The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:22 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:28 pm Anyone remember when TOEI wanted to do a Dragonball movie and gave Toriyama the script to check; but Toriyama ended up rewriting the entire plot since he [as the author] couldn't "call TOEI's world Dragonball?" Thus enters Dragonball Battle of Gods movie!

That's canon Dragonball.
So canon Dragon Ball is anything that Toriyama only outlines but didn't write himself (that's what BoG was)?
Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:49 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:28 pm It honestly, LEGITIMATELY depends on your definition of canon.

If one decided to go by what general marketing and media makes use of? Probably the anime.

If you don't care? Probably both are equally canon.

Buuuuuut, and this is where one has to be careful with their wording to avoid making people mad, there are stricter definitions of "canonical" that one could tend toward the manga being canon to the original manga, and the anime not.
  1. For one, the anime of Dragon Ball Super makes use of some minor plot points that only exist in the anime for Z, such as Bulma having been possessed by Ginyu. We know in the anime for DBS Goku trained with Gregory, because he exists on King Kai's world in that continuity.
  2. Secondly, Toriyama has arguably more "direct" ties to with how the story is portrayed in the manga, editing dialogue and occasionally drawing entire pages. He's also confirmed to have co-written the current arc with Toyotaro.
  3. Thirdly, there have been multiple instances where the anime deviated heavily from what we know was originally written or noted down by Toriyama.
    • Examples of this include Super Saiyan Goku Black, the final fight with Fused Zamasu being between Trunks and Fused Zamasu as opposed to Goku and Fused Zamasu, as well as the Potara's time limit having been originally been intended for Fused Zamasu, who it does not apply to in the anime, but does in the manga.
  4. Minor references to geographical locations (Mount Paozu) or visual references aside (Vegeta's casual wear being his GT outfit), there hasn't been any actual contradictions to the manga of Dragon Ball or references to filler events that didn't happen prior on the page.
  5. Lastly, you have Shueisha itself having referred to the manga for DBS several times as the canonical sequel (or whatever Japanese equivalent has been made note of by our dear founder) of the original manga.
It will really come down to your personal definition of what you consider more canonical. If original author-involvement carries weight though? I'd probably lean closer to the manga for the various reasons listed above.

EDIT: Nevermind the above, TobyS basically pointed it out.

I also accept BWri's answer, that there's a manga continuity and an anime continuity, with some weird stuff in-between but for the most part kept apart as well.
The time limit shouldn't be applied to Fused Zamasu since Future Zamasu must be a Kaioshin since he used the time ring. Toyotaro goofed that one repeatedly while Toei did it right.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:05 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:49 pm The time limit shouldn't be applied to Fused Zamasu since Future Zamasu must be a Kaioshin since he used the time ring. Toyotaro goofed that one repeatedly while Toei did it right.
You have to keep in mind it's a Toriyama-original plot point though.

And the explanation is simple-enough, using the Potara alone, while granting access to Time Ring usage, doesn't make one a proper a Supreme Kai.

If it did, then Potara wouldn't have a time limit by default and the very plot point of a time limit wouldn't make sense, since anyone who wears them would be considered a Supreme Kai. And we know that effect is not dependent on Kai biology, because Goku Black has the body of a Saiyan and is able to use the time ring.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:23 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:05 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:49 pm The time limit shouldn't be applied to Fused Zamasu since Future Zamasu must be a Kaioshin since he used the time ring. Toyotaro goofed that one repeatedly while Toei did it right.
You have to keep in mind it's a Toriyama-original plot point though.

And the explanation is simple-enough, using the Potara alone, while granting access to Time Ring usage, doesn't make one a proper a Supreme Kai.

If it did, then Potara wouldn't have a time limit by default and the very plot point of a time limit wouldn't make sense, since anyone who wears them would be considered a Supreme Kai. And we know that effect is not dependent on Kai biology, because Goku Black has the body of a Saiyan and is able to use the time ring.
Even if it comes from Toriyama it's still an error.

It's very clearly said that no one except a Kaioshin can use the time ring, it doesn't matter if you have the Potara, you must have the Kaioshin rank.

Shin even says Zamasu wouldn't be able to use the time ring because he isn't a Kaioshin yet in chapter 18.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:04 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:23 pm Even if it comes from Toriyama it's still an error.

It's very clearly said that no one except a Kaioshin can use the time ring, it doesn't matter if you have the Potara, you must have the Kaioshin rank.

Shin even says Zamasu wouldn't be able to use the time ring because he isn't a Kaioshin yet in chapter 18.
You didn't address the other part though. Because there's a paradox if anyone wearing the Potara IS a Supreme Kai.
If it did, then Potara wouldn't have a time limit by default and the very plot point of a time limit wouldn't make sense, since anyone who wears them would be considered a Supreme Kai. And we know that effect is not dependent on Kai biology, because Goku Black has the body of a Saiyan and is able to use the time ring.
Ironically, because of this the manga portrayal ends up making more sense. The Potara doesn't actually make someone a Supreme Kai. It just grants someone the power of one.

Image

Think of it like this. In the manga, Vegito could use the time ring, because he's wearing Potara and is granted that power. Regardless, him and Zamasu have a limited fusion, because neither of them are truly Supreme Kai despite wielding the power of one.

In the anime, if wearing the Potara alone designates someone a Supreme Kai, there's no reason Vegito shouldn't have a permanent fusion unless that was a quirk of Kai biology, which we know is not the case because Black can use the time ring.

EDIT: To elaborate even further, yes the chapter has Shin questioning the fact that Zamasu could travel through time despite not being a Supreme Kai, but in the panels immediately after you have Whis pointing out the earring. The earring doesn't equate to actually being a Supreme Kai, it's just the artifact required.

Image

You might not find it the best writing, but it's not contradictory within the confines of the story itself.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:17 am

Dragon Wukong wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:04 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:23 pm Even if it comes from Toriyama it's still an error.

It's very clearly said that no one except a Kaioshin can use the time ring, it doesn't matter if you have the Potara, you must have the Kaioshin rank.

Shin even says Zamasu wouldn't be able to use the time ring because he isn't a Kaioshin yet in chapter 18.
You didn't address the other part though. Because there's a paradox if anyone wearing the Potara IS a Supreme Kai.
If it did, then Potara wouldn't have a time limit by default and the very plot point of a time limit wouldn't make sense, since anyone who wears them would be considered a Supreme Kai. And we know that effect is not dependent on Kai biology, because Goku Black has the body of a Saiyan and is able to use the time ring.
Ironically, because of this the manga portrayal ends up making more sense. The Potara doesn't actually make someone a Supreme Kai. It just grants someone the power of one.

Image

Think of it like this. In the manga, Vegito could use the time ring, because he's wearing Potara and is granted that power. Regardless, him and Zamasu have a limited fusion, because neither of them are truly Supreme Kai despite wielding the power of one.

In the anime, if wearing the Potara alone designates someone a Supreme Kai, there's no reason Vegito shouldn't have a permanent fusion unless that was a quirk of Kai biology, which we know is not the case because Black can use the time ring.

EDIT: To elaborate even further, yes the chapter has Shin questioning the fact that Zamasu could travel through time despite not being a Supreme Kai, but in the panels immediately after you have Whis pointing out the earring. The earring doesn't equate to actually being a Supreme Kai, it's just the artifact required.

Image

You might not find it the best writing, but it's not contradictory within the confines of the story itself.
Black does have Supereme Ksi biology in the anime. That's why he goes Rose and his ki feels like Zamasu's.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:47 am

Why exactly are we acting like Toriyama can't make errors when the original manga has several major plot holes (like the Cell regeneration plot hole or the Potara plot hole which Super then fixed)?

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:32 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:47 am Why exactly are we acting like Toriyama can't make errors when the original manga has several major plot holes (like the Cell regeneration plot hole or the Potara plot hole which Super then fixed)?
No one is saying that, but if you can explain something away is it really an error? Because that's the situation being described above.

Gowasu said it himself, it's not that the Potara makes someone a Supreme Kai, it just temporarily gives them the power of one.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:40 am

Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:32 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:47 am Why exactly are we acting like Toriyama can't make errors when the original manga has several major plot holes (like the Cell regeneration plot hole or the Potara plot hole which Super then fixed)?
No one is saying that, but if you can explain something away is it really an error? Because that's the situation being described above.

Gowasu said it himself, it's not that the Potara makes someone a Supreme Kai, it just temporarily gives them the power of one.
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the idea that only Toriyama knows how to write "real Dragon Ball"; that's just false. Toriyama himself seems to think so, since he liked the idea of Broly (character created by Toei) so much that he made his own movie about it :think:

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:00 am

miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:17 am Black does have Supereme Ksi biology in the anime. That's why he goes Rose and his ki feels like Zamasu's.
Why Black goes Rose in the anime is never explained in that continuity. The only explanation provided is the manga's which suggests it's just the color SSGSS takes when the user is already a proper deity.

And Black's ki feels like Zamasu because ki is a property of the spirit, not the body. It's not intrinsically tied to him being a Kai.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Miracles » Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:57 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:22 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:28 pm Anyone remember when TOEI wanted to do a Dragonball movie and gave Toriyama the script to check; but Toriyama ended up rewriting the entire plot since he [as the author] couldn't "call TOEI's world Dragonball?" Thus enters Dragonball Battle of Gods movie!

That's canon Dragonball.
So canon Dragon Ball is anything that Toriyama only outlines but didn't write himself (that's what BoG was)?
Toriyama wrote BoG. In fact, the very reason why he could outright change TOEI's entire script shows he is the authority [Canon] over the story Dragonball.

Look how Toriyama deemed The live action Dragonball movie [Hollywood] as a world he couldn't "call Dragonball." Since they had "too little grasp" on his Dragonball and it didn't "live up to his expectations."

What Toriyama writes and crowns is canon Dragonball.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:08 pm

If that's true then why so many people don't consider the movies? The movies were written by Toriyama. Conversely, people seem to consider more the retellings, and they weren't written by Toriyama.

Shouldn't we disregard all of Dragon Ball Super in favor of Toriyama's outlines, then? Who knows what appears in the anime and the manga came from Toriyama. Toei and Toyotaro filling the gaps shouldn't be considered if just what Toriyama does is what should be considered.

Shouldn't we consider Dragon Ball Online? Sure, we don't have confirmation that he actually wrote the whole thing, but he was involved in its production for five years and he himself said it is a sequel to the manga.

If the supposed canon is just what the author does, why do these questions keep popping up? And why no one answer them?
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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:17 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:57 pm Toriyama wrote BoG. In fact, the very reason why he could outright change TOEI's entire script shows he is the authority [Canon] over the story Dragonball.

Look how Toriyama deemed The live action Dragonball movie [Hollywood] as a world he couldn't "call Dragonball." Since they had "too little grasp" on his Dragonball and it didn't "live up to his expectations."

What Toriyama writes and crowns is canon Dragonball.
Yet the final film has Yusuke Watanabe credited for script writing, not Toriyama.
Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:38 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:08 pm If that's true then why so many people don't consider the movies? The movies were written by Toriyama. Conversely, people seem to consider more the retellings, and they weren't written by Toriyama.

Shouldn't we disregard all of Dragon Ball Super in favor of Toriyama's outlines, then? Who knows what appears in the anime and the manga came from Toriyama. Toei and Toyotaro filling the gaps shouldn't be considered if just what Toriyama does is what should be considered.

Shouldn't we consider Dragon Ball Online? Sure, we don't have confirmation that he actually wrote the whole thing, but he was involved in its production for five years and he himself said it is a sequel to the manga.

If the supposed canon is just what the author does, why do these questions keep popping up? And why no one answer them?
Keep in mind the retellings of BoG to have the party on a boat instead was a plot point added by Toriyama and within both adaptations, hence why that's considered canonival.

Besides that, Resurrection F was only retold in the anime and includes references to non-canonical filler, so I dont consider the retelling canon.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:45 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:38 pmKeep in mind the retellings of BoG to have the party on a boat instead was a plot point added by Toriyama and within both adaptations, hence why that's considered canonival.
Wait, the retelling "is canonical" just because the party takes place in a different location?

Then what about the Namekuseijin book? Which we would later learn it's something from Toriyama but only one medium/continuity brought that up. What about Tarble mention? Which neither retellings addressed it. And why did Vegeta retain his TV Special appearance in the manga?
Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:38 pmBesides that, Resurrection F was only retold in the anime and includes references to non-canonical filler, so I dont consider the retelling canon.
Universe 6 saga brings back the Kaio-Ken and combines it with a Super Saiyan form. Previously seen in a filler too. Shouldn't that saga be disregard too? Or do we know Kaio-Ken exists in Toriyama's outlines?
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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by DSB » Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:20 pm

Cipher wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:17 pm Everyone here is offering sound (some might even say accurate) responses, but I’m going to offer a bold counterpoint, and hopefully you can see where I’m coming from: Only the anime canon, because I like it more.
Fixed that for you and everyone.

Id prefer a product that at least the veterans over at Toei developed under toriyama's direction than some guy who wrote DB AF of all fan fics.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:30 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:08 pm If that's true then why so many people don't consider the movies? The movies were written by Toriyama. Conversely, people seem to consider more the retellings, and they weren't written by Toriyama.

Shouldn't we disregard all of Dragon Ball Super in favor of Toriyama's outlines, then? Who knows what appears in the anime and the manga came from Toriyama. Toei and Toyotaro filling the gaps shouldn't be considered if just what Toriyama does is what should be considered.

Shouldn't we consider Dragon Ball Online? Sure, we don't have confirmation that he actually wrote the whole thing, but he was involved in its production for five years and he himself said it is a sequel to the manga.

If the supposed canon is just what the author does, why do these questions keep popping up? And why no one answer them?
I think people consider the retellings because they "correct" stuff from the movie, at least that's the case with the RoF retelling. For BoG I think they only expanded on the movie, but I'm not completely sure about this, I haven't watched the retellings in years.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by pepd » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:07 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:38 pm Keep in mind the retellings of BoG to have the party on a boat instead was a plot point added by Toriyama and within both adaptations, hence why that's considered canonical.
Do we know that?
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:45 pm
Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:38 pmKeep in mind the retellings of BoG to have the party on a boat instead was a plot point added by Toriyama and within both adaptations, hence why that's considered canonical.
Wait, the retelling "is canonical" just because the party takes place in a different location?

Then what about the Namekuseijin book? Which we would later learn it's something from Toriyama but only one medium/continuity brought that up. What about Tarble mention? Which neither retellings addressed it. And why did Vegeta retain his TV Special appearance in the manga?
Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:38 pmBesides that, Resurrection F was only retold in the anime and includes references to non-canonical filler, so I dont consider the retelling canon.
Universe 6 saga brings back the Kaio-Ken and combines it with a Super Saiyan form. Previously seen in a filler too. Shouldn't that saga be disregard too? Or do we know Kaio-Ken exists in Toriyama's outlines?
There is nothing to suggest the namekuseijin book was in Toriyamas script, it was just mentioned in an interview like many other information that was never mentioned in canon.

Table's mention is also gratuitous and could be a Toei addition, its omission only supports this.

They didn't acknowledged filler SSKK, but since the equivalent manga chapter (that was released 8 months after and would have included SSBKK if it was in the outlines) didn't, yes it should.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:12 pm

Maybe they are both canon but are different timelines, so not everything is the same? I'd expect to see an explanation like that from Toriyana if we get an official guide book. I think GT could also be explained that way.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Miracles » Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:43 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:17 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:57 pm Toriyama wrote BoG. In fact, the very reason why he could outright change TOEI's entire script shows he is the authority [Canon] over the story Dragonball.

Look how Toriyama deemed The live action Dragonball movie [Hollywood] as a world he couldn't "call Dragonball." Since they had "too little grasp" on his Dragonball and it didn't "live up to his expectations."

What Toriyama writes and crowns is canon Dragonball.
Yet the final film has Yusuke Watanabe credited for script writing, not Toriyama.
Naturally, Watanabe came up with the original script for BoG. Still doesn't change the fact that Toriyama himself, nearly rewrote Watanbe's entire script to fit his [Canon/Authority] vision of Dragonball. Even Watanabe confirms this in the link you gave.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:08 pm If that's true then why so many people don't consider the movies? The movies were written by Toriyama. Conversely, people seem to consider more the retellings, and they weren't written by Toriyama.

Shouldn't we disregard all of Dragon Ball Super in favor of Toriyama's outlines, then? Who knows what appears in the anime and the manga came from Toriyama. Toei and Toyotaro filling the gaps shouldn't be considered if just what Toriyama does is what should be considered.

Shouldn't we consider Dragon Ball Online? Sure, we don't have confirmation that he actually wrote the whole thing, but he was involved in its production for five years and he himself said it is a sequel to the manga.

If the supposed canon is just what the author does, why do these questions keep popping up? And why no one answer them?
I guess the problem is people usually don't know what canon is/means. So they are busy saying what they think counts as Dragonball.

Think of it this way; if anyone wants to know what Bulma's favorite ice cream is [or whether she even eats it] they would have to get the answer from her creator. Since he is the authority [canon] of Dragonball, Akira Toriyama.

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