Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:32 pm

The fact that the arc has been stated to end soon hasn't changed that I'm interested in it, but it has changed the way I'm interested in it. It's not completely a "watching a trainwreck happen and unable to look away" situation, but... just how can this arc be concluded properly in the time it has left? I really want to know, so I'm very interested, but it's not really a positive kind of interest, if that makes sense. The fact that this chapter's title is "Gas vs Granolah 2" gives me a feeling that the arc isn't headed towards its conclusion at a terribly high speed, which makes me want to know even more, but still not in a very good way.

Also, this current battle isn't terribly interesting to me, even if the previous ones have been. I don't feel like we've spent enough time with Granolah for him to be the "protagonist" of a long fight like this current one between him and Gas. I think this kind of battle should be a relatively quick fight that functions as a stepping stone leading to other stuff, not a fight that's more than a chapter long (which, judging from the drafts, if you add together chapters 79 and 80, it most likely will be). I'm not invested in either Granolah or Gas to that degree, because I don't feel like I've been given enough of a reason to be, so I kinda end up not caring. Just move on to Goku vs Gas or whatever the final fight will be (and don't have this as the final fight please), thanks.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZodiacBeast » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:35 pm

I feel like this whole arc was just to show Vegeta's new form.

I mean, obviously other stuff happened, but UE is always front and center when I think of where the manga's at.

Well, that and cheap wish potential.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:05 pm

It's really funny how unanimous the feeling is that knowing the arc is ending soon really hurt the enjoyment. I really enjoyed this arc up to and including the conclusion of the fight between Vegeta and Granolah, and haven't been feeling it since the flashback chapter and the move towards Gas as the antagonist.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:19 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:54 pm So, what killed the excitement for this arc? The never ending battles or the "it's ending soon" announcement?
Battles are fine. Nearly the entire Saiyan arc was back-to-back fights; the difference being that compelling beats, hooks, and instances of character development were actively interwoven into them. They were resonant because they told a story.

I think what you mean to say, based on your following post, is that this story has consisted mostly of empty battles that have been very light on those things, and that's true. Vegeta vs. Granolah has been the only worthwhile conflict in this entire arc.

If I wanted shallow videogame fights, I'd just tune into the SDBH webisodes.
OLKv3 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:51 pm Granolah's sudden turn to the good guy side was too fast
I'm glad you brought this up. Is Granolah a redeemed "good guy" now? Is he still single-mindedly driven by revenge, only with new targets? We don't know because the past several chapters have opted to treat him more as a bystander than an actual character. Even now, the only dialogue Granolah gets is his fighting strategies.

He's apparently made up with Oatmeel, which... was abruptly done within a few panels, so it tells me nothing aside from the possibility that he's now (suddenly) in touch with his conscience. I guess that's because a Saiyan saved him and his mom, or something.

Maybe this chapter will change my mind about there being nothing of substance here, but given its title, I ain't holding my breath.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:50 pm

To me, this arc very much feels like DBS Broly. I liked that film, but the structure of this story feels very similar. A huge battle with the dressing of story elements on the sides. I think the "beats" of these fights are generally more interesting (thanks to Vegeta), but the animation for Broly really made those fights (and Freeza on the sidelines is fantastic). Where that that kind of story can work for a popcorn action movie, I can see why people would have issues with how that gets paced for a monthly manga. I personally have enjoyed this arc and still do.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by fleahop » Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:44 pm

Alruneia wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:32 pm The fact that the arc has been stated to end soon hasn't changed that I'm interested in it, but it has changed the way I'm interested in it. It's not completely a "watching a trainwreck happen and unable to look away" situation, but... just how can this arc be concluded properly in the time it has left? I really want to know, so I'm very interested, but it's not really a positive kind of interest, if that makes sense. The fact that this chapter's title is "Gas vs Granolah 2" gives me a feeling that the arc isn't headed towards its conclusion at a terribly high speed, which makes me want to know even more, but still not in a very good way.

Also, this current battle isn't terribly interesting to me, even if the previous ones have been. I don't feel like we've spent enough time with Granolah for him to be the "protagonist" of a long fight like this current one between him and Gas. I think this kind of battle should be a relatively quick fight that functions as a stepping stone leading to other stuff, not a fight that's more than a chapter long (which, judging from the drafts, if you add together chapters 79 and 80, it most likely will be). I'm not invested in either Granolah or Gas to that degree, because I don't feel like I've been given enough of a reason to be, so I kinda end up not caring. Just move on to Goku vs Gas or whatever the final fight will be (and don't have this as the final fight please), thanks.
It hurts to say that I really feel this.

I will try to remain hopeful, but the current chapter title and knowledge that it's ending soon have me rethinking the entire arc. Crossing my fingers that it's going to be good.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:02 am

batistabus wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:50 pm To me, this arc very much feels like DBS Broly. I liked that film, but the structure of this story feels very similar. A huge battle with the dressing of story elements on the sides. I think the "beats" of these fights are generally more interesting (thanks to Vegeta), but the animation for Broly really made those fights (and Freeza on the sidelines is fantastic). Where that that kind of story can work for a popcorn action movie, I can see why people would have issues with how that gets paced for a monthly manga. I personally have enjoyed this arc and still do.
DBS Broly was a movie, this is a monthly manga. A monthly manga having the same structure as a movie is already bad in itself.

But I think Toyo's biggest problem is his art, look at OPM by Murata (kin of unfair comparaison), it's a glorified tournament manga now with fighting non-stop and some sob-story flashback sprinkle around but people stick around just to see new feat and pretty fight.

There is, I think, a lack of "grandiose" in his art.
For me Toyotaro is like Yamamuro, same rigid art, rigid conformity and repetitive pose.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:38 am

Jinto wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:02 am
batistabus wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:50 pm To me, this arc very much feels like DBS Broly. I liked that film, but the structure of this story feels very similar. A huge battle with the dressing of story elements on the sides. I think the "beats" of these fights are generally more interesting (thanks to Vegeta), but the animation for Broly really made those fights (and Freeza on the sidelines is fantastic). Where that that kind of story can work for a popcorn action movie, I can see why people would have issues with how that gets paced for a monthly manga. I personally have enjoyed this arc and still do.
But I think Toyo's biggest problem is his art, look at OPM by Murata (kin of unfair comparaison), it's a glorified tournament manga now with fighting non-stop and some sob-story flashback sprinkle around but people stick around just to see new feat and pretty fight.

There is, I think, a lack of "grandiose" in his art.
For me Toyotaro is like Yamamuro, same rigid art, rigid conformity and repetitive pose.
Kind of unfair to compare Murata and Toyotaro. If Toyotaro was as good of a mangaka as Murata, he'd be drawing his own original series, not a sequel series. As a cartoonist, Toyotaro pales in comparison to Toriyama; that's not a debate. But all things considered - and compared to other Jump spinoff magazine artists, he's doing a good job.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:38 am

Re: DBS Broly:

I posted this in the other thread not long ago:
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:53 pm I actually think the fight in DBS Broly had a number of standout character beats: Broly slowly losing himself to the heat of battle, Goku trying to convince him to choose freedom, Paragus's desperation in general, Freeza killing Paragus to force the Super Saiyan transformation, fusion, etc. etc.
...which is to say, while the climactic fight in that film was hella long, it actually did have a lot going on narratively. But also, every single beat in that battle centralized around Broly as a character. When you compare that to Granolah vs. Gas, there's a pretty stark difference in that the latter's own beats are much lighter, more sparse, and focused on Gas instead of Granolah (even though they really shouldn't be, since Granolah has been the story's primary focus until now).

So, to be honest, I can't agree with all the comparisons made between DBS Broly and this arc. Their fights have been structurally quite different*, even if they do superficially use a "three dudes bound by fate" tagline. I think that's where people are getting a sense of some similarity between the two.

(*: Except for Vegeta vs. Granolah. That was done fairly well, especially when read collected.)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:49 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:38 am snip
By saying they are similar, I wasn't even counting things like "bound by fate", the echoes of Freeza's empire, or the theme of revenge (which are all different in consequential ways). I'm just talking about the phases of the arc (story > a really long fight > presumably more story). That's different from the tournament arcs or the adventure-heavy arcs, but similar to something like RoF. We've seen it in the films, but we haven't really seen it in the manga since F and Broly were skipped. Even though the ToP is one big fight, I'd compare it more to the other tournament arcs (a bunch of unique character interactions, different characters fighting, building rivalry, etc.).

I'd be interested to talk to you more about DBS Broly, but since we're getting off topic, I'll leave it at that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:04 am

batistabus wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:49 am I'd be interested to talk to you more about DBS Broly, but since we're getting off topic, I'll leave it at that.
That's fair. You mentioned that the films in general have a similar phase structure, but I guess I could acknowledge that as a kind of general commonality between the two.

We'll save it for Ponta's Re-Read thread, assuming I'm still around by then.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:09 pm

This is very very boring. If this is the climax, this arc has really gone downhill and it’s such a shame. Moro arc’s drafts when it entered the climax were fantastic and always created a lot of hype. Actually the current situation reminds me of Omen Goku vs Moro, but worse…

It’s sad because I really liked this arc up until a few chapters ago. Last month’s chapter was terrible, and the prior one wasn’t too different. Now this one is shaping up to be, again, substance-less with possibly a hook by the end of the chapter. Hopefully things will improve and Toyotaro’s saving the best for last. But I hope that this chapter will solve this fight by the middle of the chapter and go forward with the story,
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:29 pm

I think the fight itself is not that bad, it has a nice displaying of some techniques and the highlight for me was that Oatmeal’s support actually mattered. For me, the problem is that it takes a very long time to move on to another plot beat, and so little things happen to make us connect with these new characters. Perhaps the format is not helping, but it’s still fun when it comes, and I completely forget about Dragon Ball Super again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:32 pm

Knowing that the arc will end soon does decrease my appreciation of the last chapters, but it actually increases my interest in the coming ones.
Regarding the combat, independently or structural similarities with the movie, the current last chapters do remind me of a good portion (definitely not all) of Broly's fight in that it feels just flashy and hollow. It feels like a pause of the story.
It would also feel (way less tho) like this if it was vs Elec, but is worse with Gas, since as people have mentioned, Gas works as a part of the Heeta, and he is getting the spotlight of a bigger character.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:45 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:54 pm So, what killed the excitement for this arc? The never ending battles or the "it's ending soon" announcement?
Both. It's a bad combo for this arc in particular. The spamming of the "strongest ever" wish and lack of explanation of how it even works also didn't help.

I want to like Gas and Granolah, but if they were going to be the focus, then Goku and Vegeta's involvement is somewhat superfluous. We at least don't need both Goku and Vegeta. Just pick one of them, in this case Vegeta and have him lead the arc.

I guess Goku is needed to be there for Granolah and Gas to have their title of "strongest" properly cemented and now Goku is needed for the Bardock connection, but this feels like the case of the arc setting up a lot and doing only a little.

I would honestly love more development from Gas and Granolah. If this is only the first act of a bigger arc, I would prefer that than it ending without a good climax which is where it looks like we're headed.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:51 am

I think our enjoyment of the manga always goes back to its importance to the grand scheme of things (like I always said).
The manga quality seems to be linked to how much Toyotaro can move things around.
The question we are supposed to ask ourself is "Are we supposed to care about the manga at this point ?"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:43 am

The new characters in this arc feel as undercooked as an MCU villain. The reliance on fighting without really establishing anything interesting about those characters is really boring. Meanwhile, I've been reading trans fiction on other sites and have been more invested than ever in the characters and stories in those works. Why is that? Because I understand and relate to those stories and can see myself in those predicaments? Or rather, wish I was in those predicaments?

So, looking back on these last two arcs, I think that's the issue: there's no way for me to feel a human connection to the story. I don't feel like Toyo-tarou is putting himself into the work, thus I am not following another human's heart. I don't feel like I can self-insert into the work.

These are not stories about and for humans, they're just ink on paper. They don't mean anything and that's boring.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:00 am

Man I hope this chapter concludes this fight with Gas, dude is boring af. Seriously, I have no idea why Toyo thought it was a good idea to make this guy, this cardboard cut out, one of the major combatants. Hell I would've preferred if Elec took the wish or something and fought Granola personally, at least then the fight would have some sort of story significance or at least feel like it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:45 pm

If I had to make a guess (needless so close to the release of the Chapter, I suppose, but whatever; speculation is part of the fun)...

I'd predict that although the unfolding fight between Gas and Granolah will be central still (given the title), it might be a little bit more variegated than Chapter 79 was - so, about half of it showing Granolah moving onto the back foot (as shown a bit here, but maybe fighting back in ways specific to his abilities, such as targeting Gas's vital points, before he gets put down?), perhaps with some extra stuff around Vegeta getting into the mix to try to help (hence him getting healed in the preview), but probably futilely, with Goku staying out of it for now and getting information from Monaito on how Bardock beat Gas despite their power difference last time around; meanwhile, we move over to Elec doing whatever he's doing at some point (presumably getting the Dragon Balls for another wish, but it could be something else, I guess), perhaps with the hook on either Elec getting ready to do whatever his last play is, or Goku stepping back in armed with the knowledge Monaito gives him (even if we're not yet told what the key is in this particular Chapter).

So, not moving things on very much, but at least moving them on a bit, and a more balanced offering than the last Chapter overall. That's my guess (which isn't very far off from some of the earlier guesses in this thread, particularly the guess made by Jack Bz), and I'd be happy enough with that. The wait for Chapter 81 (which is where I think the 'big twist' will be, not here - still expecting a wish to make Freeza the #1 in the Universe) would be a bit of a drag, but it'd be a logical step back towards positive momentum in the arc (depending on how it's meant to end, of course).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:49 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:19 pm I think what you mean to say, based on your following post, is that this story has consisted mostly of empty battles that have been very light on those things, and that's true. Vegeta vs. Granolah has been the only worthwhile conflict in this entire arc.
100% all of this. That is my biggest gripe with the battles. It feels like they are there just to show off Toyotaro's battle choreography.
If I wanted shallow videogame fights, I'd just tune into the SDBH webisodes.
Yeah, it definitely feels like I'm watching a Xenoverse match between two "Patrollers". They even have moves from other characters like the Xenoverse MC. In Granolah's case, he has Vegeta as a mentor of sorts too. If he busts out one of Vegeta's moves in the fight, I'm going to cackle.

Now I want to see if Toyotaro has a Xenoverse Create-a-Character and if they resemble Granolah or Gas.
JulieYBM wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:43 am The reliance on fighting without really establishing anything interesting about those characters is really boring.
That's what's killing it for me as well.
Meanwhile, I've been reading trans fiction on other sites and have been more invested than ever in the characters and stories in those works. Why is that? Because I understand and relate to those stories and can see myself in those predicaments? Or rather, wish I was in those predicaments?
I relate-ish to Granolah but he's written as revenge-blinded which is a trait I don't normally like unless there's a good reason and I don't think Granolah had a good reason for most of the arc especially since asking Goku and Vegeta only a few extra questions would avoid their conflict altogether. It's like if Batman profiled and attacked all Caucasian men just because Joe Chill killed his parents. No detective work, no questions, just Bat-fists.

And I relate more to mobsters in mobster movies than the Heaters. I'm still waiting for them to do ... something, something which would kick off the actual arc, but we're stalled in first gear waiting for whatever Elec has concocted.
So, looking back on these last two arcs, I think that's the issue: there's no way for me to feel a human connection to the story. I don't feel like Toyo-tarou is putting himself into the work, thus I am not following another human's heart. I don't feel like I can self-insert into the work.
The Vegeta bits are the best bits, so I think Toyotaro has a good connection to that character. Everything else feels rather boilerplate.
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