Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

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Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by GalaxyBusterBuu » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:34 pm

When it comes down to it, I feel kind of bad for Gowasu. The man was legit just trying to teach Zamasu for years to get him to at least tolerate mortals but it wasn't working. He tried so fucking hard yet the blind spots he had about his apprentice blinded him to how evil Zamasu became until it was too late.

In all honesty, Gowasu's biggest mistake was not noticing Zamasu's decline faster and underestimating how bad his hatred would get. Not just talking about what we saw on screen but given Zamasu has been with Gowasu for thousands of years, this was a long time coming.

Something like this was bound to happen, all Goku did(anime wise) was accelerate the process and cause Zamasu to snap harder than he would've done naturally. If Gowasu had noticed this and tried to do something about it in a more proactive manner it's likely something could've been done about it before Zamasu thought about his Zero Mortal Plan.

In the end, I do think Zamasu turning evil could've been prevented had Gowasu just noticed Zamasu declining and tried to actively prevent it instead of just lecturing him because by the time we see Zamasu it's pretty obvious that Gowasu's lectures held little effect that they may have once had over him. Maybe in the beginning his lectures kept Zamasu in line, but over the eons Zamasu grew disillusioned and more radical in his beliefs and Gowasu didn't notice just how bad it was until it was far too late for anything to be done for Zamasu as he already went off the deep-end and had to be erased by Beerus to ensure he didn't become Goku Black.

And before anyone doubts me, let's look at Future Zamasu before Black showed up. Future Zamasu had no interaction Goku because Goku already died decades ago due to the heart virus. As a result, Zamasu was pretty much chilling in Universe 10 up until Goku Black arrived. While Future Zamasu clearly was thinking about the Zero Mortal Plan given how quickly he joined Black, he likely wouldn't have started it on his own had Black not arrived.

Mainly because how the hell would Zamasu do that on his own? He didn't know Goku existed and even if he did, Goku was weaker than Future Zamasu when he died so stealing his body would be pointless. Goku's existence was the reason Present Zamasu in both source media's began to turn evil as in the manga, Zamasu was angry that a mortal could be so strong while in the anime he was pissed that not only was he strong, but he had disrespected him.

Future Zamasu was pretty much living the dream and had no idea Goku existed meaning it's unlikely he'd try anything on his own. He's not harmless at that point but without Black intervening he's basically passive. He's not a threat and in all honesty, if Gowasu tried to push him just a bit he could've worked on getting Zamasu to tolerate mortals and their flaws, especially since there's no Goku around to cause Zamasu to get snappy.

Hell, I'm convinced if Black hadn't shown up Zamasu probably would've just kept his head down and lived as an apprentice until Gowasu died naturally, allowing him to take his place. Future Zamasu had no drive to do anything on his own until Black showed up so if Black hadn't arrived he'd just live the rest of his life bitter about the affairs of mortals but ultimately doesn't have enough drive to actually do anything about it due to the lack of power and having no one who shares his beliefs around to help him.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:44 pm

Gowasu was simply a foolish teacher. What is important to remember is that Zamasu had not made up his mind until AFTER he saw Planet Babari, where he literally says "This proves it, so long as mortals exist, the cosmos will never have peace". So basically what this means is that Zamasu was still willing to give mortals a chance PRE-PLANET BABARI. Planet Babari was the last straw.

So essentially Gowasu could have swayed Zamasu from his dark path very easily by simply showing him an advanced civilization, like for example Planet Namek, or the Universe 3. A civilization that shows that mortals use their gifts to create wonders of technology, or to live a humble and peaceful life and be wise and good.

Instead he showed him literally the worst fucking example imaginable, a planet of barbarians who can only fight and murder each others and can't even speak. One of the barbarians even tried to assault Gowasu and Zamasu.

People like to downplay the whole incident in Planet Babari, but it was instrumental to Zamasu's fall from grace. It was when he saw the babarians senselessly murdering each others in cold blood that he decided mortals were a blight. Or as he says "that the gift the Gods gave them should be taken back" (i.e. they should all be killed).

That's why at the end of the arc Gowasu says something like "This is my sin too, I failed you Zamasu, we both did". He was his teacher, the one who was meant to enlighten him and set him on the path of good, and he failed completely. It was Gowasu's fault too that Zamasu turned out the way he did. Since he was a terrible and naive teacher.

But enough talk about the Present Zamasu (Goku Black). Since you brought up Future Zamasu, Yes Future Zamasu by his own admission lacked the will to act. He despaired at the action of mortals but, because he never met Future Goku, he lacked the push and will to act. So he was pretty much without will and purpose until Black killed Gowasu and met with him. If Gowasu never told Zamasu (Goku Black) about the Super Dragon Balls, then Zamasu (Goku Black) would have lacked the means to carry out his plans, which in turn means that he would have never met with Future Zamasu and convinced him to act against mortals.

So Yeah Gowasu really was a failure as a teacher, it's good that he at least admitted that in the end he also failed Zamasu :think:

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:25 pm

I am going to second SupremeKai25 here. Gowasu was honestly way too lax, considering how dangerously problematic Zamasu’s statement have been. He should have put his foot down hard, especially after seeing Zamasu kill a primitive mortal.
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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:32 pm

Gowasu alone didn't underestimate Zamasu, Shin did too. He clearly heard Zamasu talk about beings with "unnecessary existences" with such a casual smile on his face during their first meeting. Shin even looked a little concerned that he had just heard a Kaioshin apprentice say that...yet somehow, Shin utterly forgot about that when Beerus later asked him if he knew any Gods with extreme, anti-mortal viewpoints. Its no wonder that Shin does so poorly in his job when he absentmindedly did not remember that impression even though it was mere days ago.
Maybe Zamasu had a point in how complacent the Gods had become?
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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:56 am

I agree that Gowasu did underestimate Zamasu. But in the manga Zamasu desired Kakarot's power after he saw him on God-Tube as I recall. I could be wrong about this though.
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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:49 pm

Gowasu was a coward. He should have insisted that Zamasu be erased after his comments on Babari. Perhaps it wasn't yet clear exactly how insane Zamasu would become, but it should have been completely clear how unfit he was for his position. Best of all, we wouldn't have had to suffer through the entire arc :D

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:35 am

You know Op, now that I think about it, we can't even blame Gowasu too much. Because pretty much EVERYONE underestimated Zamasu and his plan, and they all paid for it dearly.

I suppose that's a natural outcome of Zamasu being a master manipulator who can easily and skilfully take advantage of people :think:

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:48 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:35 am You know Op, now that I think about it, we can't even blame Gowasu too much. Because pretty much EVERYONE underestimated Zamasu and his plan, and they all paid for it dearly.

I suppose that's a natural outcome of Zamasu being a master manipulator who can easily and skilfully take advantage of people :think:
I suppose evil kais don't pop up so frequently
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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:55 am

PurestEvil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:48 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:35 am You know Op, now that I think about it, we can't even blame Gowasu too much. Because pretty much EVERYONE underestimated Zamasu and his plan, and they all paid for it dearly.

I suppose that's a natural outcome of Zamasu being a master manipulator who can easily and skilfully take advantage of people :think:
I suppose evil kais don't pop up so frequently
Nope, Zamasu could have been anything else and he would've still been underestimated.

Who could have imagined that one person had the will and skill to go to such lengths? Taking the Time Ring, gathering the Super Dragon Balls twice, destroying the Super Dragon Balls, Killing all the Gods in all Twelve Universes,wishing for Immortality, laying waste to the entire Cosmos, etc. etc. etc.

It's kind of like Palpatine in how both villains seemed harmless at first (young Kai apprentice/old gentle-looking politician), only to turn into the greatest threat the Universe has ever seen.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:53 am

I think it’s quite the contrary. Gowasu actually overestimated Zamasu’s qualities for the position and ignored his evil mentality.

He just ended up being what he was supposed to be, a villain. Nothing more, nothing less. His plan was quite predictable and logical, if you actually watch him with attention. Gowasu was just naive.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:17 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:53 am I think it’s quite the contrary. Gowasu actually overestimated Zamasu’s qualities for the position and ignored his evil mentality.

He just ended up being what he was supposed to be, a villain. Nothing more, nothing less. His plan was quite predictable and logical, if you actually watch him with attention. Gowasu was just naive.
Gowasu, Beerus, and Whis.

Beerus thought that killing the Present Zamasu would cause Goku Black to disappear, but Goku Black deceived him by using the Time Ring for protection (even making fun of Beerus for not knowing this).

Whis thought that Goku Black was a puppet created by Zamasu, while in truth he is the actual Zamasu who wished to switch bodies with Goku.

No one even had any clue about Black's true identity until Black literally told them he's Zamasu. A version of Zamasu that successfully killed Gowasu.

Everyone else (Goku, Trunks, etc.) thought Whis was right and Black was just a puppet created by Zamasu, not knowing that he actually is Zamasu. So they were all deceived. Zamasu's plan was genius and no one could figure out what he really did.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:45 am

I get that you like Zamasu and I’m not saying he is a fool, but saying he has genius intellect is a reach. He only deceived the characters you mentioned because of plot-induced stupidity and to be fair lack of knowledge of what the time ring can do.

His ki was Zamasu’s, so you could figure it out as soon as Goku fought him.

And if Goku had brought the seal to the containment wave, Future Zamasu would be successfully sealed and their mission would have ended much sooner, without the need of divine intervention.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:54 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:45 am I get that you like Zamasu and I’m not saying he is a fool, but saying he has genius intellect is a reach. He only deceived the characters you mentioned because of plot-induced stupidity and to be fair lack of knowledge of what the time ring can do.

His ki was Zamasu’s, so you could figure it out as soon as Goku fought him.

And if Goku had brought the seal to the containment wave, Future Zamasu would be successfully sealed and their mission would have ended much sooner, without the need of divine intervention.
Lol, if we bring plot-induced stupidity into this then all these people would have been pulverized by Zamasu :lol:

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:26 pm

I don't think it's correct that people underestimated Zamasu, or even that the things he accomplished were particularly difficult or impressive. What he did was so ridiculous, so foolish and irresponsible, so inexplicable and, well, insane, that no one saw it coming or was prepared to clean up his mess. He lied and stole from Kais that trusted him, and for what? A demented, hateful, genocidal dream that he can't even properly articulate?

His actions were careless and selfish to the extent that Zeno himself had to step in and delete an entire timeline. But were they impressive? No. He was able to get away with them because no one would have ever expected a Kai to even want to commit the despicable hate crimes that he attempted.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:06 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:55 am
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:48 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:35 am You know Op, now that I think about it, we can't even blame Gowasu too much. Because pretty much EVERYONE underestimated Zamasu and his plan, and they all paid for it dearly.

I suppose that's a natural outcome of Zamasu being a master manipulator who can easily and skilfully take advantage of people :think:
I suppose evil kais don't pop up so frequently
Nope, Zamasu could have been anything else and he would've still been underestimated.

Who could have imagined that one person had the will and skill to go to such lengths? Taking the Time Ring, gathering the Super Dragon Balls twice, destroying the Super Dragon Balls, Killing all the Gods in all Twelve Universes,wishing for Immortality, laying waste to the entire Cosmos, etc. etc. etc.

It's kind of like Palpatine in how both villains seemed harmless at first (young Kai apprentice/old gentle-looking politician), only to turn into the greatest threat the Universe has ever seen.
Appropriate analogy.
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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by pepd » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:47 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:55 am
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:48 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:35 am You know Op, now that I think about it, we can't even blame Gowasu too much. Because pretty much EVERYONE underestimated Zamasu and his plan, and they all paid for it dearly.

I suppose that's a natural outcome of Zamasu being a master manipulator who can easily and skilfully take advantage of people :think:
I suppose evil kais don't pop up so frequently
Nope, Zamasu could have been anything else and he would've still been underestimated.

Who could have imagined that one person had the will and skill to go to such lengths? Taking the Time Ring, gathering the Super Dragon Balls twice, destroying the Super Dragon Balls, Killing all the Gods in all Twelve Universes,wishing for Immortality, laying waste to the entire Cosmos, etc. etc. etc.

It's kind of like Palpatine in how both villains seemed harmless at first (young Kai apprentice/old gentle-looking politician), only to turn into the greatest threat the Universe has ever seen.
The only one he fooled was Gowasu, the others not suspecting him is not on him, and when he tried to lie when discovered no one believed him, and he panicked and attacked.
He got the timerings by lying and stealing from a trusting Gowasu, got the DBs twice by threatening Zuno with violence, destroyed the DBs and got immortality by wishing it, and killed the twelve Hakaishins by murdering the weaker kaiōshins.

It does require determination and ruthlessness, but no particular skill.
--

Anyway, I agree on that it would be more accurate to say that Gowasu overestimated him, since what he was hopeful about and estimated wrongly was Zamasu's ability to understand the position, and the good in him.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by capsulecorp » Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:28 am

Anyway, I agree on that it would be more accurate to say that Gowasu overestimated him, since what he was hopeful about and estimated wrongly was Zamasu's ability to understand the position, and the good in him.
That's a very humane perspective, well said.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:21 am

pepd wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:47 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:55 am
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:48 am

I suppose evil kais don't pop up so frequently
Nope, Zamasu could have been anything else and he would've still been underestimated.

Who could have imagined that one person had the will and skill to go to such lengths? Taking the Time Ring, gathering the Super Dragon Balls twice, destroying the Super Dragon Balls, Killing all the Gods in all Twelve Universes,wishing for Immortality, laying waste to the entire Cosmos, etc. etc. etc.

It's kind of like Palpatine in how both villains seemed harmless at first (young Kai apprentice/old gentle-looking politician), only to turn into the greatest threat the Universe has ever seen.
The only one he fooled was Gowasu, the others not suspecting him is not on him, and when he tried to lie when discovered no one believed him, and he panicked and attacked.
He got the timerings by lying and stealing from a trusting Gowasu, got the DBs twice by threatening Zuno with violence, destroyed the DBs and got immortality by wishing it, and killed the twelve Hakaishins by murdering the weaker kaiōshins.

It does require determination and ruthlessness, but no particular skill.
--

Anyway, I agree on that it would be more accurate to say that Gowasu overestimated him, since what he was hopeful about and estimated wrongly was Zamasu's ability to understand the position, and the good in him.
You forgot to mention that the Present Zamasu was exposed only because they literally saw the future and knew what he was about to do, and got a lead from Goku Black's appearance (with the whole time travel paradox that leads to).

If the flow of events had gone as history originally dictated, Zamasu would have successfully killed Gowasu, took the Time Ring and rank Supreme Kai, and switched bodies with Goku. Without anybody suspecting him.

Also worth noting is that Zamasu didn't really panick when he attacked Goku and co. He was told by Goku that in the Future his plan was executed with success, so he thought he was destined to win. Foolhardy and bold perhaps, but he was TOLD that he was successful in the Future so...

Also, when I said his plan was underestimated, it's because his plan was indeed underestimated. They all thought Black was a puppet created by Zamasu when the reality is that he was much more than that (he was Zamasu, so not some mindless puppet enslaved by Zamasu).
got the DBs twice by threatening Zuno with violence
It should also be noted that the Super DBs are massive planet-sized orbs, so to gather them twice is an impressive feat of power and logistics if anything.
It does require determination and ruthlessness, but no particular skill.
It requires extensive and thorough long-term planning. He knew that he lacked strength so he took Goku's body, he knew that he could still be killed so he recruited an invincible ally, he knew that he needed to trust that ally completely to cover for him, so he recruit a counterpart of him, he knew that the other Gods would interfere so he chose a timeline where Beerus was already gone to quickly execute his plan of killing all other Gods (if Beerus was still alive, he would have sensed his presence and would have destroyed him before that happened) -> With Beerus dead, he had the element of surprise on his side.

So this proves incredible long-term planning. Zamasu pretty much accomplished everything he set out to do. Did he mess up any step of his plan? Not really, when his enemies literally needed "miraculous" power (as stated in the episode title) to defeat him. They literally needed a miracle to win.And even then they still couldn't put him down for good.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Scientist Fu » Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:14 am

Zamasu had doubts about mortals since the day he saw mortals repeating the same mistakes over the years, Gowasu is not responsible for Zamasu's doubts. At some point, Zamasu would have degenerated anyway, if it was not Gowasu it could have been something or someone else triggering the event, later or sooner. Blaming Gowasu because Zamasu was bad enough to take actions when Gowasu clearly told him that he could not interfer, that it was not his job to destroy things. Even if Gowasu only showed mortals' good side or good examples Zamasu's doubts would never go away because one day he would see or meet other evil beings. Zamasu was good at birth just like Shin, then he became bad, and he became bad because he choose to, not because people led him to be bad. He also never accepted his role, nor his place. He wanted to be more than a mere Kaio Shin, getting arrogant, feeling superior to everyone when in reality he was weaker than a SSJ2.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:14 am

Scientist Fu wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:14 am Zamasu had doubts about mortals since the day he saw mortals repeating the same mistakes over the years, Gowasu is not responsible for Zamasu's doubts. At some point, Zamasu would have degenerated anyway, if it was not Gowasu it could have been something or someone else triggering the event, later or sooner. Blaming Gowasu because Zamasu was bad enough to take actions when Gowasu clearly told him that he could not interfer, that it was not his job to destroy things. Even if Gowasu only showed mortals' good side or good examples Zamasu's doubts would never go away because one day he would see or meet other evil beings. Zamasu was good at birth just like Shin, then he became bad, and he became bad because he choose to, not because people led him to be bad. He also never accepted his role, nor his place. He wanted to be more than a mere Kaio Shin, getting arrogant, feeling superior to everyone when in reality he was weaker than a SSJ2.
Canonically, Gowasu partially blames himself for the mess that happened, saying that he also played a role in forging new Time Rings and that he failed Zamasu (because he couldn't dissuade him from that dark path). He was his teacher and mentor, and yet he couldn't save him from himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUZbMKV7YkU

This is like Obi Wan saying to Anakin that he failed him. If you're someone's teacher, you're first of all responsible for their conduct. And if they behave badly, the fault is partially yours. It's your job as the teacher to teach them the right conduct.

Gowasu can absolutely be blamed for what happens and indeed he blames himself. Teachers aren't there for decoration, they have a responsibility and duty towards their student, and if they can't uphold those duties, then they can and will indeed be blamed accordingly.

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