Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Desassina » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:14 am

In both Dragon Ball and the DBS manga or anime, time travellers do not lead the events up to the point when the conditions are met for their existence (like a loop), but it's because they exist in the present that their changes have to create the historical background from which they departed (akin to a binary search tree). Since the future doesn't happen before the past, and given that it's easier to follow the events in the story without backtracking, here's how each and every changing event split time:
  1. Trunks arrived and killed Freeza and King Cold, so there must be a time branching out when he did not kill them, and Trunks departs to the future of that time. His time machine is linked to that future and so is this future linked to the mainline.
  2. Cell showed up and made a few revelations that led Trunks to kill baby Cell in the lab, which means that there must be a time branching out when Cell did not show up and his baby form wasn't killed, so Trunks is allowed to depart without knowing about him.
  3. Goku Black showed up and led Beerus to kill Zamasu through their investigation, so there must be a time when Beerus did not kill Zamasu due to the fact that Goku Black did not show up, and that allows him to use the time ring to arrive at Trunks's future and get stuck there.

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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Dreamer » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:50 pm

In the original DBZ, we know there are four timelines: Cell's, Future Trunks, Unseen and Main timelines. In DBS, we know two new timelines were created with Future Trunk's timeline erased: New Main Present and (New) Future Trunks timelines (Two Trunks and Mai's lives in this timeline).

My only question is, by following Toyotaro's version, it was said that the first time traveller was from U12, right? So, already there are two Timelines existing before Future Trunks and Cell started messing with history.

(A) So shouldn't there be more duplicates of timelines already, like 8 timelines before DBS?
(B) Or are we to assume that Cell's timeline is the original (where the first time traveller (U12) is from), and the Future Trunks (that we know) timeline that U12 created/visited?

What is everyone else's opinion?
I would like to hear cipher_-'s opinion on this too

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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:53 am

The paradox in the anime completely flies in the face of DB's already established time travel logic - we already know Trunks going back to a timeline he'd already traveled to doesn't split the timeline, and Zamasu flies off the slippery slope after meeting Goku...who was there to investigate him after Trunks returned! The manga makes more sense, where Goku never met Zamasu and it was watching Godtube that made Zamasu lose his marbles; in the future of the "main timeline" he travels to Trunks' timeline with the time ring and that makes him omnipresent. It's still sort of messy, but doesn't have the cute parodox bullshit that I always dislike.
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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Desassina » Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:29 am

The guides didn't hold before Super because they got four timelines corrected into three in the update and Super helped clarify which rules Toriyama goes by.

Whis stated very clearly that it was Beerus's destruction of Zamasu that created the alternate scenario from which Goku Black came to be in spite of the "paradox".

There were four time rings in that box at Gowasu's, two (probably) from Z and another two from Super, one of them belonging to the other universe's time traveller.

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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Grimlock » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:46 am

I agree. I think it makes sense to assume that the timeline Trunks (who got killed) went to "merged" with the present one (especially taking into consideration such possibility thanks to what Kaioshin of Time says in Xenoverse 2), thus not needing a Time Ring to access it.

Before:

1 - Original timeline.
2 - Future timeline.
3 - Present timeline.
4 - "Unseen timeline".

Then:

1 - Original timeline.
2 - Future timeline.
3 - Present Timeline ("unseen timeline" merged with this one).
4 - Neo future timeline (created by Beerus).
5 - Timeline created by the good/bad samaritan from Universe 12.

This would explain why we ended up with five Time Rings by the end of it. However, I just remembered that in the manga, when Zeno erases the future timeline, its Time Ring also vanished, so we're down to four timelines, even though there are five Time Rings (do five Time Rings appear in the manga too?). So I guess there's that to consider.
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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Cipher » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:11 pm

Dreamer wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:50 pm In the original DBZ, we know there are four timelines: Cell's, Future Trunks, Unseen and Main timelines. In DBS, we know two new timelines were created with Future Trunk's timeline erased: New Main Present and (New) Future Trunks timelines (Two Trunks and Mai's lives in this timeline).

My only question is, by following Toyotaro's version, it was said that the first time traveller was from U12, right? So, already there are two Timelines existing before Future Trunks and Cell started messing with history.

(A) So shouldn't there be more duplicates of timelines already, like 8 timelines before DBS?
(B) Or are we to assume that Cell's timeline is the original (where the first time traveller (U12) is from), and the Future Trunks (that we know) timeline that U12 created/visited?

What is everyone else's opinion?
I would like to hear cipher_-'s opinion on this too
DB and DBS manga timelines: (Not even touching the DBS anime's, although I think it intends to get things into a similar alignment. It just presents it all very sloppily):

There are at least seven.

1. Unaltered timeline (Pre-U12 time-traveler) - If you believe the U12 time travel had no repercussions that would have affected what Trunks and Cell do in U7 millennia later, everything below is likely technically doubled, for a total of thirteen timelines. But since we don't know anything about it, you can also just assume it somehow did/that U7 might look very different in this unaltered branch, leaving just the seven we know (and which conveniently align with the visual number of Time Rings in the manga).

2. Cell's timeline - Eons after the first split caused by the time traveler in U12, we get the first alternate timeline we know from the manga--the one Cell comes from. The androids run amok, and Trunks travels back in time and finds a way to defeat them. Trunks is then killed by Cell, who uses the time machine to go back to a time before the androids are destroyed.

3. The "unseen" timeline - The timeline created by Trunks' time travel alone. Never directly referenced or depicted in any medium, but has to exist for the Trunks killed by Cell to already have gone back into the past. What happens here is a mystery, but most assume Trunks finds the blueprints for the androids there, and uses it to stop them without being strong enough to survive his encounter with Cell.

4. Goku Black's timeline - The timeline created by Cell's time travel. By traveling back further into history, after Trunks has already made one trip back, Cell winds up creating yet another new split, and duplicating the time-traveling Trunks with it. (This becomes "our" Trunks; the one who will survive his encounter with Cell as a result of all the new changes to history.) The Cell Games happen, the rest of DB and most of Super happen, but Zamazu is able to successfully steal Goku's body and use a parallel Time Ring to retreat to Trunks' timeline (below).

5. Trunks' timeline - The timeline created when the new Trunks split off by Cell's time travel returns to his own era. He now has new experiences, with the biggest difference this time around being that he's eventually strong enough to kill both the androids and Cell on his own. Trunks stops Bobbidi and Dabra, is terrorized by Black and Zamasu, and retreats to the past era of Timeline 4 one more time for help. Later destroyed by Zeno.

6. The main timeline - Trunks' trip back to seek help for Black unwittingly places him in a position to alter Black's own past, creating another split in history. Logically, things start deviating from Black's timeline as soon as Trunks shows up again, but official material has tended to attribute this split's creation to Beerus' killing of Zamasu specifically. Whatever, I suppose, as that's the big moment of deviation, but... At any rate, this is the timeline where the rest of DBS as we know it happens.

7. The double Trunks timeline - Trunks and Mai resolve to take a trip back to an earlier point in the destroyed Timeline 5 to prevent the Kaioshin's death and warn Beerus of Black's impending attack before it can happen, preventing his terror and its eventual destruction. Trunks and Mai settle here along with their existing counterparts.

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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Mr Baggins » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:08 pm

Cipher summarized it perfectly and presented everything in a way that's easily understandable and digestible. Couldn't have said it better. It's messy in the manga, but it (mostly) makes sense.

As much as I would have liked the anime to just follow what the manga did, it screws things up badly. It tries to present Black's creation as resulting from a time loop rather than the split-timeline mechanics of the original series, but doesn't even fully adhere to it in a way that makes sense. To copypaste one of my early posts:

Beerus might be a god, but to interfere with a time paradox in that way is incomprehensible when Zamasu's actions in the first place sprung partly from Beerus's own agency. Either Beerus fails to kill Zamasu, who goes on to become Black, or Black never comes into fruition; there shouldn't be any logical in-betweens here. Like many things in the DBS anime, it's yet another element that kinda just takes me out of it.
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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Cipher » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:29 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:08 pm As much as I would have liked the anime to just follow what the manga did, it screws things up badly. It tries to present Black's creation as resulting from a time loop rather than the split-timeline mechanics of the original series, but doesn't even fully adhere to it in a way that makes sense. To copypaste one of my early posts:

Beerus might be a god, but to interfere with a time paradox in that way is incomprehensible when Zamasu's actions in the first place sprung partly from Beerus's own agency. Either Beerus fails to kill Zamasu, who goes on to become Black, or Black never comes into fruition; there shouldn't be any logical in-betweens here. Like many things in the DBS anime, it's yet another element that kinda just takes me out of it.
You just have to headcanon that Goku and Zamasu originally (as in, pre-Trunks' return) sparred under different circumstances. Which ... really requires stretching the presentation, as if I recall, the scene that contains reference to Black having sparred Goku reuses footage from their sparring match during Beerus' investigation.

You can make it work, but it's sloppy, and the manga benefits from simply tying Zamasu's knowledge of Goku to the U6-U7 tournament footage. Any loop readings don't work for the reasons you stated.

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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by TobyS » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:02 am

Cipher wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:11 pm
Dreamer wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:50 pm In the original DBZ, we know there are four timelines: Cell's, Future Trunks, Unseen and Main timelines. In DBS, we know two new timelines were created with Future Trunk's timeline erased: New Main Present and (New) Future Trunks timelines (Two Trunks and Mai's lives in this timeline).

My only question is, by following Toyotaro's version, it was said that the first time traveller was from U12, right? So, already there are two Timelines existing before Future Trunks and Cell started messing with history.

(A) So shouldn't there be more duplicates of timelines already, like 8 timelines before DBS?
(B) Or are we to assume that Cell's timeline is the original (where the first time traveller (U12) is from), and the Future Trunks (that we know) timeline that U12 created/visited?

What is everyone else's opinion?
I would like to hear cipher_-'s opinion on this too
DB and DBS manga timelines: (Not even touching the DBS anime's, although I think it intends to get things into a similar alignment. It just presents it all very sloppily):

There are at least seven.

1. Unaltered timeline (Pre-U12 time-traveler) - If you believe the U12 time travel had no repercussions that would have affected what Trunks and Cell do in U7 millennia later, everything below is likely technically doubled, for a total of thirteen timelines. But since we don't know anything about it, you can also just assume it somehow did/that U7 might look very different in this unaltered branch, leaving just the seven we know (and which conveniently align with the visual number of Time Rings in the manga).

2. Cell's timeline - Eons after the first split caused by the time traveler in U12, we get the first alternate timeline we know from the manga--the one Cell comes from. The androids run amok, and Trunks travels back in time and finds a way to defeat them. Trunks is then killed by Cell, who uses the time machine to go back to a time before the androids are destroyed.

3. The "unseen" timeline - The timeline created by Trunks' time travel alone. Never directly referenced or depicted in any medium, but has to exist for the Trunks killed by Cell to already have gone back into the past. What happens here is a mystery, but most assume Trunks finds the blueprints for the androids there, and uses it to stop them without being strong enough to survive his encounter with Cell.

4. Goku Black's timeline - The timeline created by Cell's time travel. By traveling back further into history, after Trunks has already made one trip back, Cell winds up creating yet another new split, and duplicating the time-traveling Trunks with it. (This becomes "our" Trunks; the one who will survive his encounter with Cell as a result of all the new changes to history.) The Cell Games happen, the rest of DB and most of Super happen, but Zamazu is able to successfully steal Goku's body and use a parallel Time Ring to retreat to Trunks' timeline (below).

5. Trunks' timeline - The timeline created when the new Trunks split off by Cell's time travel returns to his own era. He now has new experiences, with the biggest difference this time around being that he's eventually strong enough to kill both the androids and Cell on his own. Trunks stops Bobbidi and Dabra, is terrorized by Black and Zamasu, and retreats to the past era of Timeline 4 one more time for help. Later destroyed by Zeno.

6. The main timeline - Trunks' trip back to seek help for Black unwittingly places him in a position to alter Black's own past, creating another split in history. Logically, things start deviating from Black's timeline as soon as Trunks shows up again, but official material has tended to attribute this split's creation to Beerus' killing of Zamasu specifically. Whatever, I suppose, as that's the big moment of deviation, but... At any rate, this is the timeline where the rest of DBS as we know it happens.

7. The double Trunks timeline - Trunks and Mai resolve to take a trip back to an earlier point in the destroyed Timeline 5 to prevent the Kaioshin's death and warn Beerus of Black's impending attack before it can happen, preventing his terror and its eventual destruction. Trunks and Mai settle here along with their existing counterparts.
Ciphers post is perfect but I'd probably use strikethrough text to denote that Trunks timeline is erased and I think based on the number of time rings isn't Goku Blacks timeline erased too? Like it was actually changed rather than split, probably due to the timerings being mixed with the machine travel?
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He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:02 pm

Goku Black and Zamasu went to Future Trunks timeline seeing that Beerus and Shin are dead. When Future Trunks said, "Many lives were lost on that day" in the anime, they implied that Shin and Kibito died from Dabra.
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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by TobyS » Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:00 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:05 am
dbgtFO wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:40 pmToyotaro was without a doubt on the right track with having time happening concurrently between timelines (...) no matter how much Grimlock objects,
Toyotaro contradicts the timeskip in the Dragon Ball manga by doing that. While in the present three years passes, eight months passes in the future. If time operated the same among timelines, three years should have passed in the future too. Also, if three years had passed in the future too, then Trunks should still have come from twenty years in the future as it was originally, not seventeen, as it is the case.

Don't mind my objections, mind the actual problems and contradictions Toriyama and Toyotaro themselves come up with.
Yuji wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:40 pmWhat is exactly a big enough change to warrant a new time-line?
No way to know exactly. In both futures, the original and the one Trunks comes from, it's Goku who defeats King Cold and Freeza. No Trunks arrived in those timelines.

So if you ask me, I would say Cell managing to time travel as well as Trunks finding out about Cell's time machine are the two changes that warrant a new timeline. The former affects the present, it's the first and only Cell that manages to time travel. The latter actually affects the future. Trunks having knowledge of Cell and his time machine is what prevents him from being killed.
That's not true, it's a vague line, it was going to take 8 months to refuel the time machine. Read it again.

We all assumed he could go back to the android arrival as soon as he had fuel, and this would help explain Vegeta overtaking him in power.

But it's never stated as such, and Super reveals he didn't by way of saying it has to maintain the same differential.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by TobyS » Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:05 pm

Dreamer wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:50 pm In the original DBZ, we know there are four timelines: Cell's, Future Trunks, Unseen and Main timelines. In DBS, we know two new timelines were created with Future Trunk's timeline erased: New Main Present and (New) Future Trunks timelines (Two Trunks and Mai's lives in this timeline).

My only question is, by following Toyotaro's version, it was said that the first time traveller was from U12, right? So, already there are two Timelines existing before Future Trunks and Cell started messing with history.

(A) So shouldn't there be more duplicates of timelines already, like 8 timelines before DBS?
(B) Or are we to assume that Cell's timeline is the original (where the first time traveller (U12) is from), and the Future Trunks (that we know) timeline that U12 created/visited?

What is everyone else's opinion?
I would like to hear cipher_-'s opinion on this too
You're sorta correct, it's not an oversight. The obvious explanation is whatever changed in the U12-guy's timeline prevented any of the Trunks/Cell time travel or DB history in general.

My headcanon is a GT'esque timeline was created, and that is where the Xenos come from and where the saiyans evolutionary history changed to allow SS4 to occur and not being able to harnass god ki.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Grimlock » Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:19 am

TobyS wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:00 pmThat's not true, it's a vague line, it was going to take 8 months to refuel the time machine. Read it again.

We all assumed he could go back to the android arrival as soon as he had fuel, and this would help explain Vegeta overtaking him in power.

But it's never stated as such, and Super reveals he didn't by way of saying it has to maintain the same differential.
You could say that Trunks didn't make the second trip as soon as he recharged the Time Machine, yes, but it matters little in the grand scheme of things. The longer Trunks stays in his timeline, the more things make less sense. By that point, time wasn't operating the same between timelines already. So if Trunks remained too long there and, say, he traveled from AGE 786, who knows how long passed in the present. Not only that, the other events surrounding this one would be affected (it would affect even Future Trunks saga. See spoiler tag for more details if you're interested).
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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by TobyS » Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:47 am

Grimlock wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:19 am
TobyS wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:00 pmThat's not true, it's a vague line, it was going to take 8 months to refuel the time machine. Read it again.

We all assumed he could go back to the android arrival as soon as he had fuel, and this would help explain Vegeta overtaking him in power.

But it's never stated as such, and Super reveals he didn't by way of saying it has to maintain the same differential.
You could say that Trunks didn't make the second trip as soon as he recharged the Time Machine, yes, but it matters little in the grand scheme of things. The longer Trunks stays in his timeline, the more things make less sense. By that point, time wasn't operating the same between timelines already. So if Trunks remained too long there and, say, he traveled from AGE 786, who knows how long passed in the present. Not only that, the other events surrounding this one would be affected (it would affect even Future Trunks saga. See spoiler tag for more details if you're interested).
I don't have those mangas with me and I don't know where you are getting those numbers from but regarding cell that part is easy. He was eating enough of the diminished human population to get stronger while avoiding the androids then for the rest of that time he was actively looking for the androids not realising they are gone.

There's nothing on panel and in universe. meaning these 20/17 disparities are an issue right? It's just them making mistakes with the numbers in guide books and narration.

It's just like trunks saying 19 and 20 the first time.
Nothing actually stops it being 17 or 20 every time.

Also you could also headcanon that similar to the issue where “the link is weakening this will be our last trip” that pilaf fixed you can imagine the 17 number is the first symptom of that. “we try anything other than 17 we are getting an error message or ui crashes, just leave it at 17” haha
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline

Post by Grimlock » Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:18 am

"Those numbers" come from this manga statement. Once Trunks says it, you can pretty much know when all the events take place.

Image
TobyS wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:47 amregarding cell that part is easy. He was eating enough of the diminished human population to get stronger while avoiding the androids then for the rest of that time he was actively looking for the androids not realising they are gone.
You say it's easy but then comes up with something that contradicts the series. Yes, Cell does take his time "absorbing" human energy and looking for the androids, but it's not that long. In the timeline where Cell kills Trunks, it's AGE 788. Which means he didn't spend two years "absorbing" human energy or looking for the androids. In the timeline where Trunks kills Cell, it's still AGE 788. Which means he didn't spend two years "absorbing" human energy or looking for the androids.

We have two timelines where Cell didn't take a lot of time "absorbing" human energy or looking for the androids, so this is not even up for consideration. Trunks can't kill Cell two years after his completion. It must be in the same year.
TobyS wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:47 ammeaning these 20/17 disparities are an issue right? It's just them making mistakes with the numbers in guide books and narration.
Or them acknowledging the difference. I'm pretty sure Trunks now comes from seventeen years instead of twenty years because in the present, three years pass, while in the future, eight months pass. Which naturally establishes that time doesn't operate the same way between timelines.
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