Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:35 am

TKA wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:00 pm It also helps that the original run often had multiple storylines running concurrently. Characters were always all over the map doing their own thing, and a background tension while reading is "How will these things intersect?". Toyotaro's two arcs have just been one central plot without any of the abrupt twists or swerves Dragonball is known for; what you see is what you get, and you aren't seeing much.
I think it's due to the nature of DBS and where the story is at now. GT also had simpler and more direct stories than the original. To be honest I'm not sure what could be done to change it. There's enough going on to keep me interested but I can understand if others don't feel that way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:54 am

Skar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:35 am
TKA wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:00 pm It also helps that the original run often had multiple storylines running concurrently. Characters were always all over the map doing their own thing, and a background tension while reading is "How will these things intersect?". Toyotaro's two arcs have just been one central plot without any of the abrupt twists or swerves Dragonball is known for; what you see is what you get, and you aren't seeing much.
I think it's due to the nature of DBS and where the story is at now. GT also had simpler and more direct stories than the original. To be honest I'm not sure what could be done to change it. There's enough going on to keep me interested but I can understand if others don't feel that way.
Definitely right, during the Moro arc when Goku and Vegeta split up to train in their own ways was some of the coolest and memorable stuff we have seen from the manga. Not that I'm not interested, but multiple facets of a story can make it better if done right (otherwise everyone's just like can we get back to the other act please).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TBMx » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:30 am

nato25 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:54 am
Skar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:35 am
TKA wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:00 pm It also helps that the original run often had multiple storylines running concurrently. Characters were always all over the map doing their own thing, and a background tension while reading is "How will these things intersect?". Toyotaro's two arcs have just been one central plot without any of the abrupt twists or swerves Dragonball is known for; what you see is what you get, and you aren't seeing much.
I think it's due to the nature of DBS and where the story is at now. GT also had simpler and more direct stories than the original. To be honest I'm not sure what could be done to change it. There's enough going on to keep me interested but I can understand if others don't feel that way.
Definitely right, during the Moro arc when Goku and Vegeta split up to train in their own ways was some of the coolest and memorable stuff we have seen from the manga. Not that I'm not interested, but multiple facets of a story can make it better if done right (otherwise everyone's just like can we get back to the other act please).
Going to Yardrat to polish his spirit was something Goku did back in dbz. Vegeta took it further but I would hardly consider that his own way. Same with Hakai, Goku was obliterating immortal gods long before Vegeta learned it. Own way seems to mean following Goku but taking it further. And considering Vegeta only managed to Hakai Granolah's gloves, how much further is dubious.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:57 am

I'm looking forward to next chapter's fight-conversation. Any thoughts/anticipations as to what Granolah and Gas might talk about? I'm guessing the conditions of the wish will come up. Maybe Gas already knows, maybe Granolah will pull a Goku (point out the manipulation), maybe Gas didn't know but doesn't care, or maybe there's more to it than Granolah suspects.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:10 pm

Granolah: You killed my mom and ruined my life.

Gas: ...

OR

Granolah: You killed my mom and ruined my life.

Gas: something something strength.
------------
Joking aside, neither character has enough dimensions to think about what they're going to say beyond the obvious. At least for me anyway.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:15 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:10 pm Granolah: You killed my mom and ruined my life.

Gas: ...
Akshuwally, Elec was the one who killed Granolah's mum, so Gas wouldn't have much to say about it anyways.

In all seriousness...yeah, I see your point. I don't see Gran and Gas' beef with each other having any impact on the story in terms of drama.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:58 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:10 pm Joking aside, neither character has enough dimensions to think about what they're going to say beyond the obvious. At least for me anyway.
I think you're being a bit uncharitable. Gas has been Laconic up until now, but others have pointed out his feelings towards Granolah, and we've yet to see him under pressure. If you somehow still view Granolah as one dimensional, he has clearly been affected by Vegeta's mentorship, so we can at least expect to see how that plays out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:57 am

batistabus wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:58 pm I think you're being a bit uncharitable. Gas has been Laconic up until now, but others have pointed out his feelings towards Granolah, and we've yet to see him under pressure. If you somehow still view Granolah as one dimensional, he has clearly been affected by Vegeta's mentorship, so we can at least expect to see how that plays out.
Gas is an empty character thus far. Nothing points to him having a special grudge with Granolah that doesn't extend to every impediment in their way. He's less about the plans and more about the action. But then he also doesn't talk much, and that keeps him from being any kind of presence onscreen. He's a Toei villain so far.

As for Granolah, I think you're conflating dimensions with depth. Vegeta is a character with both, as is Goku. Granolah only has depth. There's nothing else to him other than he is angry and wants revenge. What are his hobbies? What are the things that make him have a good time? What are his thoughts on Palestine and Israel?

It's all just so dry. What you see is what you get, and nothing beyond that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by fleahop » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:59 am

TKA wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:57 am As for Granolah, I think you're conflating dimensions with depth. Vegeta is a character with both, as is Goku. Granolah only has depth. There's nothing else to him other than he is angry and wants revenge. What are his hobbies? What are the things that make him have a good time? What are his thoughts on Palestine and Israel?

It's all just so dry. What you see is what you get, and nothing beyond that.
What dimensions does Goku have, as of Super, that Granolah doesn't have? I'm not saying Granolah is necessarily written well. I'm just saying he's pretty par for the course as characters go.

Gas? Yeah I agree he's a lot like a Toei villain so far.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:11 am

TKA wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:57 am Nothing points to him having a special grudge with Granolah that doesn't extend to every impediment in their way.
Gas is insecure. We've learned this originated with Bardock. That insecurity was fueled when Elec took on Granolah. Gas was eager to take down Granolah early in the arc, and his feelings were further explained in the most recent chapter. Gas believes he is capable, but his failures have lead Elec to doubt his abilities. Gas can't prove himself against Bardock, but he can assure his family that Granolah - despite being the previous "strongest in the universe" - is no longer needed. Maybe there'll be more, and obviously he won't be as fleshed out as, say, Vegeta, but that's not nothing.
TKA wrote:As for Granolah, I think you're conflating dimensions with depth. Vegeta is a character with both, as is Goku. Granolah only has depth. There's nothing else to him other than he is angry and wants revenge. What are his hobbies? What are the things that make him have a good time? What are his thoughts on Palestine and Israel?
What about Granolah's relationships with Monaito, Oatmeel, Vegeta, and Goku? Why do we need to know about his hobbies specifically, and how would that improve the story? I think Granolah is sufficiently sympathetic as is, and he's not just rage and revenge. There's not a set formula that needs to be followed. Even so, how about this: he likes to check in with the Cerealians and eat breakfast with his adoptive father. He finds purpose in bounty hunting. He's a pretty solemn guy, and given his history, it's understandable.

I could come up with an answer for this, but let's not go there...
TKA wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:57 amHe's a Toei villain so far.
fleahop wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:59 am Gas? Yeah I agree he's a lot like a Toei villain so far.
I think this criticism throughout the past two arcs, as utilized, has been fairly lazy and largely inapplicable. I agree that Toei villains are often anti-Toriyama, low quality trash (that sometimes have good visual designs). I think we should leave the DBZ movies to Heroes and criticize things on their own merit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:43 am

batistabus wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:11 am Gas is insecure. We've learned this originated with Bardock. That insecurity was fueled when Elec took on Granolah.
I feel like this isn't communicated strongly enough. Not once has Elec, who is supposed to be duplicitous, stated or even have a thought bubble saying Gas is weak, or a disappointment in any way. It also doesn't help that Gas only has 2 expressions. It also doesn't help that the point of trauma for Gas is being hidden from us before he even starts fighting.

I've been saying for months that the kernels for a good story are there. Toyotaro just isn't presenting or structuring the story well. I don't like to be a backseat writer, but in this instance, knowing anything about the villains we're supposed to be invested in would've gone a long way to making this feel like more than the typical Toei movie where a villain shows up and they have a light show until the movie ends. I don't care about Gas because the story has not given me a reason to. This extends to all the Heeters.
What about Granolah's relationships with Monaito, Oatmeel, Vegeta, and Goku? Why do we need to know about his hobbies specifically, and how would that improve the story? I think Granolah is sufficiently sympathetic as is, and he's not just rage and revenge. There's not a set formula that needs to be followed. Even so, how about this: he likes to check in with the Cerealians and eat breakfast with his adoptive father. He finds purpose in bounty hunting. He's a pretty solemn guy, and given his history, it's understandable.
The hobbies was an example.

But yes, generally knowing more about what makes characters tick enhances the story being told. We didn't need 16 playing with little woodland critters, but because the story kept showing him doing it, when he showed up to help Gohan and talked about loving the Earth and its life, the previous bits made it make sense, even though these two characters have literally never interacted beforehand.

I would strongly disagree about Granolah being sympathetic. I don't care about him because his character is all over the place. If he was so dead-set on revenge, just snipe Goku and Vegeta as soon as they land on the planet instead of wasting three chapters toying with them and then every couple of pages going "Now I'm going to actually get serious". For this character to work, you need to write him differently than the typical trope-heavy Dragonball fight.

Giving him a sad backstory doesn't make me care. That isn't enough anymore since we have a cast that went through the exact same traumas he did, and more. Do something to make him endearing, or interesting. Wanting revenge is not those things. It's such a passe trope that in the January 1990 issue of Weekly Shonen Jump where Dodoria revealed what really happened to Planet Vegeta, Toriyama curbed expectations by having Vegeta say he doesn't care about getting revenge. We're now 31 years removed from that and Toyotaro is playing that trope straight. This is amateur hour.

The last characters to go on revenge quests are Frieza in Res F and Zamas, and BOTH were portrayed as childish and idiotic for devoting themselves to that. Now I'm supposed to take this seriously and empathize? Hard pass.
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fleahop wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:59 am I think this criticism throughout the past two arcs, as utilized, has been fairly lazy and largely inapplicable. I agree that Toei villains are often anti-Toriyama, low quality trash (that sometimes have good visual designs).
I'll admit I use this shorthand a lot for villains or characters I find overly simplistic, one-note or boring. It's because I've had nothing but Toei villains as new dragonball content since the series ended. As far as I'm concerned, with that many of them it should be fairly obvious to a competent writer how to NOT do those. Toyotaro is a competent writer, and Granolah certainly has more to him than the typical Toei fare, but Gas doesn't.

I would like to add though that in all the Toyotaro-original stuff, he's yet to make a character as interesting or as fun as Xenoverse 1's Demigra (I'm not accounting for any of the Dragonball Heroes shit).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragmobot12 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:57 am

Do you think there's any chance Granolah could be our new Baby in Dragon Ball Super? And that this whole arc is basically his "villain origin story"?

My friends and I have been speculating about this since the beginning of this arc, and we're still speculating because we still don't know who Oatmeel really is. Okay, we know he's an AI, but why is Granolah the only one with the goggle?
Why didn't the other Cerealians have goggles like that? And by the way, they stated that Granolah is the only survivor, but Oatmeel is the name of a Cerealien.

We even found a similarity between the material of Granolah's goggle lens, in the manga it's the same color as the OG-73-i's eyes, so we assumed it could be of the same material, also Oatmeel knew all the other OG-73 names, but could not identify Goku and Vegeta, although their IDs might be already listed in Galactic Patrol.


There's also an interesting catch, OG-73-i, OG's initials, match Oatmeel and Granolah's names, a coincidence do you think? I think it's best to just wait and see, but to me it's a great chance that their merger in the future is quite possible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:06 pm

Dragmobot12 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:57 am Do you think there's any chance Granolah could be our new Baby in Dragon Ball Super? And that this whole arc is basically his "villain origin story"?
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No way in hell Granolah is going down that villain path anymore, not with Vegeta's approach to him in the ending of this chapter. It's veeeeeeery clearly gonna be a positive arc from here on out.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragmobot12 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:16 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:06 pm
Dragmobot12 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:57 am Do you think there's any chance Granolah could be our new Baby in Dragon Ball Super? And that this whole arc is basically his "villain origin story"?
Image
No way in hell Granolah is going down that villain path anymore, not with Vegeta's approach to him in the ending of this chapter. It's veeeeeeery clearly gonna be a positive arc from here on out.
Well, maybe not a villain, we could be getting a good version of Baby or an Anti-Villain, if that's the case.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:19 pm

OG-73-i was a MacGuffin to help the Heeters locate Zuno, with nothing particularly implying he'd play a different role. He was arguably a plot device in his own introductory arc, and is such a blank "character" that he makes Gas look more interesting in comparison.

I'm all for a good swerve, but that ain't good. Giving him some bigger presence now adds nothing to the story.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragmobot12 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:44 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:19 pm OG-73-i was a MacGuffin to help the Heeters locate Zuno, with nothing particularly implying he'd play a different role. He was arguably a plot device in his own introductory arc, and is such a blank "character" that he makes Gas look more interesting in comparison.

I'm all for a good swerve, but that ain't good. Giving him some bigger presence now adds nothing to the story.
Toyotaro himself has stated that Oatmeal will come into play later, but he doesn't even have a physical body, as far as we know. There's something about him that ties OG-73 to this. So I'm sticking with the New Baby theory for now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:03 pm

This is some fanfiction YouTube-y clickbait theorycrafting.

The closest thing to Baby in Super is Zamas with his whole Goku Black thing. It’s just not as blatant a redo as the typical Dragonball fan is used to.

Dunno why anyone would want another retread of that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:27 pm

TKA wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:43 am I feel like this isn't communicated strongly enough. Not once has Elec, who is supposed to be duplicitous, stated or even have a thought bubble saying Gas is weak, or a disappointment in any way. It also doesn't help that Gas only has 2 expressions. It also doesn't help that the point of trauma for Gas is being hidden from us before he even starts fighting.
I think it has been shown. Elec doesn't think Gas is a weakling; he finds Gas' relative strength and commitment useful. He just isn't as confident in Gas' strength as Gas is. Gas wants to handle things on his own, but Elec keeps reeling him back. Regarding Granolah, before the wish, Gas was certainly stronger. Elec's decision to work with Granolah isn't necessarily a result of Gas' failure in the Bardock incident, but Gas seems to think that's the reason. "I provide enough muscle for the Heeters. You are not needed."

Aside from that, I'll agree that I haven't cared about Gas, but the most recent chapter changed that (somewhat), and I feel better about the character in retrospect.
TKA wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:43 am I would strongly disagree about Granolah being sympathetic. I don't care about him because his character is all over the place. If he was so dead-set on revenge, just snipe Goku and Vegeta as soon as they land on the planet instead of wasting three chapters toying with them and then every couple of pages going "Now I'm going to actually get serious". For this character to work, you need to write him differently than the typical trope-heavy Dragonball fight.

Giving him a sad backstory doesn't make me care. That isn't enough anymore since we have a cast that went through the exact same traumas he did, and more. Do something to make him endearing, or interesting. Wanting revenge is not those things. It's such a passe trope that in the January 1990 issue of Weekly Shonen Jump where Dodoria revealed what really happened to Planet Vegeta, Toriyama curbed expectations by having Vegeta say he doesn't care about getting revenge. We're now 31 years removed from that and Toyotaro is playing that trope straight. This is amateur hour.
Granolah did try to just snipe them when they arrived on the planet, and he nearly succeeded. Goku was able to bounce back because of a senzu. After that point, and based on the words/actions of the Saiyans, his conscience (both internal and through Oatmeel) was holding him back.

I agree Vegeta's reaction is more interesting and unique, but that's besides the point. Vegeta only cared about himself, while Granolah is only a loner because of his trauma. Playing it straight is fine in the context of exploring the echoes of Freeza's empire, and only through the Dragon Balls are we able to see someone like this fighting back.
TKA wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:43 amThe last characters to go on revenge quests are Frieza in Res F and Zamas, and BOTH were portrayed as childish and idiotic for devoting themselves to that. Now I'm supposed to take this seriously and empathize? Hard pass.
Granolah is perhaps the most childish and idiotic of the three. I find him sympathetic because of his history, his internal conflict, and his outward breakdowns. "I just want it to end! I need this to be over!!"
Dragmobot12 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:44 pm Toyotaro himself has stated that Oatmeal will come into play later, but he doesn't even have a physical body, as far as we know. There's something about him that ties OG-73 to this. So I'm sticking with the New Baby theory for now.
I'm fairly sure this arc was pitched as a Toriyamafied take on the premise of the Baby arc, and therefore it's become something quite different. I agree with Mr Baggins, and I've said it myself, that Seven-three has already served a significant purpose.

Other than that, Seven-three has Baby's eyes, but I think that's just Toyo taking character design inspiration.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:46 pm

I'm also with batistabus Re: Granolah. Toriyama and Toyotaro aren't much for internal dialogue, so Oatmeel comes in to metaphorically reflect Granolah's conscience that he so desperately wants to bury; you can see it in his reactions, too. It's not Vegeta by himself that I find compelling here, but rather how his conflict with Granolah explores and furthers the latter's character. Granolah has the dimensions and the depth to serve the broader narrative -- I just wish these moments were a little more compact than they have been. Everything feels slowed thus far.

But that's also why I don't care for Gas. He doesn't have that same kind of relationship with the guest character, and it's not his story. This arc has given me no reason to care about his family issues or whatever.

While I'm not totally on board with Dragon Ball playing the shonen revenge tropes so straight, especially given how it tends to subvert this kind of stuff, I agree it does work in the context of Freeza's lasting impact on the galaxy. Definitely a more interesting arc idea to me than the usual "Goku and Vegeta visit Planet Sadala" pitches you get from Super's internet fandom.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:31 pm

Internal dialogue is only the most blunt way to do it. Of the dozens of pages devoted to pointless fighting, more could've been done to characterize Elec's relationship with Gas, and give Granolah anything that doesn't make him just a cookie cutter "I need my revenge, but also I have a little softness in me so the audience can attach."

To use yet another example: this is how Trunks was introduced. He was hypercompetent, he had a cool sword, and did all the typical "badass" things these types of characters do. And then his next appearance showed he was actually wrong in a few places, that some characters are now stronger than him... and he spent the rest of the arc being less perfect than his introduction.

Now Granolah and Trunks (at his introduction) are not the same character, but they do live in that space of the "stoic badass". Toriyama then knew that was cliched and took steps to address it. This is 30 years later. Granolah has had more page time than Trunks did and he's still just this. I don't care about him, and the shining star of this arc has been Vegeta; everything else has been painfully mid.

I have high expectations for what I consider good in Dragonball. At the same time, I've seen how low this franchise can go, so I have not called this or the Moro stuff bad; by the standards of what's around them they aren't. But this is all well below par for what Toyotaro has done before and definitely for what Toriyama did before.

Go back to overstuffing the pages with dialogue and characterization if you must. These protracted battle scenes are tedious and add nothing.
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