Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
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Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
I feel like there is a big problem in the logic of Goku Black being from the original present timeline and going to Future Trunks' timeline prompting Future Trunks to flee to the present timeline.
Last edited by Hulk10 on Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
I have my issues with the Future Trunks arc, and yeah the time travelling shenanigans really do get a bit much (especially for db) but I don't see a hole in the logic.
So original timeline happens, Trunks does his thing, new timeline appears that we follow.
That timeline we follow continues and in its future Goku and Zamas switch bodies before "Goku Black" goes to Trunk's timeline.
Trunks then goes back in time AGAIN and changes events AGAIN creating yet another timeline where Zamas is hakai'd.
This doesn't undo what's already been done though, as Zamas and Goku Black exist in the future already and neither are from that timeline technically.
So it kinda works out with how it's already been established to work in the past.
So original timeline happens, Trunks does his thing, new timeline appears that we follow.
That timeline we follow continues and in its future Goku and Zamas switch bodies before "Goku Black" goes to Trunk's timeline.
Trunks then goes back in time AGAIN and changes events AGAIN creating yet another timeline where Zamas is hakai'd.
This doesn't undo what's already been done though, as Zamas and Goku Black exist in the future already and neither are from that timeline technically.
So it kinda works out with how it's already been established to work in the past.
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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
There's no plot hole.
Goku Black's timeline was created from Beerus erasing the Present Zamasu, which was dictated by History. This led to a timeline where Beerus DIDN'T destroy Present Zamasu, where Zamasu was able to kill Gowasu, become Supreme Kai, and put his Plan in motion. That is Goku Black's timeline and that incarnation of Present Zamasu would go on to become Goku Black.
Goku Black then used a Time Ring, an artifact that can be used only by Supreme Kais, to see all potential alternate universes in the Time-Space Continuum, and travel to the timeline of Future Trunks.
All is connected, all is explained, all makes sense.
Anyway Toei explains everything, just look at this and you'll see that it all makes sense:
Goku Black's timeline was created from Beerus erasing the Present Zamasu, which was dictated by History. This led to a timeline where Beerus DIDN'T destroy Present Zamasu, where Zamasu was able to kill Gowasu, become Supreme Kai, and put his Plan in motion. That is Goku Black's timeline and that incarnation of Present Zamasu would go on to become Goku Black.
Goku Black then used a Time Ring, an artifact that can be used only by Supreme Kais, to see all potential alternate universes in the Time-Space Continuum, and travel to the timeline of Future Trunks.
All is connected, all is explained, all makes sense.
Anyway Toei explains everything, just look at this and you'll see that it all makes sense:
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
It's a time loop in the anime and time loops are supposed to be inherently paradoxical. It depends on whether or not you consider if Super's time travel fits with the established time travel of the original series.
In the manga, the progression follows more logically the original series but where it gets muddied is the insistence in both versions in having Beerus' hakai as the point where the time-line splits instead of the obvious conclusion that it was Trunks going back that split the time-line.
In the manga, the progression follows more logically the original series but where it gets muddied is the insistence in both versions in having Beerus' hakai as the point where the time-line splits instead of the obvious conclusion that it was Trunks going back that split the time-line.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
I think it makes sense, as far as we are able to understand. The only two issues is the wasted opportunity for Goku Black to be Zamasu from the actual original timeline (the one Cell comes from), and that in the manga, "one day passes in the present, one day passes in the future", which is not true.
What exactly does Trunks change by arriving in the present? He arrived in a timeline that was already altered. Unless, of course, I'm missing someone specifically saying "every time someone travels, a new timeline is created" and that it is indeed supposed to have six Time Rings, all caused by each time someone time traveled but they forgot to show us one more.
Mind to explain why is that "obvious"? So far, all the explanations and statements imply the split only happens in the first action. Not each time someone travels, a split happens. Otherwise there would be more Time Rings, wouldnt it? First we have Cell (who is the one responsible for the split, he traveled and arrived in the present before Trunks). Then we have Trunks traveling thrice. Then we have Beerus erasing Zamasu, which does cause a split, because that wasn't meant to happen in the first place. It was the first time it happened. Then we have Universe 12's time traveller (if I remember correctly). I count six Time Rings here but there are only five green ones (I assume the silver one works differently, hence the different color).Yuji wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:36 amIn the manga, the progression follows more logically the original series but where it gets muddied is the insistence in both versions in having Beerus' hakai as the point where the time-line splits instead of the obvious conclusion that it was Trunks going back that split the time-line.
What exactly does Trunks change by arriving in the present? He arrived in a timeline that was already altered. Unless, of course, I'm missing someone specifically saying "every time someone travels, a new timeline is created" and that it is indeed supposed to have six Time Rings, all caused by each time someone time traveled but they forgot to show us one more.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
Trunks just going back when he wasn't originally there is inherently different. Even if he just looked around and went home. That's what we assumed for years and is logical out of universe. Trunks being there when he wasn't before is a paradox. (A contradiction between the two timelines histories)Grimlock wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:27 am I think it makes sense, as far as we are able to understand. The only two issues is the wasted opportunity for Goku Black to be Zamasu from the actual original timeline (the one Cell comes from), and that in the manga, "one day passes in the present, one day passes in the future", which is not true.
Mind to explain why is that "obvious"? So far, all the explanations and statements imply the split only happens in the first action. Not each time someone travels, a split happens. Otherwise there would be more Time Rings, wouldnt it? First we have Cell (who is the one responsible for the split, he traveled and arrived in the present before Trunks). Then we have Trunks traveling thrice. Then we have Beerus erasing Zamasu, which does cause a split, because that wasn't meant to happen in the first place. It was the first time it happened. Then we have Universe 12's time traveller (if I remember correctly). I count six Time Rings here but there are only five green ones (I assume the silver one works differently, hence the different color).Yuji wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:36 amIn the manga, the progression follows more logically the original series but where it gets muddied is the insistence in both versions in having Beerus' hakai as the point where the time-line splits instead of the obvious conclusion that it was Trunks going back that split the time-line.
What exactly does Trunks change by arriving in the present? He arrived in a timeline that was already altered (by Cell). Unless, of course, I'm missing someone specifically saying "every time someone travels, a new timeline is created" and that it is indeed supposed to have six Time Rings, but they forgot to show us one more.
Super manga doesn't contradict this, but it just kinda raises the standard on what constitutes a “big enough” paradox to split the timeline. So it was probably like killing Freeza or giving the heart meds and warning about the androids that split it the first time.
Once a links established he can make return trips without splitting regardless of what he does as long as he doesn't change the time machines settings.
It makes sense with what we have seen because they only used time travel to do deliberately big things.
Probably by sheer coincidence this fits with expanded universe stuff. The time patrol just having to make events follow “close enough” for the timeline to fix itself or Chronoa to fix this remotely.
I like to think of it like a rubber strap. If you stretch it a bit it wil ping back but pull too hard and it snaps in two.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
The thing is, Trunks is there originally. The Trunks who was killed by Cell had already made the same trips to the past. Trunks got killed in AGE 788, when he intends to return to the present to let people know he destroyed the androids. The difference is that that Trunks didn't find Cell's time machine in the timeline he went to. And so he didn't know about Cell, and so he got killed.TobyS wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:06 amTrunks just going back when he wasn't originally there is inherently different. Even if he just looked around and went home. That's what we assumed for years and is logical out of universe. Trunks being there when he wasn't before is a paradox. (A contradiction between the two timelines histories)
Super manga doesn't contradict this, but it just kinda raises the standard on what constitutes a “big enough” paradox to split the timeline. So it was probably like killing Freeza or giving the heart meds and warning about the androids that split it the first time.
So I think the split is thanks to another event. I think I remember seeing someone/something saying it was Trunks who brought the remote control to destroy the androids in his timeline, but I can't say for sure if this is indeed the case.
Yeah, that's what I think too. Though I would say Trunks also has this "link established" even from the first time he travels back. This "link" is thanks to the fact that Trunks going to an already altered timeline is meant to happen and it happens after Cell had already traveled to that same timeline.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
They do explain it but there is still the paradox.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
I was speaking about all the Trunkses we know there was one mecha Freeza attack that no trunks ever came back to because they didn't know the “needed to go back to that era” untill after it had happened. Because it uses the multiverse theory of time travel I guess.Grimlock wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:17 amThe thing is, Trunks is there originally. The Trunks who was killed by Cell had already made the same trips to the past. Trunks got killed in AGE 788, when he intends to return to the present to let people know he destroyed the androids. The difference is that that Trunks didn't find Cell's time machine in the timeline he went to. And so he didn't know about Cell, and so he got killed.TobyS wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:06 amTrunks just going back when he wasn't originally there is inherently different. Even if he just looked around and went home. That's what we assumed for years and is logical out of universe. Trunks being there when he wasn't before is a paradox. (A contradiction between the two timelines histories)
Super manga doesn't contradict this, but it just kinda raises the standard on what constitutes a “big enough” paradox to split the timeline. So it was probably like killing Freeza or giving the heart meds and warning about the androids that split it the first time.
So I think the split is thanks to another event. I think I remember seeing someone/something saying it was Trunks who brought the remote control to destroy the androids in his timeline, but I can't say for sure if this is indeed the case.
Yeah, that's what I think too. Though I would say Trunks also has this "link established" even from the first time he travels back. This "link" is thanks to the fact that Trunks going to an already altered timeline is meant to happen and it happens after Cell had already traveled to that same timeline.
When people talk about splits,
It depends on if you mean split as in “that's what caused the timeline to split” or this is the point where this timeline differs from the other.
The point where the main timeline diverges from the cells timeline or the unseen timeline is that they discover cells cicada shell. But that's not a point a timeline splits off I don't think. Cells, The unseen, trunks and main and u12s are all in play at this point.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the anime suggest this as well? Goku Black states that his path towards the Zero Mortal Plan was a result of his sparring match with Goku during their visit at U10. Their visit towards U10 was because they were investigating the identity of Goku Black even though he logically wouldn't have existed. That explanation of Goku Black being a result of a time-split occurring once Beerus eliminated Present Zamasu would make sense even though it's a little weird to comprehend.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:16 am There's no plot hole.
Goku Black's timeline was created from Beerus erasing the Present Zamasu, which was dictated by History. This led to a timeline where Beerus DIDN'T destroy Present Zamasu, where Zamasu was able to kill Gowasu, become Supreme Kai, and put his Plan in motion. That is Goku Black's timeline and that incarnation of Present Zamasu would go on to become Goku Black.
Goku Black then used a Time Ring, an artifact that can be used only by Supreme Kais, to see all potential alternate universes in the Time-Space Continuum, and travel to the timeline of Future Trunks.
All is connected, all is explained, all makes sense.
Anyway Toei explains everything, just look at this and you'll see that it all makes sense:
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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
Yes. We know that Goku Black is indeed the same Zamasu who got erased by Beerus. Basically Black and Present Zamasu have the same identical lives, up to the moment where Beerus erased one Zamasu. But because Black wears a Time Ring, which protects him to any change made to the past, he wasn't erased by his "death" at the hands of Beerus.Goku9001 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:56 pm Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the anime suggest this as well? Goku Black states that his path towards the Zero Mortal Plan was a result of his sparring match with Goku during their visit at U10. Their visit towards U10 was because they were investigating the identity of Goku Black even though he logically wouldn't have existed. That explanation of Goku Black being a result of a time-split occurring once Beerus eliminated Present Zamasu would make sense even though it's a little weird to comprehend.
We also know that Zamasu killing Gowasu was the natural outcome decided by History, because Whis had to rewind time otherwise the Present Zamasu would have also killed Gowasu. Which means that when Beerus erased Zamasu, he defied what History dictated, not too differently from Trunks saving Goku from the Heart virus. So History had to rewrite everything to welcome these new changes, which leads to a timeline split and a new Time Ring (caused by Beerus).
And indeed that's what Whis tells Beerus at the end. He shouldn't blame Trunks for messing time because he is also guilty of that. Both Beerus and Trunks caused alternate realities to be created, due to their defiance of what History dictated (History dictated Goku would die of heart virus, and Zamasu would kill Gowasu and become Goku Black).
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
"History" deciding this and that has to happen is pretty dumb.
It's arbitrary nonsense, that doesn't make any sense. Who is "History?", what is "History?" Is there something controlling it or it just somehow works in whatever way the writers decide it to?(like everything else that's exactly what it is).
There is no rhyme or reason to it, it is simply bullshit. But fictional works seem to like the idea of having wonky Time Travel rules, what with the "Back to the Future" series, the "Harry Potter series, "Dr. Who" series and plenty others.
Dragon Ball was a shining beacon with the, albeit not perfect, but more sensible, multiple timelines version, but now we have the paradoxical logic of Goku-Black appearing out of nowhere, because "History" has decreed, it is so.
Even Avengers Endgame tried a multiple timelines time travel plot, but then they didn't stick the landing and soon after it was made obvious, that the writers and directors did not agree on how their time travel logic actually worked.
Toyotaro was without a doubt on the right track with having time happening concurrently between timelines(the anime doesn't mention it, but they practically operate the same way, because they don't just immediately reenter Trunks' timeline after their last defeat), no matter how much Grimlock objects, but he was served a shit sandwich and had to follow the narrative, that Beerus erasing Zamasu is what split the timeline, because it was at that moment "History" decided "Oh no, that's too big a change, can't have that, so now you split!"
The timeline should only split, once you go back to a point in time, that has already happened, so Trunks' travel by itself is what causes the split, not Beerus eventually erasing Zamasu. This is because the events that led to Goku-Black's existence has already occured in the present timeline and thus when Trunks goes back to the present Timeline his machine was set to(the main timeline from before Super), he unwittingly splits it and creates a new timeline.
But I guess the ones in charge don't want to operate on sensible logic, so it is what is
It's arbitrary nonsense, that doesn't make any sense. Who is "History?", what is "History?" Is there something controlling it or it just somehow works in whatever way the writers decide it to?(like everything else that's exactly what it is).
There is no rhyme or reason to it, it is simply bullshit. But fictional works seem to like the idea of having wonky Time Travel rules, what with the "Back to the Future" series, the "Harry Potter series, "Dr. Who" series and plenty others.
Dragon Ball was a shining beacon with the, albeit not perfect, but more sensible, multiple timelines version, but now we have the paradoxical logic of Goku-Black appearing out of nowhere, because "History" has decreed, it is so.
Even Avengers Endgame tried a multiple timelines time travel plot, but then they didn't stick the landing and soon after it was made obvious, that the writers and directors did not agree on how their time travel logic actually worked.
Toyotaro was without a doubt on the right track with having time happening concurrently between timelines(the anime doesn't mention it, but they practically operate the same way, because they don't just immediately reenter Trunks' timeline after their last defeat), no matter how much Grimlock objects, but he was served a shit sandwich and had to follow the narrative, that Beerus erasing Zamasu is what split the timeline, because it was at that moment "History" decided "Oh no, that's too big a change, can't have that, so now you split!"
The timeline should only split, once you go back to a point in time, that has already happened, so Trunks' travel by itself is what causes the split, not Beerus eventually erasing Zamasu. This is because the events that led to Goku-Black's existence has already occured in the present timeline and thus when Trunks goes back to the present Timeline his machine was set to(the main timeline from before Super), he unwittingly splits it and creates a new timeline.
But I guess the ones in charge don't want to operate on sensible logic, so it is what is
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Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
It's not dumb. History originally dictated that Goku would die of a heart illness. That's what happens in the original history, where Goku indeed died of heart virus. Because history dictated this, even the "main" Goku was going to die of a heart virus; but Future Trunks' meddling with time saved him and interfered with what History dictated.
It is directly stated by Goku Black that Goku was indeed supposed to die of a heart illness like "History ORIGINALLY dictated", until Trunks "defied" time; and Trunks interfering with time created a "split in the timeline":
https://youtu.be/BnoJhn-xVhM?t=41
Similarly, because Goku Black exists as a being, Present Zamasu was supposed to kill Gowasu. And it is indeed shown that this was supposed to happen as dictated by History, because he succeeded before Whis rewinded everything. But because Beerus erased him, he split time.
And that's why Whis blames Beerus of the same crime Trunks is guilty of. Splitting time. To which Beerus concedes that Whis is right and he messed up, when he erased Present Zamasu.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
I heard some theories about the subject, and I really like this one:
The timeline where Zamasu fought Goku, used the Super DBs and became Goku Black is the original one. However, when Trunks travelled to the past, this timeline started to be rewritten.
If Trunks hadn't traveled to the past, Goku probably would have stayed longer on Beerus' planet, and somehow Beerus or Whis would have mentioned Zamasu. Goku, hearing about a strong Kai, gets curious and asks Whis to go to universe 10 to meet him, and the rest we already know.
The timeline where Zamasu fought Goku, used the Super DBs and became Goku Black is the original one. However, when Trunks travelled to the past, this timeline started to be rewritten.
If Trunks hadn't traveled to the past, Goku probably would have stayed longer on Beerus' planet, and somehow Beerus or Whis would have mentioned Zamasu. Goku, hearing about a strong Kai, gets curious and asks Whis to go to universe 10 to meet him, and the rest we already know.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
Because it is an inconsistent standard. What is exactly a big enough change to warrant a new time-line? We were under the impression in the original series that simply traveling back in time (unless you were already synced to that same era, like Trunks' subsequent travels) was enough to split the time-lines. That's why Cell's mere presence created a new time-line even though he didn't do anything realistically major to split the time-line before Trunks arrived. Yet nevertheless we had 4 time-lines in the original series.Grimlock wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:27 am I think it makes sense, as far as we are able to understand. The only two issues is the wasted opportunity for Goku Black to be Zamasu from the actual original timeline (the one Cell comes from), and that in the manga, "one day passes in the present, one day passes in the future", which is not true.
Mind to explain why is that "obvious"? So far, all the explanations and statements imply the split only happens in the first action. Not each time someone travels, a split happens. Otherwise there would be more Time Rings, wouldnt it? First we have Cell (who is the one responsible for the split, he traveled and arrived in the present before Trunks). Then we have Trunks traveling thrice. Then we have Beerus erasing Zamasu, which does cause a split, because that wasn't meant to happen in the first place. It was the first time it happened. Then we have Universe 12's time traveller (if I remember correctly). I count six Time Rings here but there are only five green ones (I assume the silver one works differently, hence the different color).Yuji wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:36 amIn the manga, the progression follows more logically the original series but where it gets muddied is the insistence in both versions in having Beerus' hakai as the point where the time-line splits instead of the obvious conclusion that it was Trunks going back that split the time-line.
What exactly does Trunks change by arriving in the present? He arrived in a timeline that was already altered. Unless, of course, I'm missing someone specifically saying "every time someone travels, a new timeline is created" and that it is indeed supposed to have six Time Rings, all caused by each time someone time traveled but they forgot to show us one more.
Super's time travel doesn't really contradict anything, and it fits in nicely with the expanded universe, but it's a bit counterintuitive to how one would think time travel worked in this series.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
History is the past, what has already happened. Trunks goes back, changes that and creates new history, going against what originally happened. We agree here.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:46 pm It's not dumb. History originally dictated that Goku would die of a heart illness. That's what happens in the original history, where Goku indeed died of heart virus. Because history dictated this, even the "main" Goku was going to die of a heart virus; but Future Trunks' meddling with time saved him and interfered with what History dictated.
It is directly stated by Goku Black that Goku was indeed supposed to die of a heart illness like "History ORIGINALLY dictated", until Trunks "defied" time; and Trunks interfering with time created a "split in the timeline":
https://youtu.be/BnoJhn-xVhM?t=41
Similarly, because Goku Black exists as a being, Present Zamasu was supposed to kill Gowasu. And it is indeed shown that this was supposed to happen as dictated by History, because he succeeded before Whis rewinded everything. But because Beerus erased him, he split time.
And that's why Whis blames Beerus of the same crime Trunks is guilty of. Splitting time. To which Beerus concedes that Whis is right and he messed up, when he erased Present Zamasu.
What doesn't make sense is "History" stopping up at a certain point and saying "hmm, this change is too big, compared to what happened originally, so time to split the timelines!", as if it is somehow sentient and decides only at that point to actually split timelines, instead of it just being Trunks' time travel by itself causing the split in the first place.
It seems that our media in general really likes to complicate all time travel stuff, probably to keep the idea of mystery and make it seem like something beyond human comprehension, but I detest that.
Keeping it simple and logical is a beautiful thing, messing it up like they always do is what I'd consider true ugliness, a contradiction between the massive intelligence we have to organize things and the fantasies we make up to turn it all into a jumbled mess, because that's appealing somehow.
Well we are only human
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
Beerus may have created a new timeline but he did the right thing but getting rid of Present Zamasu.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
Thanks for the thorough explanation. I had forgotten about Whis' interference with time which would naturally have its own consequences as well which supports the idea of Beerus being guilty of the thing that Trunks was.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:46 am
Yes. We know that Goku Black is indeed the same Zamasu who got erased by Beerus. Basically Black and Present Zamasu have the same identical lives, up to the moment where Beerus erased one Zamasu. But because Black wears a Time Ring, which protects him to any change made to the past, he wasn't erased by his "death" at the hands of Beerus.
We also know that Zamasu killing Gowasu was the natural outcome decided by History, because Whis had to rewind time otherwise the Present Zamasu would have also killed Gowasu. Which means that when Beerus erased Zamasu, he defied what History dictated, not too differently from Trunks saving Goku from the Heart virus. So History had to rewrite everything to welcome these new changes, which leads to a timeline split and a new Time Ring (caused by Beerus).
And indeed that's what Whis tells Beerus at the end. He shouldn't blame Trunks for messing time because he is also guilty of that. Both Beerus and Trunks caused alternate realities to be created, due to their defiance of what History dictated (History dictated Goku would die of heart virus, and Zamasu would kill Gowasu and become Goku Black).
I think with this being explained, it certainly makes the Goku Black saga a cohesive story in both the anime and manga.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
Yeah this is my problem with it too. The "universe" wouldn't care how big or small the change is, it made more sense before but I'm willing to accept this annoyance for these new stories which I liked on the whole.dbgtFO wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:04 pmHistory is the past, what has already happened. Trunks goes back, changes that and creates new history, going against what originally happened. We agree here.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:46 pm It's not dumb. History originally dictated that Goku would die of a heart illness. That's what happens in the original history, where Goku indeed died of heart virus. Because history dictated this, even the "main" Goku was going to die of a heart virus; but Future Trunks' meddling with time saved him and interfered with what History dictated.
It is directly stated by Goku Black that Goku was indeed supposed to die of a heart illness like "History ORIGINALLY dictated", until Trunks "defied" time; and Trunks interfering with time created a "split in the timeline":
https://youtu.be/BnoJhn-xVhM?t=41
Similarly, because Goku Black exists as a being, Present Zamasu was supposed to kill Gowasu. And it is indeed shown that this was supposed to happen as dictated by History, because he succeeded before Whis rewinded everything. But because Beerus erased him, he split time.
And that's why Whis blames Beerus of the same crime Trunks is guilty of. Splitting time. To which Beerus concedes that Whis is right and he messed up, when he erased Present Zamasu.
What doesn't make sense is "History" stopping up at a certain point and saying "hmm, this change is too big, compared to what happened originally, so time to split the timelines!", as if it is somehow sentient and decides only at that point to actually split timelines, instead of it just being Trunks' time travel by itself causing the split in the first place.
It seems that our media in general really likes to complicate all time travel stuff, probably to keep the idea of mystery and make it seem like something beyond human comprehension, but I detest that.
Keeping it simple and logical is a beautiful thing, messing it up like they always do is what I'd consider true ugliness, a contradiction between the massive intelligence we have to organize things and the fantasies we make up to turn it all into a jumbled mess, because that's appealing somehow.
Well we are only human
I think of it like throwing pebbles in a stream. creates ripples but doesn't effect the flow of water.
Chucking a big boulder in might fork the river.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
Re: Goku Black coming from Original Future timeline
Toyotaro contradicts the timeskip in the Dragon Ball manga by doing that. While in the present three years passes, eight months passes in the future. If time operated the same among timelines, three years should have passed in the future too. Also, if three years had passed in the future too, then Trunks should still have come from twenty years in the future as it was originally, not seventeen, as it is the case.
Don't mind my objections, mind the actual problems and contradictions Toriyama and Toyotaro themselves come up with.
No way to know exactly. In both futures, the original and the one Trunks comes from, it's Goku who defeats King Cold and Freeza. No Trunks arrived in those timelines.
So if you ask me, I would say Cell managing to time travel as well as Trunks finding out about Cell's time machine are the two changes that warrant a new timeline. The former affects the present, it's the first and only Cell that manages to time travel. The latter actually affects the future. Trunks having knowledge of Cell and his time machine is what prevents him from being killed.