Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

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Yuji
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Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Yuji » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:36 am

It seems like the only way for the duo to get stronger now is through learning or perfecting godly techniques and gaining a deeper understanding of Ki. You never see them getting stronger from conventional physical training anymore nor any noticeable improvements to their base/SS forms coming as a result. Any improvement is usually shown through a new transformation or technique.

This is a question for the manga, of course, as in the anime Goku and Vegeta get ridiculous power ups in the fashion of Z. But in the manga, the power ups are always very nuanced. For instance, after losing to Black, Vegeta trains not to improve his overall physical power but to train his dexterity at switching forms. Their training in general all throughout Super has focused on perfecting Blue and now the Ultra forms.

I guess this is also a consequence of having less "fodder fights" that function like a decent measuring stick like in Z so we can accurately gage the improvements form by form. New opponents are usually presented without much of a comparison to previous threats (besides the usual "he's the strongest guy we fought!") whereas in the original series even lesser mooks warranted comparisons to previous antagonists.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:00 am

Even regarding the way the manga works, the Saiyan duo can still improve their basic skills (in base) by training with Whis, for example.
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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:21 am

I don't know, I think they haven't. Vegeta has been improving in his base form a lot for the past two arcs. He trained his spirit and became much stronger, and now he learned hakai(he's always seen training in his base form) and his SSBE is much stronger than it was against Moro.
Goku's SSB form also was much stronger after training with Merus, even though he didn't train that form.

Should be noted that in the FT arc, they have reached a limit, but it was their zenkai boost limit, not their base form limit.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by fleahop » Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:48 pm

Assuming I interpreted your post correctly, yes. I believe they have reached their natural physical limits.

Now I personally believe they have reached their natural physical base limits a couple of times. Once around/before Buu. Once after Whis training their base forms again and restricting SSJ. Maybe once more before TOP where we see maybe they were slacking off from training base forms.

Now mentally and spiritually as well as knowledge? No. No limits is kinda the name of the game. Physically? Definitely.
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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:24 pm

I think they have reached 100% of their natural limits, concerning the strength they can gain through near-death experiences, by the time they become able to turn Super Saiyans.

Anything past that requires a different kind of stimulus, like getting used to the stress of stronger levels of Super Saiyan or greater mastery of ki control or even mindfulness. Divine techniques also act as their current greatest stimulus to improve their fighting prowess.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Skar » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:15 pm

I remember Toriyama saying the characters were near their max strength during BoG so maybe they reached their "mortal" limit and obtaining God ki gave them a new limit? My theory is that the highest power a mortal could reach with God ki is around the strength of a God of Destruction or between a GoD and Angel. I could be wrong but depends what happens after Goku fully masters UI.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Thani » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:16 pm

It's important to remember, also, that while the transformations acts as power ups, they're actually akin to the saiyans full power being released.

In Goku and Vegeta's case, their full power is the full output of Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego respectively. The catch is that their bodies transform in order to reach their full power, that's just how saiyans works. Goku's rage made him able to release unbelievable amounts of chi when Freeza triggered him by killing Kuririn, and it resulted in his body transforming into the "legendary" Super Saiyan state in order to hold this much power.

So, to me, yeah, their "normal" state isn't getting stronger than what it is now, because if it did, they would just transform naturally to accomodate that new level of power.

Miiiiight be headcanon of my part, but it has always been my interpretation.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:04 am

No, they definitely have not reached their own "natural" limits yet. It is made very clear that Goku and Vegeta are capable of increasing their strength in their own respective forms during the Goku Black Saga in which Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta pummelled Super Saiyan Goku Black. Goku Black not only was much stronger according to Trunks, but Base Goku Black prior to his power boost was already much stronger than SSJ2 Trunks who was comparable to SSJ3 Goku. This means that Vegeta had at least grown many times stronger. After training in the RoSaT, Vegeta went from losing to SSJ Goku Black after his zenkai boosts, to overpowering Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

Of course, Goku and Vegeta have always sought different skills and techniques in order to grow, but that doesn't negate the power they received through proper training. Vegeta's training on Yardrat was explicitly stated to have made him much stronger just by honing his spirit since spiritual energy is a significant portion of ki. Goku was capable of nonchalantly pummeling Saganboro who was stronger than Gohan and Gohan not only was training as well, but he was stronger than SSJ Kefla as of ToP.

During the Granola arc, Granola was the strongest in the universe prior to Goku and Vegeta's training. During Goku's battle with Granola, he explicitly states that the title of strongest in the universe isn't something that Granola would reach so easily because of their recent training which implies that their recent training that involved honing their technique actually led to a significant boost. Vegeta, of course, was growing stronger during his battle with Granola prior to transforming.

There certainly is a trend in which honing their technique actually increases their power as well. Mastering Super Saiyan Blue enabled Goku to battle on par with Merged Zamasu, honing Vegeta's spirit led to a significant power boost, and Goku training to use UI in all of his forms and Vegeta learning GoD techniques led to them competing with Granola. There is a clear trend in which pursuing different avenues is necessary for surpassing your limits rather than simply beating up your body which was already established in Z.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:58 pm

There also is the fact that Base Goku & Vegeta managed to briefly tangle with Jiren, with Goku alone being able to hold Jiren in place for Freeza's attack. Even if they were all tired and low on Ki, an exhausted Jiren would likely be enough to defeat the majority(if not, all) of the DBZ cast.
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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:10 am

Don't think this interaction happens in the manga, but in the anime, Vegeta speculates prior to the Universe 6 tournament that they're both near the natural limits of their strength and that training in the Time Chamber won't accomplish much. Then in the Black arc it's revealed that they've exhausted their zenkai boost cache. By the end of the anime, after seeing every Saiyan in the Tournament of Power achieve new levels (except Gohan, RIP), he's proudly proclaiming that "Saiyans have no limits!" which was apparently a good enough line that it became the tagline for the next movie. Character development? :o

I'd say they reached their "natural" limits before Super, but unlocking godly ki and later techniques/transformations has raised their base forms higher than would ever be possible through normal training alone.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by BWri » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:24 am

I don't think so. I would be kind of excited if they did, because we can start focusing solely on technique and strategy over pure power. We seem to be headed in that direction so maybe we'll eventually get there, but Dragon Ball seems wedded to the idea of breaking hard limits which the series almost strictly relates to power.

They did toy with the idea of hard limits in the anime prior to the 3 years of RoSaT training Goku and Vegeta undertook post-RoF, but that was dropped in a heartbeat. Then they established the Zenkai degradation for Goku and Vegeta during the Future Trunks arc, but I'm not sure if that's still in place. I don't think its been referenced. They clearly still get them in the anime though.
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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:36 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:10 am Don't think this interaction happens in the manga, but in the anime, Vegeta speculates prior to the Universe 6 tournament that they're both near the natural limits of their strength and that training in the Time Chamber won't accomplish much. Then in the Black arc it's revealed that they've exhausted their zenkai boost cache. By the end of the anime, after seeing every Saiyan in the Tournament of Power achieve new levels (except Gohan, RIP), he's proudly proclaiming that "Saiyans have no limits!" which was apparently a good enough line that it became the tagline for the next movie. Character development? :o

I'd say they reached their "natural" limits before Super, but unlocking godly ki and later techniques/transformations has raised their base forms higher than would ever be possible through normal training alone.
It should be noted that Vegeta didn't obtain Godly Ki the same way that Goku had. Vegeta actually just trained a lot for several months and then obtained the power of a God. That implies that good ol' fashioned training isn't down & out...yet.
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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Trouser » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:12 am

No, they still have plenty transformations up their sleeve. I think another levels of Ultra Instinct and Caveman form are going to appear.

There is no limits in Dragon Ball (even when creators says so, they contradict themselves later).
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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:23 pm

Yuji wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:36 am It seems like the only way for the duo to get stronger now is through learning or perfecting godly techniques and gaining a deeper understanding of Ki. You never see them getting stronger from conventional physical training anymore nor any noticeable improvements to their base/SS forms coming as a result. Any improvement is usually shown through a new transformation or technique.

This is a question for the manga, of course, as in the anime Goku and Vegeta get ridiculous power ups in the fashion of Z. But in the manga, the power ups are always very nuanced. For instance, after losing to Black, Vegeta trains not to improve his overall physical power but to train his dexterity at switching forms. Their training in general all throughout Super has focused on perfecting Blue and now the Ultra forms.

I guess this is also a consequence of having less "fodder fights" that function like a decent measuring stick like in Z so we can accurately gage the improvements form by form. New opponents are usually presented without much of a comparison to previous threats (besides the usual "he's the strongest guy we fought!") whereas in the original series even lesser mooks warranted comparisons to previous antagonists.
No, Son Goku and Vegeta have not yet reached their very own absolute natural limits, as Son Goku and Vegeta have yet to 100% master all of their very own current powers and abilities, and not to mention the fact that Son Goku and Vegeta have not yet achieved all of the rest of the natural forms of the Saiyan race too.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:35 pm

We Saiyans have no real limits. DB has proven that time and time again. 'Nuff said.
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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Jord » Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:58 am

Goku and Vegeta have very interesting limits. They are tied to merchandise sales.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:27 am

I think the direction they're going with the story is to eventually have Vegeta become a God of Destruction, and Goku, in his efforts to master ultra instinct, develop full angel powers. When this happens they'll be forbidden from interfering in mortal affairs and will be forced into mentor roles similar to Beerus and Whis, and then the next generation will take over.

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Re: Have Goku and Vegeta reached their natural limit?

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:33 pm

I don't see how one can possibly reach a state where they can no longer increase their strength when they can always break free of their limits.
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