunks could handle. Zamasu's narrative imposition was derived from the magical power of a dragon who provided him with immortality and then ultimately the physical strength of a Saiyan.
I'm not of the opinion that there's any foreseeable end of the transformations like others have mentioned. If there's revenue to be made then they'll continue with the formula. You could argue that the transformations have become gaudier than the last. I suppose Toyotaro and possibly others behind the scenes felt that an Ultra Instinct condition like Whis' and Hakai being a simple technique wouldn't interest people as much if there wasn't a visual change made to the duo who are notorious for their crayon box of hair colour schemes.
And someone else could get it, like Gohan.
Angels are neutral and cannot fight, so their ultimate technique being one which allows them to dodge everything without thinking suits perfectly, as does God of Destruction’s “think about destroying and nothing else” technique. Kaioshins are more about support and creation. So far we have seen that they can heal, teleport and immobilize people which are all already quite powerful tools. Maybe an ultimate technique could be some sort of reality altering/shapeshifting stuff? Like a technique which allows the user to create the most absurd things, like insane gravity below the opponent, illusions, self-healing, new techniques etcetera. Make it simply about “only thinking about creation” and bam, you got a new technique.
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Re: So will Ultra Instinct Goku and GoD Vegeta be the last transformations of both Saiyans in the series?
i hope so, no more forms, just continue to improve the existing ones