Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:45 am

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:59 am No. Considering Moro ranks higher than every major DB villain besides Black and Frieza in the most recent popularity polls, he obviously fulfilled whatever purpose he was designed for... In spades. Not to mention Moro was the 1st villain who was so amoral and ruthless, despite being immensely powerful, Goku lost all pleasure in fighting him.

Even Frieza "decently" maintained a "Code" in the midst of battle. Say what you want, but the goat was a game changer.
In the last Popularity Poll from August 2021 he ranked behind Granolah. So it seems that even Granolah is already more popular than him. I wouldn't exactly call that a success.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:56 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:45 am
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:59 am No. Considering Moro ranks higher than every major DB villain besides Black and Frieza in the most recent popularity polls, he obviously fulfilled whatever purpose he was designed for... In spades. Not to mention Moro was the 1st villain who was so amoral and ruthless, despite being immensely powerful, Goku lost all pleasure in fighting him.

Even Frieza "decently" maintained a "Code" in the midst of battle. Say what you want, but the goat was a game changer.
In the last Popularity Poll from August 2021 he ranked behind Granolah. So it seems that even Granolah is already more popular than him. I wouldn't exactly call that a success.
But it is.

If the new character driving the story is already in the top all time rankings, the staff has done what they needed to do. The actual majority off the internet like Moro and Granolah more than 80% of the old cast. Many of Super's charactes populate the top 20. That's good.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:01 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:56 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:45 am
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:59 am No. Considering Moro ranks higher than every major DB villain besides Black and Frieza in the most recent popularity polls, he obviously fulfilled whatever purpose he was designed for... In spades. Not to mention Moro was the 1st villain who was so amoral and ruthless, despite being immensely powerful, Goku lost all pleasure in fighting him.

Even Frieza "decently" maintained a "Code" in the midst of battle. Say what you want, but the goat was a game changer.
In the last Popularity Poll from August 2021 he ranked behind Granolah. So it seems that even Granolah is already more popular than him. I wouldn't exactly call that a success.
But it is.

If the new character driving the story is already in the top all time rankings, the staff has done what they needed to do. The actual majority off the internet like Moro and Granolah more than 80% of the old cast. Many of Super's charactes populate the top 20. That's good.
So you are saying that Moro in 3 years and 0 animated, videogame, and merchandise representation, is already more popular than 80% of the old cast that have been featured in animations, videogames, figurines, etc. for 30 years?

Hm Yes, I can believe that :think:

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:04 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:01 pm
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:56 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:45 am

In the last Popularity Poll from August 2021 he ranked behind Granolah. So it seems that even Granolah is already more popular than him. I wouldn't exactly call that a success.
But it is.

If the new character driving the story is already in the top all time rankings, the staff has done what they needed to do. The actual majority off the internet like Moro and Granolah more than 80% of the old cast. Many of Super's charactes populate the top 20. That's good.
So you are saying that Moro in 3 years and 0 animated, videogame, and merchandise representation, is already more popular than 80% of the old cast that have been featured in animations, videogames, figurines, etc. for 30 years?

Hm Yes, I can believe that :think:
I mean... That's what the fans are saying. I can believe that nostalgia can only take the old characters so far. I don't agree with the list, but I can believe it.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:14 pm

The Golden God wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:05 am
This was nightmare fuel. I wish they went all out with Moro and made it an all out horror-themed psychological arc but it ended going down familiar lanes with Moro being overconfident and then losing his cool when things stop going his way. But damn he was creepy before we actually met him.

I really think the monthly release of the manga really chips away at the authors ability to build up tension like in the Z era, because there is no more opportunity to do a more atmospheric chapter with little dialogue as every single chapter needs to move the plot forward at breakneck speed with either battles machine gunned back to back or tons of dialogue bubbles and exposition.
His power came from the souls of the dead he absorbed, so they could have made screaming, ghostly apparitions rising up out of Moro's aura and energy attacks, but that might have been a little dark for Dragon Ball, it is a kids comic at the end of the day.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:19 am

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:04 pm
I mean... That's what the fans are saying. I can believe that nostalgia can only take the old characters so far. I don't agree with the list, but I can believe it.
I looked up this poll, apparently many classic characters like Piccolo and Buu weren't even selectable, so I'd take the results with a grain of salt. Moro and Granola did respectably, but still came out middling at best. All four Heeters were rock bottom. Sometimes the allure of a new character can provide a minor boost, (e.g. occasionally a Doctor Who magazine poll will rank the latest Doctor actor higher than Tom Baker and David Tennant, the usual winners) but it only goes so far when they aren't old enough to establish themselves in pop culture yet.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:33 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:19 am
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:04 pm
I mean... That's what the fans are saying. I can believe that nostalgia can only take the old characters so far. I don't agree with the list, but I can believe it.
I looked up this poll, apparently many classic characters like Piccolo and Buu weren't even selectable, so I'd take the results with a grain of salt. Moro and Granola did respectably, but still came out middling at best. All four Heeters were rock bottom. Sometimes the allure of a new character can provide a minor boost, (e.g. occasionally a Doctor Who magazine poll will rank the latest Doctor actor higher than Tom Baker and David Tennant, the usual winners) but it only goes so far when they aren't old enough to establish themselves in pop culture yet.
I'm looking at the poll on the official site and I see nothing mentioning that only 25 characters were selectable. They just took the top 25. I see the likes of Chi Chi, Gohan, 18 and 17 even made it on the list...

My point about nostalgia is the classic characters haven't done anything relevant and there's a new generation consuming the franchise. I think old US fans, online, totally underestimate or willfully ignore how successful Super has been. Moro and Granolah are obviously doing something right and the story of the Heeters has just begun. With no nostalgia factor to boost their popularity running with decade old fleshed out characters, they are very well received.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:56 am

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:33 pm I'm looking at the poll on the official site and I see nothing mentioning that only 25 characters were selectable. They just took the top 25. I see the likes of Chi Chi, Gohan, 18 and 17 even made it on the list...

My point about nostalgia is the classic characters haven't done anything relevant and there's a new generation consuming the franchise. I think old US fans, online, totally underestimate or willfully ignore how successful Super has been. Moro and Granolah are obviously doing something right and the story of the Heeters has just begun. With no nostalgia factor to boost their popularity running with decade old fleshed out characters, they are very well received.
If that's true, don't you think it's strange that all the Heeters conveniently get lumped together in order at the bottom of the list? Even Oil? I really struggle to believe that Piccolo wouldn't come within the top 10 of a popularity poll if he was included. I know I'm hyping him up specifically, but Piccolo is famously one of those evergreen (heheh) dark horse characters whose popularity never seems to wane. And he's just one example from ye olden times, there's plenty other popular new characters from Super that were mysteriously absent from the list, including Merus, Jiren, Toppo, Hit, Kefla, etc. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't scratch a Super-themed poll, yet Cabba and Oracle Fish would.

I don't deny that Moro and Granola have been well received by portions of the manga-reading fanbase, but if you put them in a truly holistic poll up against all of the classic DB characters as well as the earlier Super newcomers, I'd be surprised if they make it in the top 40. As SupremeKai said, the older characters have decades worth of media and merchandising behind them, whereas Moro and Granola have yet to appear anywhere outside the Super manga.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:48 am

Moro was weird. I genuinely really enjoyed his gang, his design, and his overall presence for a majority of the arc. I even really loved his young form. Its when he first absorbed 7-3 that I felt he took the most notable hit for me. Sure through the whole arc, he didn't have a clearly distinct personality that helped him stand out, but he wasn't so far gone. I felt the final chapters could still help, fully characterize him and make him feel unique. However, the moment we got that classic sleek design model of Moro it was done for him. His fate as being pretty standard was sealed. EXCEPT, to praise the story a bit, they took it to a remarkably interesting place once he fused with the Earth. I think that is one of my favorite ideas from the whole saga and one of the best ideas to make a grand fight that isn't just two gods fighting. The climax in and of itself was also decently solid with the Uub incorporation. It's honestly just the lack of characterization where I feel he was wasted and the pull from him being a full mage into just another fighter.

I think the only two things necessary to improve Moro is to develop him a bit more and help him feel unique along with retooling his fighting style to be more like a caster character until his merger with the planet. I think maybe he should use an astral projection type thing like what Goku does in the climax as a way of showing a sense of superiority. Plus if he does it first it could help explain Goku's usage in the climax and serve as a clever inversion. Maybe Moro uses multiple astral projections like Cell Jrs. so that the Z fighters get some action too? just a thought.

Overall I think Moro was roughly 40% wasted. He really just crumbled in the climactic battle for me and just needed a few tweaks to make him the "Goat" of DBS villains. Hell depending on how good he was done on a whole, he could have maybe challenged some other villains from the series peak.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:55 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:56 am
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:33 pm I'm looking at the poll on the official site and I see nothing mentioning that only 25 characters were selectable. They just took the top 25. I see the likes of Chi Chi, Gohan, 18 and 17 even made it on the list...

My point about nostalgia is the classic characters haven't done anything relevant and there's a new generation consuming the franchise. I think old US fans, online, totally underestimate or willfully ignore how successful Super has been. Moro and Granolah are obviously doing something right and the story of the Heeters has just begun. With no nostalgia factor to boost their popularity running with decade old fleshed out characters, they are very well received.
If that's true, don't you think it's strange that all the Heeters conveniently get lumped together in order at the bottom of the list? Even Oil? I really struggle to believe that Piccolo wouldn't come within the top 10 of a popularity poll if he was included. I know I'm hyping him up specifically, but Piccolo is famously one of those evergreen (heheh) dark horse characters whose popularity never seems to wane. And he's just one example from ye olden times, there's plenty other popular new characters from Super that were mysteriously absent from the list, including Merus, Jiren, Toppo, Hit, Kefla, etc. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't scratch a Super-themed poll, yet Cabba and Oracle Fish would.

I don't deny that Moro and Granola have been well received by portions of the manga-reading fanbase, but if you put them in a truly holistic poll up against all of the classic DB characters as well as the earlier Super newcomers, I'd be surprised if they make it in the top 40. As SupremeKai said, the older characters have decades worth of media and merchandising behind them, whereas Moro and Granola have yet to appear anywhere outside the Super manga.
I think that's the main difference between us. As crazy as what you described sounds, I don't discredit it. I know how huge the fanbase is and how many generations it's compromised of, now. I know way too many kids who think Goku Black is the GOAT, Caulifla is better than every character introduced in Z, and UI is the best transformation in the franchise. It's crazy.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:48 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:55 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:56 am
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:33 pm I'm looking at the poll on the official site and I see nothing mentioning that only 25 characters were selectable. They just took the top 25. I see the likes of Chi Chi, Gohan, 18 and 17 even made it on the list...

My point about nostalgia is the classic characters haven't done anything relevant and there's a new generation consuming the franchise. I think old US fans, online, totally underestimate or willfully ignore how successful Super has been. Moro and Granolah are obviously doing something right and the story of the Heeters has just begun. With no nostalgia factor to boost their popularity running with decade old fleshed out characters, they are very well received.
If that's true, don't you think it's strange that all the Heeters conveniently get lumped together in order at the bottom of the list? Even Oil? I really struggle to believe that Piccolo wouldn't come within the top 10 of a popularity poll if he was included. I know I'm hyping him up specifically, but Piccolo is famously one of those evergreen (heheh) dark horse characters whose popularity never seems to wane. And he's just one example from ye olden times, there's plenty other popular new characters from Super that were mysteriously absent from the list, including Merus, Jiren, Toppo, Hit, Kefla, etc. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't scratch a Super-themed poll, yet Cabba and Oracle Fish would.

I don't deny that Moro and Granola have been well received by portions of the manga-reading fanbase, but if you put them in a truly holistic poll up against all of the classic DB characters as well as the earlier Super newcomers, I'd be surprised if they make it in the top 40. As SupremeKai said, the older characters have decades worth of media and merchandising behind them, whereas Moro and Granola have yet to appear anywhere outside the Super manga.
I think that's the main difference between us. As crazy as what you described sounds, I don't discredit it. I know how huge the fanbase is and how many generations it's compromised of, now. I know way too many kids who think Goku Black is the GOAT, Caulifla is better than every character introduced in Z, and UI is the best transformation in the franchise. It's crazy.
I mean, Zamasu is the GOAT though, that's not really crazy or anything :think:

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:41 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:55 pm I think that's the main difference between us. As crazy as what you described sounds, I don't discredit it. I know how huge the fanbase is and how many generations it's compromised of, now. I know way too many kids who think Goku Black is the GOAT, Caulifla is better than every character introduced in Z, and UI is the best transformation in the franchise. It's crazy.
I don't disagree that people love Black and Caulifla as much as veteran fans love Freeza and Cell, but my only objection is that Moro and Granola are already on that level when they haven't had nearly as much exposure, s'all I'm saying.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by Charlie's Shadow » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:30 pm

I honestly think that Moro was being set up to have a bigger role. He seemed knowledgeable about the gods, even acknowledging omen as a technique of the gods and seemed to be annoyed by that. He also seemed to have a bigger plan in mind when talking to sanganbo.
In namek, he was also show to be calm and collected, smart, cunning. He avoided physical confrontations that he knew he couldn't win, and used the prisoners and his other abilities in strategic ways to ensure his win.

In general, there was a mysterious and dark aura about him, which was complemented well by his earlier designs. He seemed unique and different.

But I think that making his magic just "absorbing stuff" was the first step towards his ruin. While it was used strategically, it wasn't very unique and it was quite limited by concept alone.

But then all of that potential gets progressively scrapped. When he arrives on earth, he becomes much more of your average brawler. And all traces of his personality and cleverness are gone after Vegeta arrives. He keeps physically fighting Vegeta even after understanding what was happening. He doesn't even seem aware of what Merus actually is, and that isn't explored at all. He freaks out when he sees MUI. He doesn't even acknowledge that Beerus and Whis are present, and perhaps doesn't even know what they are, despite having some knowledge even about UI. He becomes the most bland and generic villain possible, with the most generic motivation of.... Being strong and eating. His dialogue and reactions are boring and generic (which seems to be a recurring problem with Toyotaro. Manga black has the same issue, and Granola seems to be going the same path.)

We all know how DB works. But using some tweaks and concepts to explore new-ish directions can be a good thing. Moro didn't need to be a reformulation of the franchise. Just a different kind of villain that results in different fights and resolutions instead of the classic "more power". And in concept, that is what Moro seemed to be going for. So he did have a lot of potential, but ultimately gets absolutely discarded, resulting in a finale which I personally find to be boring and disappointing.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:25 pm

the problem with moro is that it is less versatile than babidi .... in magic

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by Thani » Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:02 pm

Charlie's Shadow wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:30 pm I honestly think that Moro was being set up to have a bigger role. He seemed knowledgeable about the gods, even acknowledging omen as a technique of the gods and seemed to be annoyed by that. He also seemed to have a bigger plan in mind when talking to sanganbo.
In namek, he was also show to be calm and collected, smart, cunning. He avoided physical confrontations that he knew he couldn't win, and used the prisoners and his other abilities in strategic ways to ensure his win.

In general, there was a mysterious and dark aura about him, which was complemented well by his earlier designs. He seemed unique and different.

But I think that making his magic just "absorbing stuff" was the first step towards his ruin. While it was used strategically, it wasn't very unique and it was quite limited by concept alone.

But then all of that potential gets progressively scrapped. When he arrives on earth, he becomes much more of your average brawler. And all traces of his personality and cleverness are gone after Vegeta arrives. He keeps physically fighting Vegeta even after understanding what was happening. He doesn't even seem aware of what Merus actually is, and that isn't explored at all. He freaks out when he sees MUI. He doesn't even acknowledge that Beerus and Whis are present, and perhaps doesn't even know what they are, despite having some knowledge even about UI. He becomes the most bland and generic villain possible, with the most generic motivation of.... Being strong and eating. His dialogue and reactions are boring and generic (which seems to be a recurring problem with Toyotaro. Manga black has the same issue, and Granola seems to be going the same path.)

We all know how DB works. But using some tweaks and concepts to explore new-ish directions can be a good thing. Moro didn't need to be a reformulation of the franchise. Just a different kind of villain that results in different fights and resolutions instead of the classic "more power". And in concept, that is what Moro seemed to be going for. So he did have a lot of potential, but ultimately gets absolutely discarded, resulting in a finale which I personally find to be boring and disappointing.
Well, I'll be damned. That was a marvelous review of the whole thing, and I pretty much agree with this.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by The Golden God » Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:09 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:14 pm
The Golden God wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:05 am
This was nightmare fuel. I wish they went all out with Moro and made it an all out horror-themed psychological arc but it ended going down familiar lanes with Moro being overconfident and then losing his cool when things stop going his way. But damn he was creepy before we actually met him.

I really think the monthly release of the manga really chips away at the authors ability to build up tension like in the Z era, because there is no more opportunity to do a more atmospheric chapter with little dialogue as every single chapter needs to move the plot forward at breakneck speed with either battles machine gunned back to back or tons of dialogue bubbles and exposition.
His power came from the souls of the dead he absorbed, so they could have made screaming, ghostly apparitions rising up out of Moro's aura and energy attacks, but that might have been a little dark for Dragon Ball, it is a kids comic at the end of the day.
Hunter x Hunter is a kid’s manga and it’s terrifying.

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by Geraldo » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:43 pm

I remember waiting through 2019 and 2020 that there'll be at least one chapter to explain moro's backstory. It was weird to build him without an exposition. And no, that lackluster tidbit fight against the Supreme Kais we got wasn't fitting such a "big bad".

The moro arc lost it's appeal to me once it dragged and especially after the introduction of the Galactic Prisoners.

I mean, it felt unnecessary for him to have goons as he could simply use his magic to travel across the universe. If he had anything magical other than energy absorption, mind reading, the ability to sense whether he's being watched/sensed and the ability to eat a Bio-Android and fuse with it on a cellular level.

But at least the Human Z-Fighters got to shine for a bit. Especially Yamcha and Chiaotzu, who got the boot since Resurrection 'F' and throughout the run of "Super" (while the much weaker Master Roshi got to shine *sigh*).

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Re: Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

Post by Draconic » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:31 am

Moro had a cool design and a cool introduction but there was no reason for him to be a Universe 7 exclusive villain, considering the cosmic scope of the arc, with angels and UI being the crux of the arc.
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