Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

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Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:49 am

With all that's been written since, how well does that initial prediction hold up at this point? Goku & Vegeta still lose to Beerus with enhanced SSJG forms, Beerus was seen fighting his brother(Champa, who is also a Hakaishin) in the past, and even fought the other Hakaishin in a brief free-for-all. Where does Goku's first run as a SSJG and battle with Beerus fit as being anything close to an "ultimate opponent" nowadays?
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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by fleahop » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:25 am

Might have been a misinterpretation. Something like the Super Saiyan God will be his ultimate opponent, but not necessarily immediately. OR it could be that it was his ultimate opponent in that he was the first to win him over and keep him from destroying the planet.

Also didn't the oracle fish say that he's not always right?
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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by Xeogran » Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:37 am

If SSG Goku deals the final hit on Beerus in a rematch where Goku wins, that'd be hella great :thumbup:

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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by BWri » Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:27 am

It's probably not the form itself that was prophesied but a Super Saiyan God itself. Technically Goku and Vegeta are Super Saiyain gods even when they are using forms such as SSB, UI, and the Hakai form.

The worst thing about all this, to me, is that Goku did all that convoluted stuff to become a god and yet Vegeta just trained. It kind of undermines the prophecy to me, but this is Dragon Ball.

I do hope SSJG gets expanded upon. I'm still hoping for a flamelike SSJG form, but Hakai now has the flames on it too.
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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:30 pm

I mean...they can utilize God Ki and such, so it isn’t as false as one would presume.
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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:28 pm

BWri wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:27 amThe worst thing about all this, to me, is that Goku did all that convoluted stuff to become a god and yet Vegeta just trained. It kind of undermines the prophecy to me, but this is Dragon Ball.
Vegeta also did all that convoluted stuff in the movie continuity. If that's an issue for you, you may want to consider it instead of Toei retellings.
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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by BWri » Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:33 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:28 pm
BWri wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:27 amThe worst thing about all this, to me, is that Goku did all that convoluted stuff to become a god and yet Vegeta just trained. It kind of undermines the prophecy to me, but this is Dragon Ball.
Vegeta also did all that convoluted stuff in the movie continuity. If that's an issue for you, you may want to consider it instead of Toei retellings.
Did he? Oh well, even if he did it in the movies, those don't connect to the anime or manga, so I have to accept the continuity of those.
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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:37 pm

But the manga never said how Vegeta got Super Saiyan God. We don't know if the ritual happened or if he trained. The latter only happens in the anime.

Also, anime and manga are also disconnected from one another, it's two different continuities (three with the movies).
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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:24 pm

Somewhat. I wrote an essay-length topic discussing why Beerus seemingly lost interest in all the stronger people and transformations that emerged after Super Saiyan God. Whatever the case, at the time, the Super Saiyan God was the only legend he knew of that could give him a decent challenge and he was ultimately satisfied with what he got. Super Saiyan God was merely the first step, an omen if you will :wink: that gave Goku the leg-up necessary to reach the higher divine forms. Worth noting that for Beerus, he believed that the Super Saiyan God must be a person rather than a transformation, so the prophecy is still true (from a certain point of view) as the wielder of the form has grown into a worthy rival capable of dethroning him, not just the form itself.

Kinda makes me wish the series took Goku and Vegeta's godly titles more seriously. Doesn't Whis outright declare them gods, yet they are still classed as mere mortals for the rest of the series. Perhaps another tournament happens and because their Angel/Hakaishin abilities would make the competition unfair for the other mortals, Zeno disqualifies them and has them sit with the other gods.

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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:25 am

It's not a lie, just unplanned writing.
The original story of BOG was not supposed to get such an extended sequel into DBS.
Beerus role as a character would have become nearly insignificant next to Gokus and Vegetas power-ups later on, if they didn't cranck him up to match and even surpass MUI-levels of strength.

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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:39 am

Mister_Popo wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:25 am It's not a lie, just unplanned writing.
The original story of BOG was not supposed to get such an extended sequel into DBS.
Beerus role as a character would have become nearly insignificant next to Gokus and Vegetas power-ups later on, if they didn't cranck him up to match and even surpass MUI-levels of strength.
I have hypothesized before if Beerus may have had or would get his own power up, one that would allow him to bridge the gap against Goku & Vegeta if they got the jump on him in power. However, it looks like now that Toriyama & Toyotaro are writing Beerus as just being an ever-moving goalpost whose power still causes Goku to crap his pants even with Perfected UI to his name.
It really makes you wonder just how much Beerus was holding back against Goku when they fought.
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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:45 pm

theherodjl wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:39 am
Mister_Popo wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:25 am It's not a lie, just unplanned writing.
The original story of BOG was not supposed to get such an extended sequel into DBS.
Beerus role as a character would have become nearly insignificant next to Gokus and Vegetas power-ups later on, if they didn't cranck him up to match and even surpass MUI-levels of strength.
I have hypothesized before if Beerus may have had or would get his own power up, one that would allow him to bridge the gap against Goku & Vegeta if they got the jump on him in power. However, it looks like now that Toriyama & Toyotaro are writing Beerus as just being an ever-moving goalpost whose power still causes Goku to crap his pants even with Perfected UI to his name.
It really makes you wonder just how much Beerus was holding back against Goku when they fought.



By the time of the movie BOG it made perfect sense. Within that context it's not a lie, not even a miscalculation.
They could somehow restore the intention of 'Goku being the one predicted by the Oracle Fish as becoming a challenger to Beerus' by installing a rematch at some point, when Goku is effectively strong enough to put up a descent fight. Beerus would probably catscratch this version of MUI in an instant when things really got serious.

Beerus 'only using 70 % in BOG' was retconned in Super anyway, it doesn't matter much anymore.
Maybe, by the time Goku reaches Beerus limit, Beerus will acknowledge 'you weren't strong enough to challenge me then, but i knew you could get that potential when i let you train, that's why i spared you and your world'.
Maybe not the greatest of solutions ... But at least with such a perspective, things could still 'somehow make sense' at the end.

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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:51 pm

Mister_Popo wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:45 pmBy the time of the movie BOG it made perfect sense. Within that context it's not a lie, not even a miscalculation.
They could somehow restore the intention of 'Goku being the one predicted by the Oracle Fish as becoming a challenger to Beerus' by installing a rematch at some point, when Goku is effectively strong enough to put up a descent fight. Beerus would probably catscratch this version of MUI in an instant when things really got serious.

Beerus 'only using 70 % in BOG' was retconned in Super anyway, it doesn't matter much anymore.
Maybe, by the time Goku reaches Beerus limit, Beerus will acknowledge 'you weren't strong enough to challenge me then, but i knew you could get that potential when i let you train, that's why i spared you and your world'.
Maybe not the greatest of solutions ... But at least with such a perspective, things could still 'somehow make sense' at the end.
It was probably retconned before that in the ROF film since there is a disparity in how strong Goku & Vegeta had become and how much of a gap was supposed to be left between them, Freeza, and Beerus. A statement in supplementary material confirmed that while Golden Freeza was above SSJB, Golden Freeza also stood no chance against Beerus. Whis stated in the film that Goku & Vegeta working together might be enough to defeat Beerus which puts Toriyama's initial figure into jeopardy unless SSJB is merely comparable to SSJG in the movie continuity.
Maybe the 70% line wasn't meant to be Beerus' true power in any event, just 70% of the power he chose to use against Goku? I don't know.
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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by MajinPopo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:01 am

While it may have been borne from retcons and poor planning, I feel like this is something that can be easily explained away.

We have to keep in mind that Whis is Beerus' MASTER, not just his attendant. Thus, any action that Whis takes must be in the furtherance of Beerus' own training.

Remember how Beerus and Whis maintained the Monaka fraud to motivate Goku to train? Why would we not assume that Whis trains Beerus in a similar manner? I propose that Beerus's "Monaka" is the Oracle Fish.

Beerus sleeps a lot, and is ultimately a fairly petty being. It's been acknowledged that the Gods of U7 aren't doing that great a job. Thus, the impetus is there for Whis to want to motivate Beerus.

It wouldn't do, and would perhaps violate some kind of "direct intervention" Angel protocol if Whis just handed a God of Destruction a list of strong opponents to fight against. That seems like a very destructive practice.

But, if you can use the Oracle Fish to vaguely suggest a prophecy that Beerus can use his free will to pursue or not, you can further Beerus's own training and keep him occupied to prevent further destruction-on-a-whim on the other 27 planets, while at the same time also using a group of strong and ultimately noble humans to raise the Mortal level of the Universe and cultivating two of them into students.

The Super Saiyan God prophecy was never the be-all, end-all. It was Beerus's shiny cat toy.

I propose that Whis pretty much possesses the Oracle Fish in the same manner that Kami possessed that dude and called himself "Shin". Whis is psychically controlling the Oracle Fish, to further Beerus' training as well as Goku and Vegeta's.

It's probably as direct as Whis can be in the happenings of the universe.

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Re: Does SSJG Being Beerus' "Ultimate Opponent" Seem Like A Complete Lie Now?

Post by Mister_Popo » Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:49 am

Agreed a rematch Goku-Beerus should never be the be--all-ending of Super, merely something that would tie up or resolve some loose ends of the BOG arc later on in the story. For some reason however, Beerus training his ass off 'of-screen', let alone to beat mortals, even when "motivated" by Whis, just doesn't fit the essence of the character to me, being the lazy cat he is.

I'd rather prefer the idea of Goku surpassing Beerus at some point being just something that was needed (with Whis training him and Beerus setting some sort of "benchmark"), for a bigger role he still had to furfill within a larger scheme of things later on (endgame battle?) .

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