Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

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Scientist Fu
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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Scientist Fu » Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:42 am

He blames himself because he is humble and cares about his student because he does not want his student to become bad, he even asked Black to apologize to Zeno so they could start a new life together, but Black persisted in doing his plan when he had the chance to change it and rejected Gowasu's offer, stubborn and evil as he is. You can't say that Gowasu's is the one to blame, he has been pretty open with his student, kind, patient, honest, he explained Zamasu everything he had to know, answered his questions and showed understanding. Zamasu is just selfish and stubborn, no matter what Gowasu would teach him he would do his stuff one day or another. You think that it's Gowasu's fault that Zamasu became what he is? that's just being blind.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:33 am

Scientist Fu wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:42 am You can't say that Gowasu's is the one to blame
Actually I'm not the one who did, Gowasu is 8)

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Scientist Fu » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:43 am

Taking the blame for someone that you care about is pretty positive, it shows that Gowasu is indeed a good being. Zamasu had the choice between :
-listen to his master and accept his place
-betray his master and follow his own path

he deliberately picked the wrong path, he knew it was wrong and he still did it. Someone who is an adult and who intentionally does something bad is responsible for it. Nobody forced Zamasu to act in such a way, those who defend his behavior and blame Gowasu for Zamasu's actions are not being honest with themselves.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:15 am

What is it with users on this forum and not pinging you so you get the alerts? Anyway
Scientist Fu wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:43 am Taking the blame for someone that you care about is pretty positive, it shows that Gowasu is indeed a good being. Zamasu had the choice between :
-listen to his master and accept his place
-betray his master and follow his own path

he deliberately picked the wrong path, he knew it was wrong and he still did it. Someone who is an adult and who intentionally does something bad is responsible for it. Nobody forced Zamasu to act in such a way, those who defend his behavior and blame Gowasu for Zamasu's actions are not being honest with themselves.
Gowasu is 100% guilty of showing Zamasu a race of barbarians that even assaulted the two Kais (proving Zamasu's point about mortals daring to attack the Gods) instead of one of the many highly-advanced species. His "answers" are also non-answers. He never tells him that he is wrong about mortals, he just tells him that it's not his job to destroy mortals.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Scientist Fu » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:36 am

Yes, Gowasu feels guilty which proves that he cares so much for his student that he takes the blame for his actions, but someone who feels guilty for something does not necessarily mean that he is at fault. Someone innocent can also feel guilty. A person who cares for someone else would always take the blame for the one he loves, even though it's not his fault that Zamasu became the way he is. Like I said above, even if Gowasu showed his student only the good side of mortals Zamasu's doubts would never completely disappear it would just postpone them for another time until he meets an evil being. Gowasu may have caused the event to happen sooner, but something else or someone else could also cause it to happen. If it's not today, it would be another day. If it's not Gowasu, it would be someone else. Nothing would change with Zamasu's doubts, things would happen later on anyway. Zamasu was going to reveal his true intentions at some point.
Last edited by Scientist Fu on Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Skar » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:41 am

Scientist Fu wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:43 am Taking the blame for someone that you care about is pretty positive, it shows that Gowasu is indeed a good being. Zamasu had the choice between :
-listen to his master and accept his place
-betray his master and follow his own path

he deliberately picked the wrong path, he knew it was wrong and he still did it. Someone who is an adult and who intentionally does something bad is responsible for it. Nobody forced Zamasu to act in such a way, those who defend his behavior and blame Gowasu for Zamasu's actions are not being honest with themselves.
That's the way I see it. Probably every serial killer has someone good in their lives who blames themselves for how those people turned out. It doesn't mean they're responsible since those people chose that path. All Kaioshin likely encountered barbaric and primitive races but Zamasu was the only one who assumed this sample represented all mortals and that mass genocide was necessary. In real life, people like that are considered pretty delusional which I think is how the story is treating him.

Morally grey characters sometimes develop followers, cult, religion, etc and the good guys might be conflicted but Zamasu only convinced an alternate version of himself that he was right while everyone else agreed he needed to be stopped especially before Zeno became aware.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Scientist Fu » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:58 am

I couldn't agree more with you, you explained my thoughts so well. That's the way I see it too.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:15 am What is it with users on this forum and not pinging you so you get the alerts? Anyway
Ops, sorry if that bothered you, but I usually avoid pinging someone when my reply will be just below their post. But I will ping you if that helps you.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:53 pm

My final thoughts on the subject is that People here are being too lenient towards Gowasu and simultaneously ignoring clear Story messages.

On top of Gowasu feeling responsible and guilty for what happened with Zamasu, Beerus also reprimands him, telling him to choose his Apprentice more carefully next time. If Gowasu could not set Zamasu on the path of good, he should have at least realized that Zamasu, despite his incredible power as a prodigy, did not have the patience/benevolence for the role.

People here are being too lenient towards Gowasu just because he's an old gentle man, ignoring all the mistakes he made. He was a horrible judge of character and he barely taught Zamasu anything. His solution is "If mortals are evil, let the Destroyers handle them, it's not our place", which is a non-solution. Passiveness/Inaction is never a solution.

What people here also ignore is that, even if Zamasu was doomed to take a dark path from the start [ignoring the fact that Future Zamasu's story proves that he wouldn't have had the will to act if he never met Goku], that doesn't absolve Gowasu of his mistake in choosing Zamasu as apprentice.

Either Zamasu was a psycho from the start, doomed to go evil, and thus Gowasu should have realized from the start that such a psycho was not fit to lead. Or Zamasu was not a psycho from the start, he could have taken the good path, and Gowasu failed in putting him on the good path.

Either way, Gowasu is not innocent. He made some serious mistakes as a teacher.

Finally, the idea that Zamasu is a psycho from the start and was doomed to go evil regardless of what happened is also disproven by the existence of the Makaioshin. If Zamasu was evil from the start, he would have been exiled to the dark realm like the Makaioshin (evil Supreme Kais). Zamasu would've NEVER become a North Kai, become an apprentice Supreme Kai, even been allowed to live as a Kai (without exile), if he was really doomed to go evil.

OP is 100% right. Gowasu should have woken up and realized that Zamasu's sense of justice was way too strong to be satisfied by a non-answer. He was completely oblivious and senile to everything happening around him.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Scientist Fu » Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:46 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:53 pm My final thoughts on the subject is that People here are being too lenient towards Gowasu and simultaneously ignoring clear Story messages. [...]
We are not being too lenient towards Gowasu. I'm just saying that Gowasu is not responsible for Zamasu's actions because Zamasu is well-aware of what he is doing. Gowasu might not have been careful enough when he picked Zamasu as his apprentice, but that still does not justify Zamasu's actions, that guy is supposed to be good at birth so it's pretty normal that Gowasu trusted him and choose him as his apprentice. Gowasu's explanation is pretty clear, Kaio Shins are not supposed to interfer, just like the angels, end of story. He explained the role of the Kaio Shins, he can not change their role and teach Zamasu a new role. You either accept it or you don't and if you don't you are doing the wrong thing since all the Gods in U7 tried to stop him, which proves that Zamasu was indeed in the wrong. +Zamasu never really showed his true face to his master, he asked questions, then he killed a babarian and when his master asked him why he did that he didn't even respond and later on he played the role of the good guy who understood and accepted why things were as they were and that he got his lesson, which is why Gowasu continued believing in him so Zamasu took advantage of his trust and tried to kill him.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:16 pm

Scientist Fu wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:46 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:53 pm My final thoughts on the subject is that People here are being too lenient towards Gowasu and simultaneously ignoring clear Story messages. [...]
We are not being too lenient towards Gowasu. I'm just saying that Gowasu is not responsible for Zamasu's actions because Zamasu is well-aware of what he is doing. Gowasu might not have been careful enough when he picked Zamasu as his apprentice, but that still does not justify Zamasu's actions, that guy is supposed to be good at birth so it's pretty normal that Gowasu trusted him and choose him as his apprentice. Gowasu's explanation is pretty clear, Kaio Shins are not supposed to interfer, just like the angels, end of story. He explained the role of the Kaio Shins, he can not change their role and teach Zamasu a new role. You either accept it or you don't and if you don't you are doing the wrong thing since all the Gods in U7 tried to stop him, which proves that Zamasu was indeed in the wrong. +Zamasu never really showed his true face to his master, he just asked questions and then he played the role of the good guy who understood and accepted why things were as they were and that he got his lesson, which is why Gowasu continued believing in him so Zamasu took advantage of his trust and tried to kill him.
You are being too lenient in the moment that you say that Gowasu did all he could in that situation.

No one said Zamasu did nothing wrong or that it's all Gowasu's fault. What Me and the Story (Gowasu/Beerus) said is that the blame can partially be attributed to Gowasu, for aforementioned reasons (showing Planet Babari instead of a nice planet, telling Zamasu to just deal with it and follow the Law, etc. etc. etc.).

The bottom line here is that Gowasu knew and acknowledged that Zamasu had a very strong sense of justice. So he should have realized that simply telling him "No, it's not our job to kill them, leave that to other people" wasn't going to convince him ever.

If someone has a very strong sense of justice and is exceptionally righteous, you're not going to convince them that inaction, simply doing nothing, is the solution.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Scientist Fu » Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:33 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:16 pm You are being too lenient in the moment that you say that Gowasu did all he could in that situation.

No one said Zamasu did nothing wrong or that it's all Gowasu's fault. What Me and the Story (Gowasu/Beerus) said is that the blame can partially be attributed to Gowasu, for aforementioned reasons (showing Planet Babari instead of a nice planet, telling Zamasu to just deal with it and follow the Law, etc. etc. etc.).

The bottom line here is that Gowasu knew and acknowledged that Zamasu had a very strong sense of justice. So he should have realized that simply telling him "No, it's not our job to kill them, leave that to other people" wasn't going to convince him ever.

If someone has a very strong sense of justice and is exceptionally righteous, you're not going to convince them that inaction, simply doing nothing, is the solution.
Nobody denied that? what I'm saying is that Gowasu did not turn Zamasu into a bad guy. He was not careful enough, that's for sure.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:37 pm

Scientist Fu wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:33 pm Nobody denied that? what I'm saying is that Gowasu did not turn Zamasu into a bad guy. He was not careful enough, that's for sure.
I didn't say Gowasu turned Zamasu into a bad guy. Of course Gowasu didn't force Zamasu to do anything, he was gullible and naive and got completely manipulated by Zamasu. He had no amount of control or influence ove rhim.

And this was precisely his mistake. He was gullible and naive. A more cunning teacher would have realized that Zamasu would be hard to convince the moment he suggested to wipe out the Babarians. He should have taken more drastic measures and clearly lectures while drinking tea were not going to be enough.

The take-away here is that "Gowasu making mistakes" and "Zamasu being responsible" are not mutually exclusive. Zamasu is responsible of all the crimes he committed and paid for it, but at the same time Gowasu is also responsible for being gullible. For "underestimating" him and the lengths he'd go to.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by capsulecorp » Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:51 pm

Whether or not Gowasu is "blameless" is beside the point. Despite being a deity he's fallible, this is a pretty consistent theme across all of Dragon Ball. The gods are not perfect. Whis is in Ultra Instinct at all times, and even he stepped in poop.

The key fact about Zamasu's behavior is that it was so absurdly cruel and illogical that Gowasu shouldn't have even been expected to predict it. Maybe Gowasu should have disciplined him or punished him for his strange hateful rants, but its not fair to say he should have expected Zamasu to attempt genocide and tamper with reality to such a degree that Zeno would have to get involved.

In a way, this is like the "would you kill baby Hitler" question. Zamasu turned out to be a lot like Hitler in many ways, but would it have been right for Gowasu to destroy him before he started down his dark, sad path?

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by Skar » Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:54 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:53 pmOP is 100% right. Gowasu should have woken up and realized that Zamasu's sense of justice was way too strong to be satisfied by a non-answer. He was completely oblivious and senile to everything happening around him.
There are several examples in fiction of a student going against their master's teachings. The master is usually only guilty of being one of the few people or only person in this case to have any faith in their student. I'm pretty sure that's what Beerus meant. Zamasu was too mentally unstable to be a Kaioshin so Gowasu should've noticed and never made him his apprentice in the first place.

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Re: Gowasu really underestimated him honestly...

Post by capsulecorp » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:05 pm

Skar wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:54 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:53 pmOP is 100% right. Gowasu should have woken up and realized that Zamasu's sense of justice was way too strong to be satisfied by a non-answer. He was completely oblivious and senile to everything happening around him.
There are several examples in fiction of a student going against their master's teachings. The master is usually only guilty of being one of the few people or only person in this case to have any faith in their student. I'm pretty sure that's what Beerus meant. Zamasu was too mentally unstable to be a Kaioshin so Gowasu should've noticed and never made him his apprentice in the first place.
It's possible that Zamasu was more stable and rational before the pressures of being a Kai got to him.

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