How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

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How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by The Golden God » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:15 am

In the Saiyan Arc they tried to use the Dragon Balls to kill the Saiyans but Shenron said since the Saiyans were stronger than him he could not grant that wish. In Dragon Ball Super Granola uses his planet’s Dragon Balls to give him strength far surpassing even Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct. Unless Granola’s planet’s Dragon Balls are millions of times stronger than Earth’s, mind you he only needed to collect 2 balls to summon the Dragon, then this is hard to swallow. If Dragon Balls can’t kill Nappa than how the heck can they grant such enormous power?

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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:47 am

Because the power didn't come from the dragon, it came from Granolah's own future potential.

Same reason why Porunga was able to restore SSJ3 Goku to full power in the Buu saga after he exhausted all of his stamina. It's not granting power from an external source, but optimizing the potential power that's already present.

BTW, a more creatively worded wish could have dealt with the Saiyans too. Such as "I wish their space pods would break down and disintegrate in the middle of interstellar space".
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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by The Golden God » Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:12 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:47 am Because the power didn't come from the dragon, it came from Granolah's own future potential.

Same reason why Porunga was able to restore SSJ3 Goku to full power in the Buu saga after he exhausted all of his stamina. It's not granting power from an external source, but optimizing the potential power that's already present.

BTW, a more creatively worded wish could have dealt with the Saiyans too. Such as "I wish their space pods would break down and disintegrate in the middle of interstellar space".
Good point. And yeah the characters could avoid so much suffering if they were a bit more clever with their wishes. But then again Goku and Vegeta like solving everything with their own power.

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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:33 am

To Avatron's answer, I'd also add that Toronbo seems to be able to "help out" the summoner with their wish. "I can't do that however... ", he seems like a good salesman, while the other dragons are more like "nope, next question".

Being summoned by gathering just two dragon balls also opens the door to other possibilities than with the other dragons.

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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by BWri » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:28 am

The Golden God wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:12 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:47 am Because the power didn't come from the dragon, it came from Granolah's own future potential.

Same reason why Porunga was able to restore SSJ3 Goku to full power in the Buu saga after he exhausted all of his stamina. It's not granting power from an external source, but optimizing the potential power that's already present.

BTW, a more creatively worded wish could have dealt with the Saiyans too. Such as "I wish their space pods would break down and disintegrate in the middle of interstellar space".
Good point. And yeah the characters could avoid so much suffering if they were a bit more clever with their wishes. But then again Goku and Vegeta like solving everything with their own power.
That or Krillin could've made the same wish Granolah did and he actually would've been way stronger than Vegeta, Nappa, and most of the Ginyu's with only a year or two shaved off of his life.
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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by The Golden God » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:38 am

BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:28 am
The Golden God wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:12 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:47 am Because the power didn't come from the dragon, it came from Granolah's own future potential.

Same reason why Porunga was able to restore SSJ3 Goku to full power in the Buu saga after he exhausted all of his stamina. It's not granting power from an external source, but optimizing the potential power that's already present.

BTW, a more creatively worded wish could have dealt with the Saiyans too. Such as "I wish their space pods would break down and disintegrate in the middle of interstellar space".
Good point. And yeah the characters could avoid so much suffering if they were a bit more clever with their wishes. But then again Goku and Vegeta like solving everything with their own power.
That or Krillin could've made the same wish Granolah did and he actually would've been way stronger than Vegeta, Nappa, and most of the Ginyu's with only a year or two shaved off of his life.
But wait, wasn’t Gohan’s “latent potential” unlocked by Elder Kai in the Buu saga? How come Gohan is dummy strong now? He definitely wasn’t anywhere near Granola’s level against Super Buu, or at least I don’t think so.

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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:49 am

The Golden God wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:38 am
BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:28 am
The Golden God wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:12 am

Good point. And yeah the characters could avoid so much suffering if they were a bit more clever with their wishes. But then again Goku and Vegeta like solving everything with their own power.
That or Krillin could've made the same wish Granolah did and he actually would've been way stronger than Vegeta, Nappa, and most of the Ginyu's with only a year or two shaved off of his life.
But wait, wasn’t Gohan’s “latent potential” unlocked by Elder Kai in the Buu saga? How come Gohan is dummy strong now? He definitely wasn’t anywhere near Granola’s level against Super Buu, or at least I don’t think so.
Both the Namekian elder and Rou Kaioshin could only unlock some of his potential, not all of it.
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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by The Golden God » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:58 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:49 am
The Golden God wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:38 am
BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:28 am
That or Krillin could've made the same wish Granolah did and he actually would've been way stronger than Vegeta, Nappa, and most of the Ginyu's with only a year or two shaved off of his life.
But wait, wasn’t Gohan’s “latent potential” unlocked by Elder Kai in the Buu saga? How come Gohan is dummy strong now? He definitely wasn’t anywhere near Granola’s level against Super Buu, or at least I don’t think so.
Both the Namekian elder and Rou Kaioshin could only unlock some of his potential, not all of it.
Ah, that makes sense.

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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by BWri » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:00 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:49 am
The Golden God wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:38 am
BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:28 am
That or Krillin could've made the same wish Granolah did and he actually would've been way stronger than Vegeta, Nappa, and most of the Ginyu's with only a year or two shaved off of his life.
But wait, wasn’t Gohan’s “latent potential” unlocked by Elder Kai in the Buu saga? How come Gohan is dummy strong now? He definitely wasn’t anywhere near Granola’s level against Super Buu, or at least I don’t think so.
Both the Namekian elder and Rou Kaioshin could only unlock some of his potential, not all of it.
It's more like they could only unlock his "current" potential and not the entire potential of his lifespan like the Dragon did with Granolah.

And potential doesn't really mean total strength, so there's always room to grow. In this way, I'd say Granolah's (lifetime) potential is even lower than Gohan's maybe even lower than Piccolo's because it would have taken him more than a century to reach/surpass Goku and Vegeta's level whereas Gohan and possibly Piccolo aren't far behind them and are much younger comparatively.
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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by Thani » Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:57 pm

BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:00 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:49 am
The Golden God wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:38 am

But wait, wasn’t Gohan’s “latent potential” unlocked by Elder Kai in the Buu saga? How come Gohan is dummy strong now? He definitely wasn’t anywhere near Granola’s level against Super Buu, or at least I don’t think so.
Both the Namekian elder and Rou Kaioshin could only unlock some of his potential, not all of it.
It's more like they could only unlock his "current" potential and not the entire potential of his lifespan like the Dragon did with Granolah.

And potential doesn't really mean total strength, so there's always room to grow. In this way, I'd say Granolah's (lifetime) potential is even lower than Gohan's maybe even lower than Piccolo's because it would have taken him more than a century to reach/surpass Goku and Vegeta's level whereas Gohan and possibly Piccolo aren't far behind them and are much younger comparatively.
But the real reason is that it's completely arbitrary. It doesn't have to make internal sense, as long as it's cool and serve the story at that point in time.

So yeah, Toyo/Tori needed for Granolah to overcome Goku and Vegeta, but Granolah is at beast comparable to Namek saga characters like the Ginyus. How to solve it? A wish! Shouldn't it be kinda beyond the dragon's power? Who cares, it's cool.

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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:05 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:57 pm
BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:00 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:49 am

Both the Namekian elder and Rou Kaioshin could only unlock some of his potential, not all of it.
It's more like they could only unlock his "current" potential and not the entire potential of his lifespan like the Dragon did with Granolah.

And potential doesn't really mean total strength, so there's always room to grow. In this way, I'd say Granolah's (lifetime) potential is even lower than Gohan's maybe even lower than Piccolo's because it would have taken him more than a century to reach/surpass Goku and Vegeta's level whereas Gohan and possibly Piccolo aren't far behind them and are much younger comparatively.
But the real reason is that it's completely arbitrary. It doesn't have to make internal sense, as long as it's cool and serve the story at that point in time.

So yeah, Toyo/Tori needed for Granolah to overcome Goku and Vegeta, but Granolah is at beast comparable to Namek saga characters like the Ginyus. How to solve it? A wish! Shouldn't it be kinda beyond the dragon's power? Who cares, it's cool.
I think the answer would be "then we introduce a new set of orbs with a new dragon, problem solved"

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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by Thani » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:49 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:05 pm
Thani wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:57 pm
BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:00 pm
It's more like they could only unlock his "current" potential and not the entire potential of his lifespan like the Dragon did with Granolah.

And potential doesn't really mean total strength, so there's always room to grow. In this way, I'd say Granolah's (lifetime) potential is even lower than Gohan's maybe even lower than Piccolo's because it would have taken him more than a century to reach/surpass Goku and Vegeta's level whereas Gohan and possibly Piccolo aren't far behind them and are much younger comparatively.
But the real reason is that it's completely arbitrary. It doesn't have to make internal sense, as long as it's cool and serve the story at that point in time.

So yeah, Toyo/Tori needed for Granolah to overcome Goku and Vegeta, but Granolah is at beast comparable to Namek saga characters like the Ginyus. How to solve it? A wish! Shouldn't it be kinda beyond the dragon's power? Who cares, it's cool.
I think the answer would be "then we introduce a new set of orbs with a new dragon, problem solved"
You're not wrong there.

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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:02 pm

Monaito is stronger than Kami, or is just better at dragon magic.

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Re: How come Granola’s Dragon Balls could give him such power but Shenron couldn’t kill the Saiyans?

Post by BWri » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:27 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:57 pm
BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:00 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:49 am

Both the Namekian elder and Rou Kaioshin could only unlock some of his potential, not all of it.
It's more like they could only unlock his "current" potential and not the entire potential of his lifespan like the Dragon did with Granolah.

And potential doesn't really mean total strength, so there's always room to grow. In this way, I'd say Granolah's (lifetime) potential is even lower than Gohan's maybe even lower than Piccolo's because it would have taken him more than a century to reach/surpass Goku and Vegeta's level whereas Gohan and possibly Piccolo aren't far behind them and are much younger comparatively.
But the real reason is that it's completely arbitrary. It doesn't have to make internal sense, as long as it's cool and serve the story at that point in time.

So yeah, Toyo/Tori needed for Granolah to overcome Goku and Vegeta, but Granolah is at beast comparable to Namek saga characters like the Ginyus. How to solve it? A wish! Shouldn't it be kinda beyond the dragon's power? Who cares, it's cool.
To be fair, while it doesn't have to make internal sense, I do think there was an effort made for internal consistency.
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:02 pm Monaito is stronger than Kami, or is just better at dragon magic.
Could be. You'd think there'd be some trade-off for using less orbs to summon a Dragon, but I guess not and maybe Monaito is just haphazard like that. You know, no limits or safeguards on the incredibly powerful wish granting objects.
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