Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:48 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:56 pm"GaS HaS nO ChArAcTeR DePtH"
I think it would be more accurate to say "Gas is boring".

Dragon Ball villains have never had that much depth I'll admit, but they've had much more personality than Gas that's for sure.

Also I don't know where all of this "No ReAsoN, ZeRO dEPtH" nonsense is coming from in regard to the original Dragon Ball villains.
Vegeta was just a bad guy who wanted to rule the universe for no reason
Vegeta wanted to wish for immortality in order to fulfil the ultimate Saiyan fantasy of fighting for an eternity.
Freeza was also a bad guy who wanted to rule the universe for no reason
Freeza wanted to run and expand his planet trading empire for eternity.
Cell was only interested in defeating Goku because he was programmed to do so
Cell never had any particular inclination to fight Goku, you must be thinking of Android 16
Upon becoming Perfect Cell he decided to let his opponents grow stronger and host a martial arts tournament due to Goku's genetic influence on his personality, the closest we got to an Evil Goku in the original manga.
a member of the Red Ribbon Army, who, yeah you guessed it, wanted to rule the world for no particular reason.
Dr. Gero created the Androids and Cell in order to get revenge on Goku who destroyed the Red Ribbon Army in his youth
The Red Ribbon Army was created to make Commander Red taller, it's one of the funniest gags in the franchise.
Babidi was an evil wizard who wanted to rule the universe no reason
Babidi also wanted revenge on the Gods for killing his father.
Buu was chaotic evil with no motivation behind him at all
Fat Buu had a pretty endearing character arc with Mr. Satan and learnt some level of morality from him.

Honestly, what is it with Dragon Ball Super defenders and trying to trash the original manga to make Super look better by comparison?
Have you even read the manga? :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ShaggyBlanco » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:52 pm

"Freaky-face Mode" :lol:
I love Gas' fighting style but I really don't care about his "grudge" on Granolah or his loyalty to Elec, like, no wonder the arc didn't focus on him until now imo

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:03 pm

Nice to finally have dedicated threads for manga chapters.

I liked this chapter. Finally Gas does not look like a dreadlocked Kid Buu anymore. He looks quite cool, now. And I like his fighting style. The art and panelling in was particularly good this time around. The dialogue was also interesting, and I liked the Ultra Ego’s joke.

I am not a fan of the pacing, but I haven’t been since Moro so I guess we should just deal with it. I wonder how long this arc will last? They may want to kickstart a new arc immediately after the movie, so there may not be too many chapters left, I guess, but I also can’t really see this ending within a few chapters. Freeza is yet to appear, if he ever will. Bardock’s fight with Gas is still a mystery. Granolah’s 3 years time span after the wish was quite specific (why not 1 year?), meaning there may be still more to it story-wise. We have no idea what Zuno told the Heeters. And what if Bardock actually gets revived? I guess we’re also in for some more training, as Goku and Vegeta haven’t really mastered their techniques yet.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:11 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:56 pm Buu was chaotic evil with no motivation behind him at all; he didn't even want to rule the universe, he was just evil.
Think about your comparisons a little more critically.

Boo, whom Gas resembles the most in appearance, had nothing but wanton destruction on his mind and yet far more to offer in his introductory arc alone. There were quirks to his personality, there were relationships with other characters (Satan and the puppy, Babidi, etc.), there were all sorts of goofy abilities that constantly facilitated the plot like splitting up into halves, absorbing other fighters, or turning people into candy. All of this stuff actively played a role. This is depth, or as much as is needed to serve the arc.

That's not even mentioning mainline DB's other antagonists. I chose Boo specifically because he's the most salient comparison, as a villain frequently ragged on by the fandom for having nothing to him.

Gas has none of this. There's nothing to his personality, no relevance to Granolah's story, nothing to his weapon-summoning abilities other than "it's kewl". He's a Super Dragon Ball Heroes character in everything but name.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:14 pm

emperior wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:03 pm I am not a fan of the pacing, but I haven’t been since Moro so I guess we should just deal with it.
Honestly, I thought this chapter's pacing was fitting. It felt a bit quicker and there was a lot more going on.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:02 pm

I was pleasantly surprised this chapter was so.. uh.. fast-paced. I wasn't expecting the wish to be granted and Gas already fighting people, I was sure it was going to be the cliffhanger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:14 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:56 pm "GaS HaS nO ChArAcTeR DePtH"

It's Dragon Ball, people, none of the villians have depth. Vegeta was just a bad guy who wanted to rule the universe for no reason; his character wasn't given any depth until after his villian arc ended. Freeza was also a bad guy who wanted to rule the universe for no reason. Cell was only interested in defeating Goku because he was programmed to do so by a member of the Red Ribbon Army, who, yeah you guessed it, wanted to rule the world for no particular reason. Babidi was an evil wizard who wanted to rule the universe no reason, and Buu was chaotic evil with no motivation behind him at all; he didn't even want to rule the universe, he was just evil.

As for the chapter, I enjoyed it. I think they've given Gas an interesting technique that should make for some very cool looking fight scenes. I have a feeling the cost Gas will pay for those powers will be greater than Granolahs, though, and that's why they didn't show the wish being made. Elec probably doesn't care what happens to Gas later, all that matters is that he gets the job done.
I think it's a fair complaint. Gas really doesn't have much going for him right now besides the revenge thing so it's hard to care about him. Granolah since the beginning had his character tied to a broader narrative and Goku / Vegeta, with a lot of focus on his background / past.

But the thing is, I doubt Gas is going to be the main villain of the arc, as Toyo seems to be setting up Elec as the grand antagonist and schemer of it all, with Gas just serving as the Heeters' muscle because well, that's Dragon Ball and it's hard to believe the Heeters could achieve their goals without someone capable of punching the Saiyans hard enough. I also hope the focus remains on Elec as to me he is a much more interesting character.

But there is still the rest of the Bardock plot and we know very little about Gas overall, it remains to be seen how his relationship with the rest of the Heeters and with the other key characters will continue to be developed, so it is possible that more depth will be given to him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:40 pm

Something is up with Elec's wish.

We're led to believe he simply wished for Gas to become the Universe's most powerful warrior, but the way it happened offscreen tells me there's more to it. Did he reduce Gas's lifespan in bringing out that amount of power? Or did Elec have the dragon unleash Gas's dormant power normally like the dragon intended to do for Granolah initially?

Gas knows about the Saiyans and Granolah and had no qualms finishing everyone off under his own power. Elec seemed pretty adamant on making the wish regardless of how Gas felt, though.

The part about Bardock is intriguing as well.

So I'm guessing Bardock is gonna end up being a lot more powerful than we originally thought or Gas has a very exploitable weakness.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:11 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:23 pm Shouldn't this arc last until the movie is released? I think we have around 10 more chapters to go.
It can outlast the movie, no reason why they have to be tied. Toyotaro didn't end ToP just because DBS Broly released or anything.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZodiacBeast » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:28 pm

Maybe Elec worded the wish so that Gas will only keep his strength if he doesn't betray him, or that Gas will die after he takes care of Goku, Vegeta and Granollah, so that he can get rid of Gas...maybe Elec's actions are part of how Gas was beaten by Bardock? Or...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:13 pm

Enjoyable Chapter - I feel this was definitely the right move for the plot to take at this time.

Gas's particular personality (or lack thereof) is maybe a little beside the point - the Heeters are a unit, and each of them has played a particular role in the story so far. Macki has been the plausible face and dissembling voice of the operation; Oil has been its eyes and ears; Elec is the active, scheming mind; Gas is the hands and muscles - they don't have complete identities alone, at least in the context of the story, and I find the story exploring the dynamic within the group to be rewarding - particularly the growing sense that Elec has essentially forced 'Gas's Wish' onto him, which accentuates the sense of Gas as an instrument (albeit the mightiest one) subordinated to the controlling brain of Elec, rather than a real equal within the unit. The reveal of Gas as an adult now may also actually underline this subordination, as it might speak to Elec agreeing unilaterally to use up Gas's lifeforce to make the wish: there might not be a future for him in the unit; his strength certainly isn't in Elec's vision of the Heeters' future.

In terms of what the heroes might do to resist (besides the possibility of further interplay with whatever happened the encounter between Bardock and Gas, which a number of us have already suggested), I only just noticed that Granolah lost his second red eye near the end of Chapter 77 (twice), so this is the most obvious way in which Vegeta's insistence that Granolah should get his revenge 'with his own strength' might apply in the next Chapter or two of combat.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:19 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:13 pm Gas's particular personality (or lack thereof) is maybe a little beside the point - the Heeters are a unit, and each of them has played a particular role in the story so far. Macki has been the plausible face and dissembling voice of the operation; Oil has been its eyes and ears; Elec is the active, scheming mind; Gas is the hands and muscles - they don't have complete identities alone, at least in the context of the story, and I find the story exploring the dynamic within the group to be rewarding - particularly the growing sense that Elec has essentially forced 'Gas's Wish' onto him, which accentuates the sense of Gas as an instrument (albeit the mightiest one) subordinated to the controlling brain of Elec, rather than a real equal within the unit. The reveal of Gas as an adult now may also actually underline this subordination, as it might speak to Elec agreeing unilaterally to use up Gas's lifeforce to make the wish: there might not be a future for him in the unit; his strength certainly isn't in Elec's vision of the Heeters' future.
Really great points. And regarding Elec's manipulation of Gas, those scenes seem less odd in retrospect.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:06 pm

Good chapter, but I really can't see a way to extend this arc any further. The battle with Gas should conclude in Cereal, and Elec should get his second wish granted which should hopefully spice things up. I don't see a way for Freeza to enter the plot at this point, but I hope I'm wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:49 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:13 pm Enjoyable Chapter - I feel this was definitely the right move for the plot to take at this time.

Gas's particular personality (or lack thereof) is maybe a little beside the point - the Heeters are a unit, and each of them has played a particular role in the story so far. Macki has been the plausible face and dissembling voice of the operation; Oil has been its eyes and ears; Elec is the active, scheming mind; Gas is the hands and muscles - they don't have complete identities alone, at least in the context of the story, and I find the story exploring the dynamic within the group to be rewarding - particularly the growing sense that Elec has essentially forced 'Gas's Wish' onto him, which accentuates the sense of Gas as an instrument (albeit the mightiest one) subordinated to the controlling brain of Elec, rather than a real equal within the unit. The reveal of Gas as an adult now may also actually underline this subordination, as it might speak to Elec agreeing unilaterally to use up Gas's lifeforce to make the wish: there might not be a future for him in the unit; his strength certainly isn't in Elec's vision of the Heeters' future.

In terms of what the heroes might do to resist (besides the possibility of further interplay with whatever happened the encounter between Bardock and Gas, which a number of us have already suggested), I only just noticed that Granolah lost his second red eye near the end of Chapter 77 (twice), so this is the most obvious way in which Vegeta's insistence that Granolah should get his revenge 'with his own strength' might apply in the next Chapter or two of combat.
I didn't mention it because I do partially agree with your appreciation, but also this aspect that you mention of Gas is something we can see, but is not really properly shown or communicated; so I think it's a fair criticism, specially considering the current focus on Gas, and that it seems to be a main element of the character as his identity and role in the group. Of course, he just became the focus, so maybe they will portrait this aspect of him better in the next chapters, but as for now, the character is imo lacking.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:54 pm

I agree that the Heeters are "supposed" to be seen as a unit. I felt that was fairly obvious from the start.

However, that dynamic isn't much reflected in this chapter. It's Gas's chapter. His name's in the title. Those 45 pages are focused solely on the brawns of the group (without the brains, and I should mention again that Gas has only peripheral relevance to Granolah's background and character arc) and short of having Elec catch up to the rest of them midway through, there's not a lot of opportunities this month to see those characters bounce off of each other in interesting ways. What we see is what we get.

But if there's any argument to be made that there's a reason for Elec staying behind, then that too lends to what I'm saying -- the chapter is a necessary evil for the plot, setting up something that will pay off later rather than now. That doesn't suddenly make first-time readthrough criticisms invalid by any means. I think Gas is boring, therefore this conflict is boring. That's how my cookie crumbles. But see, in-the-moment enjoyment is part of Dragon Ball's whole identity.

If there's anything I'm excited for going forward, it's Granolah and the characters that personally affect him in some way. I have no reason to be invested in Gas, so the less time we spend with him alone the better.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:32 pm

I didn’t find either the character bits nor the action this month as compelling as in previous chapters, but that’s fine. At least Gas has a neat visual hook to his attacks.

More on the accidental(?) throughline, starting in the Boo arc, of solid ki constructs being particularly advanced and impressive techniques.

Mostly I’m just left curious as to the overall pace and structure of the arc now. Are we in for another compact one where we’re already headed into the actual climax, or is there another major shift and entire act left to come?

Hoping for the latter, but open to the former.

EDIT— I also agree that Gas is not a particularly compelling villain, at least right now, when at the fore, as the brains and charisma are all in Elec (who I quite like). Maki’s fun as well. Gas’ stoic muscle shtick does work better when he’s just one member of the group, but there’s room to change that dynamic up yet.

EDIT EDIT— This arc, and chapter, also continue to give us the best Vegeta since the original run (and in some ways outdoing it; as I’ve said previously, he might be among the small handful of characters I think actively benefit from the addition of Super), even though he isn’t quite as present this month as in the pre-flashback chapters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:00 pm

Vegeta’s characterisation in this arc is the best he has ever been written during this revival era of Dragon Ball. He hasn’t been written this well since the Buu arc. That last moment with him and Granolah was fantastic. It’s so refreshing after how he was treated in the Moro arc.

Solid chapter overall. I like Gas’s new design, even if his character is kinda flat. On their own, the Heaters aren’t that compelling, but they’re a lot more interesting as a group.

I hope this isn’t the final stretch of the arc and we get a pause in the next couple chapters. I still think there’s still more to be told like how OG-73 is involved in all of this and whether or not Freeza will come in to play.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:15 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:06 pm Good chapter, but I really can't see a way to extend this arc any further. The battle with Gas should conclude in Cereal, and Elec should get his second wish granted which should hopefully spice things up. I don't see a way for Freeza to enter the plot at this point, but I hope I'm wrong.
Cipher wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:32 pm Mostly I’m just left curious as to the overall pace and structure of the arc now. Are we in for another compact one where we’re already headed into the actual climax, or is there another major shift and entire act left to come?
If the Moro arc is anything to go by, then I think it's possible that this battle is actually a turning point for the actual unfolding of the rest of the arc.

Particulary (and I remember a lot of people feeling the same way at the time if my brain isn't fooling me), the Namek section of Moro arc felt like the end of the battle/arc too, and it turned out to be the starting point for a lot of other events. I'm not sure what directions this story might take now, but we have some undefined plot points yet and if Toyo plans to involve Freeza, I definitely see this arc extending further. The Moro arc lasted about 24 chapters, so if the planning is for Granolah to last at least as long as then there's still plenty to happen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:26 pm

Pretty good chapter. Glad we didn't see lots more Bardock. I really don't know where this is going next, which is exciting.

Also, what is the meaning behind Macki's name?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:01 am

Nobody ever discusses poor Oil

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