Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

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Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:11 pm

Talking about the manga (because it's the ongoing series), since the Tournament of Power the narrative seems to lean heavily towards focusing on different paths for Goku and Vegeta. This is the arc where Vegeta diverges from Goku in terms of Saiyan transformations (which they share throughout most of the series). In the Moro arc, this remains a theme when Goku and Vegeta do totally opposite trainings focusing on different techniques (in which it is possible to argue that the Spirit Fission that Vegeta learns is the opposite of one of Goku's main techniques, the Genkidama) , and the current arc presents Vegeta's opposite to Ultra Instinct.

I don't know about most people, but it just seems like a more interesting direction to me when the characters have different directions because instead of the pattern of ''x character gets a form and the other trains to try to reach it too), it is possible to present different powersets / dynamics and somehow keep something fresh in the narrative. For most of the original series, we saw the Saiyans just trying to catch up with each other in terms of transformations and for the most part, those forms were the same (except for Gohan who at the end of the Boo arc got a power up more in line with his character, his hidden potential tha wasn't necessarily linked to the Saiyan forms, but which did not get a proper payoff and further development). The scenario remained the same for most of DBS as well with the Godly forms.

Do you think characters taking different routes should have been something more prominent in the series earlier? It's understandable that this was done now to change the old DB dynamic a bit, but I feel like we could have seen more new things if they focused in that direction earlier.

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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:57 pm

I think it's fine it's happening now. They followed the same path for most of their time together, and after the detour it took them 3 arcs until reaching their destination. I remember people complaining it wasn't going anywhere for Geets at least, but his journey wasn't rushed and seems natural to me.

I don't think this could've been done in Z, for example, even though Goku and Geets did take different paths in the android arc.

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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by Skar » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:23 pm

I think it would've been difficult to have Goku and Vegeta go different earlier in the series. They're both Saiyans and training together so it made sense they would end up with the same transformations. UI isn't a Saiyan exclusive technique (well the transformation might be since I don't know if other races would have their hair turn white) so that made it possible there could be other God techniques that Saiyans could achieve after Blue.

I'm not sure if they could be as powerful as UI since that might be the last transformation Toriyama came up with but Vegeta's Ultra Ego seems to be stronger than Omen at least. I'm curious what Toriyama intended to happen to Vegeta after the ToP.

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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:11 pm

Eh, I would have preferred that Vegeta also learn Ultra Instinct. I'm more a fan of the character as he was written in GT and Kami to Kami. I want a more mature, less edgy Vegeta.
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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:07 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:11 pm Eh, I would have preferred that Vegeta also learn Ultra Instinct. I'm more a fan of the character as he was written in GT and Kami to Kami. I want a more mature, less edgy Vegeta.
I only found Super manga Vegeta being edgy at times. In the anime, he was pretty chill 90% of the time. Like he spent most of the pre-TOP taking care of Bra and wanting to beat up Black for what he did to Trunks. Not caring Black impaled him and called him food. And GT Vegeta did get a jealous girl moment about wanting Super Saiyan 4.

That and I don’t mind Vegeta not getting UI because it really isn’t who he is even when he was written more mature. Granted, don’t care where Toyo took it.
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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:10 am

HeroR wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:07 am
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:11 pm Eh, I would have preferred that Vegeta also learn Ultra Instinct. I'm more a fan of the character as he was written in GT and Kami to Kami. I want a more mature, less edgy Vegeta.
I only found Super manga Vegeta being edgy at times. In the anime, he was pretty chill 90% of the time. Like he spent most of the pre-TOP taking care of Bra and wanting to beat up Black for what he did to Trunks. Not caring Black impaled him and called him food. And GT Vegeta did get a jealous girl moment about wanting Super Saiyan 4.

That and I don’t mind Vegeta not getting UI because it really isn’t who he is even when he was written more mature. Granted, don’t care where Toyo took it.
I didn't really like how Vegeta acted so aggressive during the Tournament of Power. I feel like at this point he should have a calmer demeanor when he is not engaged in gag scenes, like in the 2013 film.
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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:42 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:10 am
HeroR wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:07 am
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:11 pm Eh, I would have preferred that Vegeta also learn Ultra Instinct. I'm more a fan of the character as he was written in GT and Kami to Kami. I want a more mature, less edgy Vegeta.
I only found Super manga Vegeta being edgy at times. In the anime, he was pretty chill 90% of the time. Like he spent most of the pre-TOP taking care of Bra and wanting to beat up Black for what he did to Trunks. Not caring Black impaled him and called him food. And GT Vegeta did get a jealous girl moment about wanting Super Saiyan 4.

That and I don’t mind Vegeta not getting UI because it really isn’t who he is even when he was written more mature. Granted, don’t care where Toyo took it.
I didn't really like how Vegeta acted so aggressive during the Tournament of Power. I feel like at this point he should have a calmer demeanor when he is not engaged in gag scenes, like in the 2013 film.
Personally like how he was written more in the retelling than the movie.

But besides that, Vegeta was very much a Tsundere in the TOP. Like how he tried to act like he didn't care about Roshi being torture by Frost and just wanted to beat him up, which Roshi doesn't buy. Or how he wouldn't donate to the Spirit Bomb, but kept Rib from blindsiding Goku. To him saying how he wanted to surpassed Goku, but what he really wanted was the Super Dragon Balls to revived U6 once they won and even encouraged Goku after he got rung out. Granted, TOP Vegeta was a step back for me from Future Trunks Saga Vegeta who is honestly my favorite version of good Vegeta.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:50 am

HeroR wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:42 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:10 am
HeroR wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:07 am

I only found Super manga Vegeta being edgy at times. In the anime, he was pretty chill 90% of the time. Like he spent most of the pre-TOP taking care of Bra and wanting to beat up Black for what he did to Trunks. Not caring Black impaled him and called him food. And GT Vegeta did get a jealous girl moment about wanting Super Saiyan 4.

That and I don’t mind Vegeta not getting UI because it really isn’t who he is even when he was written more mature. Granted, don’t care where Toyo took it.
I didn't really like how Vegeta acted so aggressive during the Tournament of Power. I feel like at this point he should have a calmer demeanor when he is not engaged in gag scenes, like in the 2013 film.
Personally like how he was written more in the retelling than the movie.

But besides that, Vegeta was very much a Tsundere in the TOP. Like how he tried to act like he didn't care about Roshi being torture by Frost and just wanted to beat him up, which Roshi doesn't buy. Or how he wouldn't donate to the Spirit Bomb, but kept Rib from blindsiding Goku. To him saying how he wanted to surpassed Goku, but what he really wanted was the Super Dragon Balls to revived U6 once they won and even encouraged Goku after he got rung out. Granted, TOP Vegeta was a step back for me from Future Trunks Saga Vegeta who is honestly my favorite version of good Vegeta.
Yeah, it's just boring not seeing him honest and confident at this point. The best Vegeta is honestly Saiyan and early Namek Vegeta as well as the calmer, less aggressive moments from GT.
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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:57 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:50 am
Yeah, it's just boring not seeing him honest and confident at this point. The best Vegeta is honestly Saiyan and early Namek Vegeta as well as the calmer, less aggressive moments from GT.
I would say he was honest and confident though most of Super. Even in the TOP, he was confident to a fault that he would win and it was mostly because he wanted to save U6. He didn't start to break down until he realized he couldn't win against Jiren and 17 blew himself up. Maybe not so much in the manga where he had personal issues with Black and wanted to fight him because he had Goku's face or him getting SSBE because he got super salty seeing Omen.

I honestly didn't like Saiyan Saga Vegeta. He was just a typical evil Saiyan like Nappa and Raditz. He was just more cocky and had the power to back it up better. So, I found him bland and a step down from the Piccolos. Namek Saga Vegeta was cool.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by Cipher » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:57 am

I guess I feel like the pacing of it feels pretty right. We first find out Vegeta is keeping pacing with Goku in “F,” where it’s a surprise, and then we have two storylines in which they’re one-upping each other of development of the same basic techniques/transformation before we have the start of the split at the ToP (where it also runs alongside Gohan’s proclamation that he’ll find his own way, in the manga).

The Moro arc doesn’t directly move Vegeta forward along that path, but it does help him get over some remaining character hurdles, and forces him into learning some supportive techniques he ordinarily would have balked at, for the greater good, before finding the right path for his growth the following storyline.

Maybe the argument could be made that the kind of split we have now could have occurred in the Moro arc, but I like what it does with Vegeta all the same.

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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by Trouser » Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:44 am

No, not really. Caveman form would be ideal for Saiyan/Namek arc Vegeta, when he was plain asshole and jerk who only thinks about himself. This Vegeta had character development and making him "all ego" doesn't fit him, in my opinion. I'd rather the "split" never happened. I'd preffer he stick with Ultra Instinct and there is nothing wrong with obtaining it later, after Goku. He's not the MC after all.
And if the "different paths" would be inevitable, it would be better to do it with techniques and/or fighting style, not through never ending transformations. But I guess they don't know how to do it or just don't care, so they are choosing the easiest way possible.
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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by BWri » Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:14 pm

Now that we're here its fine, but for me it was excruciatingly slow for both anime and manga. Vegeta was always a sort of backup Goku for me and none of his skills felt any more valuable or unique until he got Spirit Fission. Because of that, all his fights just felt like filler to me because he was always doing less interesting versions of what Goku was doing or doing the exact same thing. It just felt very redundant IMO.

Goku on the other hand, always has fights that intrigue me in one way of another, even when I'm not particularly into his character or interactions with the antagonist. He just has a more interesting fighting style and powerset. Vegeta is usually the opposite. I like his interactions, but his powerset and fighting style are quite bland.

Spirit Fission and Ego are great for him.
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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by Alruneia » Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:12 pm

I think it's fine as is. Whis did talk about how Goku was too relaxed and open while Vegeta was too tense way back (in RF, I think), so maybe it should've been clear that Ultra Instinct wasn't going to be Vegeta's thing a bit sooner, but the progression is more or less fine. I do wish that the form Vegeta was going to be moved towards would be a kind of Ultra Awareness to match that "tenseness" much like how Ultra Instinct matches Goku's "relaxedness", though, but the contrast between Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct is also more or less fine as is. Ultra Ego is still ugly though, I hope it changes appearance
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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:24 pm

BWri wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:14 pm Now that we're here its fine, but for me it was excruciatingly slow for both anime and manga. Vegeta was always a sort of backup Goku for me and none of his skills felt any more valuable or unique until he got Spirit Fission. Because of that, all his fights just felt like filler to me because he was always doing less interesting versions of what Goku was doing or doing the exact same thing. It just felt very redundant IMO.

Goku on the other hand, always has fights that intrigue me in one way of another, even when I'm not particularly into his character or interactions with the antagonist. He just has a more interesting fighting style and powerset. Vegeta is usually the opposite. I like his interactions, but his powerset and fighting style are quite bland.

Spirit Fission and Ego are great for him.
I understand the feeling, and I also believe that the introduction of SSBE in the anime was particularly late for example (because in this continuity Goku already had a variation of SSB that gave him the edge, and Vegeta only got something similar 2 arcs later, in the manga there was the whole Completed SSB thing that eventually got shared by the two and only after that they kind of split with SSB KK and SSBE). Although I thought the God-Blue switch idea was pretty cool (in the way Vegeta used it), even though it turned out not to be as effective as CSSB, it was Vegeta's own way of solving SSB problems while Goku used other method, so it was kind of different at least.

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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by BWri » Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:55 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:24 pm I understand the feeling, and I also believe that the introduction of SSBE in the anime was particularly late for example (because in this continuity Goku already had a variation of SSB that gave him the edge, and Vegeta only got something similar 2 arcs later, in the manga there was the whole Completed SSB thing that eventually got shared by the two and only after that they kind of split with SSB KK and SSBE). Although I thought the God-Blue switch idea was pretty cool (in the way Vegeta used it), even though it turned out not to be as effective as CSSB, it was Vegeta's own way of solving SSB problems while Goku used other method, so it was kind of different at least.
I thought about the god switching. I wish he managed to accomplish more with it. It's a neat idea, but it just comes across as a neat trick and is immediately useless once Goku unveils CSSB. And it's no fault of Toyotaro's manga, but I saw the idea executed years prior by Trunks in Dragon Ball Multiverse so it didn't feel all that original or unique to me, even though it is in the confines of DBS. I think Vegeta uses it better, but because it goes nowhere and he acquiesces that Goku's way (CSSB) is more effective, it doesn't leave much of an impression.

It would have been interesting to see what else he could do with it, but CSSB was just too good.
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Re: Do you think the ''different paths'' route should have been introduced sooner?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:19 pm

the point in time is good enough, the issue is with the timing of UI mastering.

Goku should have "mastered" Omen back during Moro Saga, and now trying to apply it to regular forms, with Vegeta learning the basics of UE\GoD Mode

And at least a reference to Jiren and Belmod.

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