The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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miguelnuva1
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The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:49 pm

I was arguing with someone who said the anime is Toei nonsense and the manga is the real stroy but that isn't correct because Toriyama makes one outline and sends it to Toyo and Toei right?

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:22 pm

Both the Anime and Manga are canon equally Yes. I don't know why online people always have to argue "X is canon" or "Y is non-canon" when really the producers who make these products don't care at all. See Toei crediting Toyotaro in the anime credits and Toyotaro paying homage to Toei by featuring Spirit Sword Trunks on one of the manga's covers.

How some people can claim that the anime is just "nonsense" when literally all (99% anyway) of Super merchandise and videogame material follows the Anime is beyond me...

In the end they are both canon equally by virtue of following the plot outline laid out by Toriyama.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by BWri » Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:29 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:49 pm I was arguing with someone who said the anime is Toei nonsense and the manga is the real stroy but that isn't correct because Toriyama makes one outline and sends it to Toyo and Toei right?
When it comes to Dragon Ball Super, I would say each encompasses a different continuity, now similar to something like the DCAU, DCEU, and the comics or the comparably MCU, Marvel Animation, and Marvel comics.

If you need one true source of canon (if that matters to you) that would be the original Dragon Ball manga by Akira Toriyama (December 3, 1984 – June 5, 1995) and the accompanying works that he himself authored. (**And December 4, 2002, to April 2, 2004 including the alternate ending of the Kanzenban).

If there was something like a modern DBS canon, I'd say the manga fans would have a bigger claim over canonicity than the anime fans, simply because -- as far as I know -- Toriyama-san has more direct involvement with the manga.

The way I see it, each is canon to its own continuity. There's an anime-verse and a manga-verse and some weird stuff in-between.
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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by capsulecorp » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:10 am

Yeah, though the anime was less of an manga "adaptation" than it was back in the DB/DBZ days (though it did adapt some of Battle of Gods!), most people consider the manga and the modern films as "more canon" than the anime, simply because Toriyama is much more closely involved, even going as far as to draw some manga panels himself. There's also the fact that he's expressed displeasure with the quality of the anime.

"Cannonicity" can be a tricky and frustrating subject, but merchandise has nothing to do with it.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Thani » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:38 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:10 am Yeah, though the anime was less of an manga "adaptation" than it was back in the DB/DBZ days (though it did adapt some of Battle of Gods!), most people consider the manga and the modern films as "more canon" than the anime, simply because Toriyama is much more closely involved, even going as far as to draw some manga panels himself. There's also the fact that he's expressed displeasure with the quality of the anime.

"Cannonicity" can be a tricky and frustrating subject, but merchandise has nothing to do with it.
To be fair, his displeasure was expressed during the movie retellings era. Which, let's face it, was the general feeling that every fan had at the time.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:54 pm

Both are canon.

At the beginning the anime was the main product while the manga was just promotional material but that obviously changed with time. Both are equally important.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Cipher » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:17 pm

Everyone here is offering sound (some might even say accurate) responses, but I’m going to offer a bold counterpoint, and hopefully you can see where I’m coming from: Only the manga is canon, because I like it more.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by TobyS » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:32 pm

Both are official products.

Neither are stated to be canon because either Toriyama doesn't care about the concept, or pragmatically everyone involved realised doing so would hurt the non canon one more than help the canon one if such declarations were made.

Is the manga closer to the original creators artistic vision? Yes. Because it's worked on by his chosen successor not randoms at toei. And he has far more back and forth editorial input with that chosen successor than with the anime staff.

Is this what canon means? No.

But is this what people colloquially and contextually are getting at when they say "canon"? Yes.

So is it more canon in any way that matters, given that there will be no official declaration? Yeah pretty much.

Are there more anime fans than manga fans, and do they get mad when you point this out? Yes and yes.

Is the anime preferers pedanticism and dictionary grabbing when you call the manga "more canon" motivated by weird insecurity due to the fact that they know in their heart of hearts they prefer the "less canon" version? Yes.

Is this post a little bit knowingly controversial? Yes.

(EDIT: Also, what Cipher said)
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by capsulecorp » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:04 pm

TobyS nailed it, close this thread

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:14 pm

I’d say it’s whatever comes out first because that what gets ingrained in the collective consciousness. So it goes BoG/RoF movies, U6/Trunks/ToP anime, Broly movie (obviously, that’s the only one- the anime was over and the manga just said “buy tickets dweebs”), Moro/Granola manga. That’s the most sensible way to take it.

Is that terribly inconsistent? Yes but it doesn’t matter, those are the versions people remember.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:28 pm

It honestly, LEGITIMATELY depends on your definition of canon.

If one decided to go by what general marketing and media makes use of? Probably the anime.

If you don't care? Probably both are equally canon.

Buuuuuut, and this is where one has to be careful with their wording to avoid making people mad, there are stricter definitions of "canonical" that one could tend toward the manga being canon to the original manga, and the anime not.
  1. For one, the anime of Dragon Ball Super makes use of some minor plot points that only exist in the anime for Z, such as Bulma having been possessed by Ginyu. We know in the anime for DBS Goku trained with Gregory, because he exists on King Kai's world in that continuity.
  2. Secondly, Toriyama has arguably more "direct" ties to with how the story is portrayed in the manga, editing dialogue and occasionally drawing entire pages. He's also confirmed to have co-written the current arc with Toyotaro.
  3. Thirdly, there have been multiple instances where the anime deviated heavily from what we know was originally written or noted down by Toriyama.
    • Examples of this include Super Saiyan Goku Black, the final fight with Fused Zamasu being between Trunks and Fused Zamasu as opposed to Goku and Fused Zamasu, as well as the Potara's time limit having been originally been intended for Fused Zamasu, who it does not apply to in the anime, but does in the manga.
  4. Minor references to geographical locations (Mount Paozu) or visual references aside (Vegeta's casual wear being his GT outfit), there hasn't been any actual contradictions to the manga of Dragon Ball or references to filler events that didn't happen prior on the page.
  5. Lastly, you have Shueisha itself having referred to the manga for DBS several times as the canonical sequel (or whatever Japanese equivalent has been made note of by our dear founder) of the original manga.
It will really come down to your personal definition of what you consider more canonical. If original author-involvement carries weight though? I'd probably lean closer to the manga for the various reasons listed above.

EDIT: Nevermind the above, TobyS basically pointed it out.

I also accept BWri's answer, that there's a manga continuity and an anime continuity, with some weird stuff in-between but for the most part kept apart as well.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:53 pm

I argued that they are all canon and exist in different continuities. The person I argued with said Super is no more canon then GT or the movies and is just Toei BS while Toiryama actually has input of the manga.

I disagreed with this becasue but the anime and manga come from his plot outlines and this is not when he was in his prime writing a story every week.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:37 am

Kataphrut wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:14 pm I’d say it’s whatever comes out first because that what gets ingrained in the collective consciousness. So it goes BoG/RoF movies, U6/Trunks/ToP anime, Broly movie (obviously, that’s the only one- the anime was over and the manga just said “buy tickets dweebs”), Moro/Granola manga. That’s the most sensible way to take it.

Is that terribly inconsistent? Yes but it doesn’t matter, those are the versions people remember.
You know that's a very good way of looking at it, it's also not a secret that the Future Trunks and ToP arcs were very rushed compared to the anime counterpart. After all what's the point in developing the secret and mystery of Goku Black when everyone has already seen the anime? :think:

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Cipher » Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:24 am

Dragon Wukong wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:28 pm Lastly, you have Shueisha itself having referred to the manga for DBS several times as the canonical sequel (or whatever Japanese equivalent has been made note of by our dear founder) of the original manga.
To be fair though--and I'll note as a serious answer that I echo everyone noting the various factors to consider in favor of/against each, such as the manga following and to some extent responding to the anime for portions of its run, but Toriyama having more direct creative oversight over the manga on a scene-by-scene level--that statement was likely intended to draw a divide between DBS (as a manga in that particular case, as that's what they were showcasing) and other sequels and spin-offs such as DBGT, Dragon Ball Heroes fiction, etc., rather than draw a divide between the two versions of the series itself.

Less "this manga is the canonical sequel, so the anime version isn't," and more "we know there has been other post-Boo-arc DB fiction before, but this is time it's really for real the official canonical deal."

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:08 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:37 am
Kataphrut wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:14 pm I’d say it’s whatever comes out first because that what gets ingrained in the collective consciousness. So it goes BoG/RoF movies, U6/Trunks/ToP anime, Broly movie (obviously, that’s the only one- the anime was over and the manga just said “buy tickets dweebs”), Moro/Granola manga. That’s the most sensible way to take it.

Is that terribly inconsistent? Yes but it doesn’t matter, those are the versions people remember.
You know that's a very good way of looking at it, it's also not a secret that the Future Trunks and ToP arcs were very rushed compared to the anime counterpart. After all what's the point in developing the secret and mystery of Goku Black when everyone has already seen the anime? :think:
I was thinking more along the lines of us deciding our own collective canon since the people producing the thing are content to not give a definitive answer. Why would they anyway, it would only hurt the brand? Better to go with the majority. You ask most people where Bulma’s birthday party took place, they’ll say Capsule Corp. Who got the finishing blow on Zamasu? Trunks with a spirit sword. How did Goku first get Ultra Instinct? Got hit with his own Spirit Bomb. Who beat Kefla? UI Goku.

Besides, you can still have mysteries and twists in adaptations- I’d never read a Miles Morales comic before watching Into the Spiderverse, so the reveal that Aaron Davis was the Prowler was a legit surprise to me. The movie would have gained nothing by minimising that twist because some people might already know of it. I mean it’s an adaptation of a western superhero comic, nobody reads those anymore!

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:39 am

Kataphrut wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:08 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:37 am
Kataphrut wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:14 pm I’d say it’s whatever comes out first because that what gets ingrained in the collective consciousness. So it goes BoG/RoF movies, U6/Trunks/ToP anime, Broly movie (obviously, that’s the only one- the anime was over and the manga just said “buy tickets dweebs”), Moro/Granola manga. That’s the most sensible way to take it.

Is that terribly inconsistent? Yes but it doesn’t matter, those are the versions people remember.
You know that's a very good way of looking at it, it's also not a secret that the Future Trunks and ToP arcs were very rushed compared to the anime counterpart. After all what's the point in developing the secret and mystery of Goku Black when everyone has already seen the anime? :think:
I was thinking more along the lines of us deciding our own collective canon since the people producing the thing are content to not give a definitive answer. Why would they anyway, it would only hurt the brand? Better to go with the majority. You ask most people where Bulma’s birthday party took place, they’ll say Capsule Corp. Who got the finishing blow on Zamasu? Trunks with a spirit sword. How did Goku first get Ultra Instinct? Got hit with his own Spirit Bomb. Who beat Kefla? UI Goku.

Besides, you can still have mysteries and twists in adaptations- I’d never read a Miles Morales comic before watching Into the Spiderverse, so the reveal that Aaron Davis was the Prowler was a legit surprise to me. The movie would have gained nothing by minimising that twist because some people might already know of it. I mean it’s an adaptation of a western superhero comic, nobody reads those anymore!
The bolded part is the correct answer to this whole debacle. Since the videogames, merchandise, and even Heroes (the most popular card game in Japan and one of the most popular arcade videogames) clearly all follow the Anime continuity (there are exceptions, like that figurine of the shrugging Kefla, but it's an exception obviously), it would make literally 0 sense to try and discredit the anime.

The funny thing is that even GT wasn't deemed outright "non-canon", Toriyama merely called it a "little side adventure". Same thing for the movies, Toriyama didn't say they never happened or are non-canon, he simply said they take place in a sort of alternate dimension. Because in the end deeming something "non-canon" literally brings you no benefit to you as a creator and a corporation. If something sells, it doesn't matter if it's canon or not and frankly the vast majority of people (creators included) don't care. Look at GT, do most people care Toriyama didn't write it? Not really, the figurines of SS4 are still selling like crazy (and let's be real, it's the only GT thing that sells like crazy :think: ).

Plus people say "but Toriyama is working closely with Toyotaro as opposed to the anime", well yeah, because the anime is on hiatus :lol: I'd say that Toriyama expressing disappointment with the anime as some points is clear proof that he cares, like a teacher who expresses disappointment with a student because they want them to improve.

I doubt that there's someone on Earth who read the manga version of the Future Trunks arc before the anime version. Since the anime was the main product back when it was airing and was ahead. So I am confident when I say that 100% of the living souls on Earth had already watched the anime version of the Future Trunks arc before reading its manga adaptation. Or would have gotten spoiled anyway that Goku Black is Zamasu, since that was everywhere on the Internet.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:58 am

miguelnuva1 wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:53 pm I argued that they are all canon and exist in different continuities. The person I argued with said Super is no more canon then GT or the movies and is just Toei BS while Toiryama actually has input of the manga.

I disagreed with this becasue but the anime and manga come from his plot outlines and this is not when he was in his prime writing a story every week.
Well here's the thing, if "Toriyama had input" is the only thing that matters in "canon" then an argument could be made GT is a canonical alternate continuity too, because his input is the whole reason the series was a space adventure where Goku was a kid again. He created a lot of the concept art for that series.

But obviously "Toriyama had input" isn't the deciding factor to "canon" for a lot of people.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:03 am

I think it's true that, like comparing power levels, arguing about continuity is something Toriyama himself doesn't bother with or encourage. However:

- I do know people who have read the manga but avoided watching the anime, due to its (relative) poor quality

- Regarding GT, no one said "something is canon because Toriyama was involved" in the first place so the fact that he came up with some concepts doesn't seem relevant to me

- It's probably true that Toriyama himself has no concern with inter-media canon. Like power levels, it's a trivial game for obsessive fans, and he's more concerned with actually making an interesting story.

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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by BWri » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:24 pm

This'll never happen, but I'm hoping for something of a feedback loop. (Forgive me if I'm butchering the meaning of the term.)

In the not so distant future, I'm hoping that the anime team decides to make a definitive version of Super which closely follows the events of the manga ... and I'm hoping that Toyotaro has a completed version of the manga by then which covers the missing content such as RoF and Broly and possibly fleshes out those early arcs more and maybe adds some of the memorable content from the anime. And ultimately, I'm hoping this definitive version of Super can bridge the gap between the two continuities.

There's a lot getting in the way of a project like this, so I don't see it ever happening.
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Re: The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

Post by Miracles » Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:28 pm

Anyone remember when TOEI wanted to do a Dragonball movie and gave Toriyama the script to check; but Toriyama ended up rewriting the entire plot since he [as the author] couldn't "call TOEI's world Dragonball?" Thus enters Dragonball Battle of Gods movie!

That's canon Dragonball.

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