In defense of Toyotaro

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Alkiser
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In defense of Toyotaro

Post by Alkiser » Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:56 pm

I completely don't understand attacking Toyotaro, writing that what he does is garbage even though he puts in a big pound every month, attacking him on Twitter before the chapter was released (and then after it was fully published writing that it wasn't as bad as it looked). I understand that you can't be a fan of someone's work, but it's no exaggeration to go after him like the last piece of trash just because he didn't like the story.

I understand people who don't like his lines or the way he draws his characters or breaks down the scenes, I personally like them (I just feel pure sympathy for his work and the way he pays respect to Toriyama, manga and other people in his interviews). He seems like a likable person to me, but he goes to extremes in certain groups, some people attack him on social media for not being Toriyama in his prime, or just not drawing the kind of Dragon Ball they would like.


What kind of Dragon Ball someone would like is a matter of debate, because everyone has different tastes, but I think that he should not be treated as a second Toriyame, because it's harmful to both us (because we will be expecting unknown things), and the author himself through the growing pressure and possible mental problems associated with stress, pressure and awareness of how cult continues.

In my opinion, Toyotaro should be treated as a separate artist, and what he does should be evaluated not through the prism of Toriyama, but through the prism of his own work and the way he shows the world and the characters.

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Re: In defense of Toyotaro

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:31 pm

Couple quick things:

For all the criticism that gets tossed around, threads like this are also fairly common.

And then just jumping on the early points you made, re-pasting from a somewhat recent discussion in another thread:
VegettoEX wrote:If you are directly messaging or posting at authors and artists that you otherwise have no working or personal relationship with containing unprompted tirades of criticism, you are an absolute lunatic and you need to be separated from technology.

Don't be a reactionary nincompoop lashing out about things, particularly those you haven't even seen or read in its entirety in your own language.

Co-signing the taking companies to task, not the individual contributors.
That all being said, while I understand where you're coming from with wanting to analyze Toyotaro's works in a bubble separate from the shadow of Toriyama... that's inherently impossible here, since he's literally drawing those same characters in the same world with Toriyama's own oversight.

I think that viewpoint might be possible were Toyotaro able to do his own original work, and I think it might even be possible with something like Victory Mission (which is still based in existing franchise game lore, but clearly also has a direction and charisma of its own), but it really isn't possible with Dragon Ball Super.
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Alkiser
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Re: In defense of Toyotaro

Post by Alkiser » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:59 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:31 pm Couple quick things:

For all the criticism that gets tossed around, threads like this are also fairly common.

And then just jumping on the early points you made, re-pasting from a somewhat recent discussion in another thread:
VegettoEX wrote:If you are directly messaging or posting at authors and artists that you otherwise have no working or personal relationship with containing unprompted tirades of criticism, you are an absolute lunatic and you need to be separated from technology.

Don't be a reactionary nincompoop lashing out about things, particularly those you haven't even seen or read in its entirety in your own language.

Co-signing the taking companies to task, not the individual contributors.
That all being said, while I understand where you're coming from with wanting to analyze Toyotaro's works in a bubble separate from the shadow of Toriyama... that's inherently impossible here, since he's literally drawing those same characters in the same world with Toriyama's own oversight.

I think that viewpoint might be possible were Toyotaro able to do his own original work, and I think it might even be possible with something like Victory Mission (which is still based in existing franchise game lore, but clearly also has a direction and charisma of its own), but it really isn't possible with Dragon Ball Super.
Well Toyotaro is not Toriyama, although the drawings of both are 100% Dragon Ball, they both have a different style of drawing and showing the characters. I don't judge them similarly because they both do it in their own way, Toyotaro doesn't copy Toriyama's style 1:1 (Fenyo is perfect in this), because it's enough to look at their facial expressions, eyes, hands and face to see the differences. My main point is not to judge Toyotaro's work by looking at another Toriyama drawing, because they both do it a little differently.

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Re: In defense of Toyotaro

Post by coola » Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:36 am

As long as you criticize or dislike work that person is doing, i think it's ok, but, if you start posting stuff like "Kill yourself" or try to find private address so you can "complain" in person, that's going too far.

From what i ve heard, Toei or Toyotaro have some special message board, that have fans post what they want. With in my opinion is huge mistake, since every fan have their own idea how DB should go. I, for example, really dislike humans like Tien return to action, and want Goku and Vegeta to either retire, or finally evolve as characters, "i wanna fight strong guy! Here, have senzu" and "Saiyan pride" got so boring for me. But that's just my opinion, and lots of people might like decisions made for modern DB.
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Re: In defense of Toyotaro

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:16 am

What irks me the most is when they blame him for stuff probably, or definitely Toriyama came up with.

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Re: In defense of Toyotaro

Post by Necrosaber » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:03 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:16 am What irks me the most is when they blame him for stuff probably, or definitely Toriyama came up with.
Yea I see it all the time and it bugs me too. They blame Toyotaro when something happens they don't like, but praise Toriyama (or suggest he must have helped Toyo) if it's something they do like. It's like some folks don't want to accept the Toriyama from the 90s isn't the same as the one today.

That said, I do have issues with his dialogue at times and over use of panels. He's cleaned it up a bit with the latter but the former still leaves a lot to be desired. However, I feel at the heart of it, is that no matter how much he improves, he isn't Toriyama, which isn't his fault. No matter who draws the manga, whether it be Toyo or Young Jiji, are only ever doing their best to copy Toriyama, which makes them limited to drawing from his previous work. Toriyama draws from HIS own inspirations to create a unique and interesting product. I think Toyotaro is extremely talented and I have a soft spot for him since I'm such a big fan of his AF and followed him before we even got the job. He's living every fans dream and wanna root for him.

In a perfect world, Toriyama would be working on the Super manga and Toyotaro would be allowed to created a "canon" sequel manga to GT.

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