Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:03 am

My interest has waned so much that I forgot I missed last month's chapter.
So I got to read almost 100 pages of two newly introduced characters punch each other. :crazy:

There's absolutely no reason for so much time dedicated to fights, ever since the Moro arc. I could understand extending it sometimes to close out a chapter at a cliffhanger, this is clearly intentional.

I don't care to comment more, just disappointed on the direction both the Moro arc and this one went. If this is Toyotarõ ideas, then I don't want him at the helm.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:47 am

I didn't mind this chapter although the fight is still slow to be honest. I liked Elec relationship with Gas. King Piccolo was the only main villain who cared about his henchmen but what him and Elec have in common is that their henchmen are also family members. I could be wrong and Elec is only manipulating Gas for his own personal gain but I like to think it's more than that.
Jack Bz wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:46 amI was floating the idea of Gas only having something drastic like a few weeks to live now, which would also imply that he actually has less potential than Granolah which would push his insecurities over the edge as well.
That would be interesting. There has to be a reason why the story hasn't revealed the condition of Gas's wish yet and it might affect the outcome of the fight. Potential seems to vary by race in DB so it's possible that the wish had to compress more of his remaining lifespan in order to surpass Granolah.

I'm wondering how the condition would be revealed though since only Elec is aware of it. It seems unlikely he would reveal it during this fight knowing it could discourage or distract Gas. I suppose one way is that Granolah brings up how little time he has left to fulfill his mission which leads to Gas asking Elec about himself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:47 pm

This problem with Toyotaro has been a thing since the AF manga. His idea of an arc is basically an extended Z movie
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:40 am

LightBing wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:03 am My interest has waned so much that I forgot I missed last month's chapter.
So I got to read almost 100 pages of two newly introduced characters punch each other. :crazy:

There's absolutely no reason for so much time dedicated to fights, ever since the Moro arc. I could understand extending it sometimes to close out a chapter at a cliffhanger, this is clearly intentional.

I don't care to comment more, just disappointed on the direction both the Moro arc and this one went. If this is Toyotarõ ideas, then I don't want him at the helm.
I could deal with all this being devoted to fights.

Just not for two characters we dont give a flying crap about, who will be ancient history as soon as this arc is over. I care about Granolah a tiny, little bit, and not about Gas AT ALL. At least if this was goku or vegeta, we could have a little investment.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:39 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:47 pm This problem with Toyotaro has been a thing since the AF manga. His idea of an arc is basically an extended Z movie
What makes you say that? I'm not sure what there is about Moro or Granolah that would feel more like a Z movie than RoF or Broly. I think most of modern DB had a simple structure of introduction to setup the conflict, fighting for most of the saga or movie, and conclusion. I felt Moro was more modeled after the Cell saga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:22 am

I don't have an issue with the setup-then-big-battle structure, personally. It worked for Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', the manga's US arc, DBS Broly, etc. because those large scale conflicts - however protracted - actually meant something, and served the characters that have been central to those stories.

A more winding plot is nice, too (I'm not picky), but a change of scenery or whatever isn't gonna do all that much to alleviate my issue with most of the fights in this arc feeling empty/vapid. It's not something I particularly think about when I read these chapters.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:11 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:22 am I don't have an issue with the setup-then-big-battle structure, personally. It worked for Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', the manga's US arc, DBS Broly, etc. because those large scale conflicts - however protracted - actually meant something, and served the characters that have been central to those stories.
I prefer this simpler structure for the revival since I think it works better for the time period. I wasn't criticizing it and only trying to understand what was being compared to the Z movies. I think grouping all the original movies together is a little unfair since they varied in quality. Same with a general statement that all the revival storylines are superior to anything created by Toei in the past. Each arc or movie is different and could be judged separately. It's still possible for someone to enjoy some of the old movies more than most of the new storylines.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jamiljamtheman » Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:23 am

Actually I can definitely see the comparison with the general outline of the “generic pre-BoG Z Movie formula” and this arc:

- at the start, our main protagonists are just living their lives doing their thing—in this case, Goku and Vegeta training on Beerus’s planet.

- meanwhile, somewhere else in the universe, we’re introduced to characters we’ve never seen before, and can expect them to be on a collision course with the protagonists.

- to nobody’s surprise, a conflict arises and the new characters are now engaged in battle with the protagonists. The rest at this point is fighting fighting fighting.

Though in this arc things are more fleshed out than in almost any Z movie—Granolah isn’t just some generic bad guy, and the arc has actually shifted main antagonists. Goku and Vegeta were actually growing at the beginning for later setups, as opposed to living intentionally-meaningless-slice-of-life.

So it’s certainly got more substance than the 1hr movies, but it has a similar formula/structure. I am enjoying this arc so far, personally, I think it’s good fun. I also do like several Z movies :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:33 pm

If it wasn't for Kanzenshuu's news section, I would have no idea that the manga is on.
As many people wrote, the fights are not the problem, Dragon Ball was and is a fighting manga.
The problem for me is, that I am not interested in anybody and anything that is happening.
There is nothing to really stand out. As we compared original Toriyama's manga with Toyotaro and what I loved about the original series were the memorable simple designs and stand-out fights. Hell, when you play FighterZ, all the characters moves, intros, outros, they are taken directly from the source material and everyone remembers Goku's and Vegeta's respective stance from Saiyan arc, moves like Kamehameha, Kikoho, Kienzan etc. and fights with memorable simple moves in few frames.

I miss this in this manga, it's like watching some kid playing with action figures. Clack, clack, clack.
No stakes whatsoever. I would be really happy if they kill it.
Moro arc was interesting for being brand new and original material and there were some nice moments, linking to the lore and stories before and altough I had some criticisms on Moro himself in the end, I was really looking forward on what comes next.
With Granolah arc I am just thinking ''please, end it'' and I am seriously worried about the next arc, or rather, I don't really care.
Hard to believe that Toriyama has more involvement in this than GT.

Yeah and also, missing the cliffhangers at the end of the chapters.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:41 pm

The problem with Super is that it pretty much dependent on the status quo of Z. And because of that, its a series that refuses to do much of anything different in fear upsetting the fanbase who will pitch a fit if they felt that the story was "disrespecting" their favorite character. It's the exact problem I have with Star Wars, a franchise itself in the middle of an arrested development--hey that's a name of a show I like!--because the people handing it are too scared to move the needle forward.

This is exactly what's happening to Dragon Ball: the emotional momentum is entirely centered on power ups and transformations. Not anything the characters are currently feeling or doing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:07 am

kemuri07 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:41 pm The problem with Super is that it pretty much dependent on the status quo of Z. And because of that, its a series that refuses to do much of anything different in fear upsetting the fanbase who will pitch a fit if they felt that the story was "disrespecting" their favorite character. It's the exact problem I have with Star Wars, a franchise itself in the middle of an arrested development--hey that's a name of a show I like!--because the people handing it are too scared to move the needle forward.

This is exactly what's happening to Dragon Ball: the emotional momentum is entirely centered on power ups and transformations. Not anything the characters are currently feeling or doing.
And that's such a limited way of thinking (not you, them) because, even though we know that the characters survive by the "End of Z" there's still so much that can be done with them in the meantime. The problem is that, outside of Vegeta, hardly anyone is developing. Goku's refining his fighting technique, which is fantastic and he's also undergoing some subtle changes which is also great, but the formula of the manga feels so cyclical and stagnant that it often feels like there's no development at all, for him in particular.

Like if they just separate Goku and Vegeta for an arc, that might be enough to escape this feeling of stagnating safety. Just pairing either of them with another character for an arc would be so refreshing. Can you imagine an arc with just Vegeta and Piccolo handling some vital mission and/or foe or even Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin like on Namek. Or what if Goku, Hit, and Tien team up for an arc or Vegeta and Roshi. Those are easy to make. unique and interesting scenarios that can create brand new character dynamics. Stuff like that shows that they can play it safe while still creating new and exciting content. So they aren't just playing it safe, they're playing it boring.

This current arc would even be ideal if the focus was strictly on Vegeta and Granolah, their fight and their eventual teamup. Goku's part in this arc hasn't done much at all other than introducing a strange and convoluted scenario for Bardock. It almost feels like two arcs smashed into one. Vegeta v Gronalah & Goku v Gas. Each arc should have been built up more and separately then maybe converged at some point for the big crazy fight, but the focus on Goku and Vegeta together all the time makes everything feel homogenized. Every arc is mostly them joined at the hip like a co-dependent couple.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mac » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:14 pm

The thought of Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta teaming up again makes me wish so badly for something like that again, I loved crazy teams like that, and it makes me sad we'll definitely never get it again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:12 am

MCDaveG wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:33 pm I miss this in this manga, it's like watching some kid playing with action figures. Clack, clack, clack.
No stakes whatsoever. I would be really happy if they kill it.
Moro arc was interesting for being brand new and original material and there were some nice moments, linking to the lore and stories before and altough I had some criticisms on Moro himself in the end, I was really looking forward on what comes next.
With Granolah arc I am just thinking ''please, end it'' and I am seriously worried about the next arc, or rather, I don't really care.
Hard to believe that Toriyama has more involvement in this than GT.

Yeah and also, missing the cliffhangers at the end of the chapters.
I'm a little surprised to hear those two takes on the Moro and Granolah arcs, respectively, since I wind up being just the opposite. The Moro arc struck me as being the epitome of retread structure and material among all of Super's arcs--more DB just to be reminiscent of DB; gotta stop the bad guy just to stop him--and while I'm not above enjoying that, it is what keeps it so far down on my list compared to other storylines so far.

Granolah and Vegeta's characterization here alone, let alone some of the new wrinkles for Goku with Bardock and the Heatas' internal dynamics, place my investment in the current storyline above it. As guest characters too, Granolah offers much more to immediately latch onto for me than Merus did. His characterization and arc dovetails more coherently with our main characters too.

So I'm not at all having a bad time month to month, and the absolute high points of Vegeta vs. Granolah are only a few chapters behind us (plus I thought the first round of Granolah vs. Gas was great spectacle). I do feel the disappointment others have that Toriyama seems to have gone back to his two-arc structure (setup followed by non-stop action) for DBS here when it seems like this could have had longer legs though. Any other misgivings aside, that is something I appreciate about Toyotaro's plotting for Moro. I'm also sympathetic to the idea that characterization and action haven't always felt as lovingly intertwined here as they are at DB's best, though I thought Vegeta vs. Granolah nailed that and, again, it's not so far back.

I'm increasingly curious about what the original pitch for this arc looked like and if it were a bit more structurally complex before Toriyama's pass. On the other hand, I appreciate the distinctive weirdness he adds. Maybe there's a happy medium that can be hit next time.

I second wanting to shake up the cast a bit, but the secret sauce is Gohan and Vegeta together, IMO.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:39 pm

Cipher wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:12 am
MCDaveG wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:33 pm I miss this in this manga, it's like watching some kid playing with action figures. Clack, clack, clack.
No stakes whatsoever. I would be really happy if they kill it.
Moro arc was interesting for being brand new and original material and there were some nice moments, linking to the lore and stories before and altough I had some criticisms on Moro himself in the end, I was really looking forward on what comes next.
With Granolah arc I am just thinking ''please, end it'' and I am seriously worried about the next arc, or rather, I don't really care.
Hard to believe that Toriyama has more involvement in this than GT.

Yeah and also, missing the cliffhangers at the end of the chapters.
I'm a little surprised to hear those two takes on the Moro and Granolah arcs, respectively, since I wind up being just the opposite. The Moro arc struck me as being the epitome of retread structure and material among all of Super's arcs--more DB just to be reminiscent of DB; gotta stop the bad guy just to stop him--and while I'm not above enjoying that, it is what keeps it so far down on my list compared to other storylines so far.

Granolah and Vegeta's characterization here alone, let alone some of the new wrinkles for Goku with Bardock and the Heatas' internal dynamics, place my investment in the current storyline above it. As guest characters too, Granolah offers much more to immediately latch onto for me than Merus did. His characterization and arc dovetails more coherently with our main characters too.

So I'm not at all having a bad time month to month, and the absolute high points of Vegeta vs. Granolah are only a few chapters behind us (plus I thought the first round of Granolah vs. Gas was great spectacle). I do feel the disappointment others have that Toriyama seems to have gone back to his two-arc structure (setup followed by non-stop action) for DBS here when it seems like this could have had longer legs though. Any other misgivings aside, that is something I appreciate about Toyotaro's plotting for Moro. I'm also sympathetic to the idea that characterization and action haven't always felt as lovingly intertwined here as they are at DB's best, though I thought Vegeta vs. Granolah nailed that and, again, it's not so far back.

I'm increasingly curious about what the original pitch for this arc looked like and if it were a bit more structurally complex before Toriyama's pass. On the other hand, I appreciate the distinctive weirdness he adds. Maybe there's a happy medium that can be hit next time.

I second wanting to shake up the cast a bit, but the secret sauce is Gohan and Vegeta together, IMO.
Well, yeah, you could say that Moro arc was basically King Piccolo and Cell retread. I see it that way personally. But I have liked the bits with Merus, expanding the angel lore, Goku going further into the Ultra Instinct, Vegeta’s personal growth as a “man” plus training on Yadrat to gain on Goku technically. For me, Moro turned out bland to me in the end. Yes andnmore Buu stuff, that felt natural and fit the lore really good. Like the potara retcon, which I personally see as Toriyama correcting his tired and lazy approach back in the day, as he came up with something to came up with something, to separate Goku and Vegeta again.

With Granolah, it’s like Shadow Dragons arc from GT to me. Great initial idea with Heeters to be mind over muscle and having upper hand with their minds… but in the end, there is nothing in the arc for me actually and turned out completely bland on all levels. Granolah cheating with really gimmicky two ball set of dragon balls to engage in totally pointless fight that was stretched, no real plot twists, Heeters somehow being there with Gas being the same and the whole conflict in the arc being kinda one-sided reminding me of Z Broly movie, that to me had interesting and kinda more interesting backstory in the first half, which shifted to be one of the most boring fights for masochists who want to watch 20 minutes of the main characters being massacred with Goku ending it with miracle punch, that he kinda pulled out of his.

I was kinda expecting to explore the dynamics of Freeza and Heeters, instead it’s one pointless fight and now second, with Gas being super not interesting.

If there were some new interesting techniques and Toriyama’s classic formula that I loved and still like, of fight progressing, the “hero” side coming with some cool new stuff to overpower the opponent just for the opponent to pull and ace from their sleeve and see just power struggle, that would be different.
But it’s not. Characters pulling stuff out of their ass and 3 franes for one punch or kick. I would really like the manga to die and if adapted by any chance which I doubt it will, to be radically changed for the anime version.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:25 am

Cipher wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:12 am
MCDaveG wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:33 pm I miss this in this manga, it's like watching some kid playing with action figures. Clack, clack, clack.
No stakes whatsoever. I would be really happy if they kill it.
Moro arc was interesting for being brand new and original material and there were some nice moments, linking to the lore and stories before and altough I had some criticisms on Moro himself in the end, I was really looking forward on what comes next.
With Granolah arc I am just thinking ''please, end it'' and I am seriously worried about the next arc, or rather, I don't really care.
Hard to believe that Toriyama has more involvement in this than GT.

Yeah and also, missing the cliffhangers at the end of the chapters.
I'm a little surprised to hear those two takes on the Moro and Granolah arcs, respectively, since I wind up being just the opposite. The Moro arc struck me as being the epitome of retread structure and material among all of Super's arcs--more DB just to be reminiscent of DB; gotta stop the bad guy just to stop him--and while I'm not above enjoying that, it is what keeps it so far down on my list compared to other storylines so far.

Granolah and Vegeta's characterization here alone, let alone some of the new wrinkles for Goku with Bardock and the Heatas' internal dynamics, place my investment in the current storyline above it. As guest characters too, Granolah offers much more to immediately latch onto for me than Merus did. His characterization and arc dovetails more coherently with our main characters too.

So I'm not at all having a bad time month to month, and the absolute high points of Vegeta vs. Granolah are only a few chapters behind us (plus I thought the first round of Granolah vs. Gas was great spectacle). I do feel the disappointment others have that Toriyama seems to have gone back to his two-arc structure (setup followed by non-stop action) for DBS here when it seems like this could have had longer legs though. Any other misgivings aside, that is something I appreciate about Toyotaro's plotting for Moro. I'm also sympathetic to the idea that characterization and action haven't always felt as lovingly intertwined here as they are at DB's best, though I thought Vegeta vs. Granolah nailed that and, again, it's not so far back.

I'm increasingly curious about what the original pitch for this arc looked like and if it were a bit more structurally complex before Toriyama's pass. On the other hand, I appreciate the distinctive weirdness he adds. Maybe there's a happy medium that can be hit next time.

I second wanting to shake up the cast a bit, but the secret sauce is Gohan and Vegeta together, IMO.
Part of the reason why people are so down on this arc is because it started off so strong. I absolutely remember feeling like this was the most confident Toyotaro has been in his storytelling. It felt like he finally found a way to "modernize" DragonBall, and I was hoping to see where they took it. And i like All Ego Vegeta! And I especially like Granolah: I love his character design, his back story, his fighting style. He' s a great addition to the franchise that is ultimately wasted because he's in another arc in which two dudes watch two other dudes fight and then those dudes comment on said fighting.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:02 am

kemuri07 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:25 amPart of the reason why people are so down on this arc is because it started off so strong. I absolutely remember feeling like this was the most confident Toyotaro has been in his storytelling. It felt like he finally found a way to "modernize" DragonBall, and I was hoping to see where they took it. And i like All Ego Vegeta! And I especially like Granolah: I love his character design, his back story, his fighting style. He' s a great addition to the franchise that is ultimately wasted because he's in another arc in which two dudes watch two other dudes fight and then those dudes comment on said fighting.
This is exactly how I feel. I loved all the stuff with Granolah and Vegeta. I was intrigued by the Heeters and the developments we got with the Namekians. I was even down with how they involved Bardock in all of this. But these last couple of chapters have taken such a massive nose dive in quality. I just don't care about what's currently unfolding.

Gas is such a nothing character. People gave Jiren shit, but I at least found him cool because he was just an absolute monster in terms of strength and he had some mystery behind him. Gas just does not feel like a character that deserves to have this many pages dedicated to him fighting Granolah. I feel like something should've happened by now where Gas isn't the main threat at the moment. It just feels like Toyotaro's dragging the story out to meet some kind of deadline.

Also, does this arc just not have a third act? Is the rest of the story just going to take place on this wasteland on Planet Cereal? At least let there be some kind of change in scenery. This arc desperatly needs a break in the current action, but that's not going to happen because apparently it's ending soon. :crazy: It just reminds me of that dragged out fight on those islands during the Android arc. Went from Piccolo vs 17 to Perfect Cell coming up with the Cell Games for like over 20 chapters.

It also doesn't help that we've kinda seen this all before. Villain orchestrates a fight to happen with Goku, Vegeta and the arc's lead character? Check. Saiyan backstory that involves Bardock and ties into the current story? Check. Arc's lead character is in their position because of the actions of the Saiyans from the past? Check. A character goes berserk and attacks anyone around him? Check. We've already got Super: Broly and it worked so much better as a movie than a monthly serialised manga arc that's dragging its feet. This is a two act story that should be told in a short format, not dragged out to the point of exhaustion.

I hope it gets better these next couple of chapters, but I'm really dissappointed. It sucks because I was really enjoying it not too long ago.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:14 am

I think it would be more intense if Gas learned about his limited life span and had to fight in a rush to prove his worth. That way we as readers could attach ourselves to his situation more. Especially if it was really short now (I think that will be revealed, but still it should've been done earlier)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by GalaxyBusterBuu » Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:46 pm

I just caught up and god...kind of disappointing not gonna lie. Someone end it already...I am dying...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PowerLevel Science » Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:48 pm

The most boring saga since 1984.

Toshotaraou must be replaced now.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 80 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:04 pm

PowerLevel Science wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:48 pm 1. The most boring saga since 1984.

2. Toshotaraou must be replaced now.
1. Nah.

2. Nah.

With all the lame shit in this franchise, this isn’t even comparable to the non-Toriyama stuff. This is the worst of the manga, absolutely, but don’t overblow it.
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