Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

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Tai Lung
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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:47 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:17 pm With all of the time and all of the wishes he was able to make, why didn't he ever consider coming up with any kind of contingency plan for Zeno? Even if he couldn't affect Zeno directly with a wish, he could have at least tried something like 'I wish Zeno will never find out about our plan', or he could have asked Zuno on how to avoid dealing with him.

It's possible that he just didn't know that Zeno existed (Shin didn't either, at first), but other than that it seems like an oversight.
In the anime, Zamasu was an apprentice of Kaioshin who stood out for his power not so much knowledge ... so he knew everything that gowasu had taught him until then so he probably did not know it ...

in the manga he knew him ... that's why he flinched when he saw him

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:48 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:37 pm So, you basically have to apply headcanon to make his contingency plan not a flawed one... and even then, the variables are tha: variables, so even with headcanon you might end up with a flawed contingency plan.
The contingency plan exists. To say that Zamasu did not have that is factually wrong.

This thread stated that Zamasu did not account for Zeno in his plan which is demonstrably false.

You too are applying headcanon, we need to apply headcanon because we speculate how that contingency would have worked out, but what is not headcanon is that he indeed took Zeno's existence into account, and was ready to act accordingly.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:59 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:48 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:37 pm So, you basically have to apply headcanon to make his contingency plan not a flawed one... and even then, the variables are tha: variables, so even with headcanon you might end up with a flawed contingency plan.
The contingency plan exists. To say that Zamasu did not have that is factually wrong.

This thread stated that Zamasu did not account for Zeno in his plan which is demonstrably false.

You too are applying headcanon, we need to apply headcanon because we speculate how that contingency would have worked out, but what is not headcanon is that he indeed took Zeno's existence into account, and was ready to act accordingly.
Nope, based on the characters, their motivations, their past actions, and this flawed plan of Zamasu, we can safely assume he would've been erased remotely or in person, sooner or later.

You'd need to re-write Zeno to make the contingency plan work, and that would be called... headcanon.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:06 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:59 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:48 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:37 pm So, you basically have to apply headcanon to make his contingency plan not a flawed one... and even then, the variables are tha: variables, so even with headcanon you might end up with a flawed contingency plan.
The contingency plan exists. To say that Zamasu did not have that is factually wrong.

This thread stated that Zamasu did not account for Zeno in his plan which is demonstrably false.

You too are applying headcanon, we need to apply headcanon because we speculate how that contingency would have worked out, but what is not headcanon is that he indeed took Zeno's existence into account, and was ready to act accordingly.
Nope, based on the characters, their motivations, their past actions, and this flawed plan of Zamasu, we can safely assume he would've been erased remotely or in person, sooner or later.

You'd need to re-write Zeno to make the contingency plan work, and that would be called... headcanon.
Speak for yourself please, you can assume that, and I can assume something else.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:13 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:06 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:59 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:48 pm

The contingency plan exists. To say that Zamasu did not have that is factually wrong.

This thread stated that Zamasu did not account for Zeno in his plan which is demonstrably false.

You too are applying headcanon, we need to apply headcanon because we speculate how that contingency would have worked out, but what is not headcanon is that he indeed took Zeno's existence into account, and was ready to act accordingly.
Nope, based on the characters, their motivations, their past actions, and this flawed plan of Zamasu, we can safely assume he would've been erased remotely or in person, sooner or later.

You'd need to re-write Zeno to make the contingency plan work, and that would be called... headcanon.
Speak for yourself please, you can assume that, and I can assume something else.
And you'd be using your own headcanon, going out of your way to explain how differently a character would need to act in order for the plan to work, which is perfectly fine.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:15 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:13 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:06 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:59 pm
Nope, based on the characters, their motivations, their past actions, and this flawed plan of Zamasu, we can safely assume he would've been erased remotely or in person, sooner or later.

You'd need to re-write Zeno to make the contingency plan work, and that would be called... headcanon.
Speak for yourself please, you can assume that, and I can assume something else.
And you'd be using your own headcanon, going out of your way to explain how differently a character would need to act in order for the plan to work, which is perfectly fine.
That's fine because I have no problem accepting that, I even said that, using the power of hindsight, I can conclude that Zamasu indeed could have made better preparations for Zeno (like using the Super Dragon Balls a third time to give himself some kind of counter to Zeno).

All I'm saying is that Zamasu indeed had a contingency ready for Zeno and did not forget about him, so the OP is wrong...

What this thread should be titled instead is "How should Zamasu have accounted for Zeno?", since we know that he indeed accounted for Zeno, even if his contingency might have underestimated just how psychopathic and volatile Zeno is.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Skar » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:22 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:48 pmThe contingency plan exists. To say that Zamasu did not have that is factually wrong.
Any criminal is going to run away to avoid punishment. That's not really a contingency plan if it's literally the only option they have. That could work if you're up against regular police but not a god who rules over everything and is known for destroying entire universes. A different outcome isn't implied in the story so Zamasu escaping would only be delaying it.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:24 pm

I mentioned this upthread, but "running away" was NOT a plan to avoid Zeno, it was a plan to avoid the Grand Priest. If Zamasu had a plan to deal with Zeno, we don't learn anything about it in the story.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:46 pm

I don't really think there's anything anyone can do to account for Zeno, that little guy can Thanos snap an entire universe out of existence and he destroys galaxies when he's bored.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:53 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:46 pm I don't really think there's anything anyone can do to account for Zeno, that little guy can Thanos snap an entire universe out of existence and he destroys galaxies when he's bored.
To be honest I doubt even the Super Dragon Balls would be able to do anything about Zeno, since he's literally the "King of Everything", and even Super Shenron is part of "Everything". So if Zamasu made a wish like "I wish for you to make Zeno disappear", Super Shenron might just say "That wish is beyond my capabilities".

There's really nothing else that can be done about Zeno other than escape, hide, pray that he doesn't notice you, and move on. Or try to manipulate him, but manipulating a volatile child is a gamble. Goku's lucky he is pretty friendly and Zeno liked him or the entire Multiverse would have ceased to exist :think:

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:30 am

Super Shenron is stated to be able to grant "any wish" so unless Zeno is somehow exempt from this, even he should be subject to whatever wish someone makes. Unless of course, I hallucinated that Super Shenron undid the multi-universal erasure(with no complaints that it was beyond it's power) from the Zeno twins???
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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:06 pm

theherodjl wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:30 am Super Shenron is stated to be able to grant "any wish" so unless Zeno is somehow exempt from this, even he should be subject to whatever wish someone makes. Unless of course, I hallucinated that Super Shenron undid the multi-universal erasure(with no complaints that it was beyond it's power) from the Zeno twins???
Like I said, we don't know if a wish to directly harm/overthrow him would work, but a wish to remain beneath his notice probably would have. If he wished that Zeno would never find out about the plan, then perhaps the button just wouldn't work when Goku pressed it.
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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:59 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:06 pmLike I said, we don't know if a wish to directly harm/overthrow him would work, but a wish to remain beneath his notice probably would have. If he wished that Zeno would never find out about the plan, then perhaps the button just wouldn't work when Goku pressed it.
If there is uncertainty in Super Shenron being able to grant "any" wish, I would think that the story would have made that point known by this point. According to both of the Zeno here, the dragon can infact do anything.
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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:42 pm

theherodjl wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:59 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:06 pmLike I said, we don't know if a wish to directly harm/overthrow him would work, but a wish to remain beneath his notice probably would have. If he wished that Zeno would never find out about the plan, then perhaps the button just wouldn't work when Goku pressed it.
If there is uncertainty in Super Shenron being able to grant "any" wish, I would think that the story would have made that point known by this point. According to both of the Zeno here, the dragon can infact do anything.
https://youtu.be/LmvwPVwxQtk
Yeah but they said that about the original Shenron too until they needed to impose some limitations for the sake of the plot :think:
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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:13 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:42 pm
theherodjl wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:59 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:06 pmLike I said, we don't know if a wish to directly harm/overthrow him would work, but a wish to remain beneath his notice probably would have. If he wished that Zeno would never find out about the plan, then perhaps the button just wouldn't work when Goku pressed it.
If there is uncertainty in Super Shenron being able to grant "any" wish, I would think that the story would have made that point known by this point. According to both of the Zeno here, the dragon can infact do anything.
https://youtu.be/LmvwPVwxQtk
Yeah but they said that about the original Shenron too until they needed to impose some limitations for the sake of the plot :think:
The original Shenron never had the dilemma of having to undo the erasure of existence. The biggest feat he accomplished was reviving numerous people from the dead, something that never conflicted with what he could do just as granting any wish isn't any point of contention with Super Shenron.
If "any" wish is an exaggeration, that would paint Zalama, both Zeno, and a whole lot of other people as liars or being misinformed.
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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:16 pm

theherodjl wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:13 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:42 pm
theherodjl wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:59 pm

If there is uncertainty in Super Shenron being able to grant "any" wish, I would think that the story would have made that point known by this point. According to both of the Zeno here, the dragon can infact do anything.
https://youtu.be/LmvwPVwxQtk
Yeah but they said that about the original Shenron too until they needed to impose some limitations for the sake of the plot :think:
The original Shenron never had the dilemma of having to undo the erasure of existence. The biggest feat he accomplished was reviving numerous people from the dead, something that never conflicted with what he could do just as granting any wish isn't any point of contention with Super Shenron.
If "any" wish is an exaggeration, that would paint Zalama, both Zeno, and a whole lot of other people as liars or being misinformed.
I'm just saying they tend to retcon these things a lot. 'No, in reality this guy was the strongest in the universe, we just never heard about him before', or 'there's actually a god higher than this guy, we just didn't know about him until now'. It would hardly be unprecedented, I'm saying.
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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Yuji » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:16 pm

It's possible Zamasu didn't know about the Omni-King's temper or his track record with destroying universes. A lot of his shortcomings in the arc come as a cost of his ignorance and inexperience as a Kaioshin.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Peach » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:46 pm

Zamasu did plan for Zeno. He went to a universe where he didn't give AF

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Krillin1994 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:07 am

I've had a few clashes with SupremeKai25 on these forums, but got to agree they did pretty much make it clear with that manga page, there was a contingency plan, whether it was a good contingency plan or not Zamasu and Black had thought about what to do were Zeno to find out and become involved.

Can't recall if such a contigency was made in the anime.

We don't really know the extent of how fast Zeno and his guards could travel, unsure if they have a kai kai version of travelling, but I feel it is probably more the Whis method of travel. I suppose with Zamasu's kai kai hiding on a dif planet could work. But as others say Zeno could just destroy. It depends on his temperment.

Also the point of Zamasu being a master of deception because he tricked Gowasu isn't that Valid. Gowasu wanted desperately to believe the good in his apprentice, he was too full of emotion to be able to have clear judgement so wanted to believe that his apprentice could be saved.

A more apt moment of looking at the deception skills of Zamasu would be from when he gets a few questions from Beerus and Whis and pretty much falls apart. (admittedly though they had the knowledge of gowasu death from rewind, but he quickly just switches to try and fight instead of trying to talk his way out of it) - arguably if he could've somehow convinced them he had changed from that encounter would they have valid authority to erase a godly being because they experienced it in a future they then went back and altered.

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Re: Why didn't Zamasu account for Zeno?

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:41 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:16 pm It's possible Zamasu didn't know about the Omni-King's temper or his track record with destroying universes. A lot of his shortcomings in the arc come as a cost of his ignorance and inexperience as a Kaioshin.
Makes sense. Planning to just run away from a guy who plays with universes as if they were marbels seems like something someone, with no idea about what that being is all about, would do.

To be fair with Zamasu, he was only a Kaio, not just yet adding shin to his title, a pretty low-end God trying to work his way up. He doesn't necessarily have to know how's Zeno like or what he's capable of. Some things might be off limits.

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