Mishandling of the Multiverse

[Krillin1994]

Since the concept of the Multiverse got introduced we have experienced so little of it

2013 - BOG reveals the existence of multiple universes
2015 - RoF does nothing with that
2016 - pre release for the U6 Arc teases an adventure that takes Goku and co into U6 - Reality was fighting in neutral ground between the two.
2016 - Future Trunks Arc - Goku does actually visit universe 10 but only the Realm of the kais, a somewhat familar location - and only for a short time each visit.
2017 - TOP we get brief glimpses in a couple of episodes: Hit on the Job in the connective tissue between arcs, and tiny glimpses of universes when warriors are being gathered
2018 - Brief shot of warriors being revived in their universes at the end of the ToP
2018 - Broly - U7 based
Manga only
Moro - all U7 Based
Granolah - all U7 Based

In terms of exploring the wide range of universes available we've only had one character (ignoring gods) actually set foot in a different Universe and when Goku did go there, he was being babysat by Whis and Beerus and no exploration occured.

I remember feeling cheated when ultimately getting the U6 arc and it just being a simple tournament after teasing this adventure in a different universe.

Part of me sincerely wishes that the concept of the Super Dragonballs was arguably somewhat more similar to GT and that they had to be gathered within a certain timeframe or the universe would be destroyed - and that they were distributed amongst multiple universes. It would've been a way to split up the core team and get interesting dynamics if due to timing they couldn't just go universe to universe as a large group but required smaller groups and each group needed a strong leading member thus splitting the Goku/Vegeta status quo.

I would say that the Manga U6 tournament arena felt more lively, but just neutral space whilst making sense for no home team advantage, just felt flat for explorative purposes (Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have cared about that and would allow Champa to suggest it take place in U6 due to their intrigue)

TOP being in a literal void was just so horrible to look at for an extended period of time.


Is it weird to think that 4 years ago was the last time that there was remotely anything to do with other universes, and that doesn't really look to change this year with the focus of the film being U7 and Earth once more - 4 stories in a row of such.

With the TOP I also worry that we have seen the best of 7 other universes immediately reducing the scope they set out when establishing the multiverse. People always cite - "what about the other 4 universes who didn't compete" or "what about destroyed universes". But I can't really see them adding in extra previously destroyed universes to explore when they have so many that are untapped. The 4 higher class universes could be home to strong fighters and lots of adventures.

but realistically we are looking at those 4 non fighting universes fromt the ToP. U6 and U11 have also been the primary universes of interest. Bringing us down to only 6 universes from 11 additional opened up when the multiverse was established. From this I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if they feel they've sufficiently explored U6 and U11 - I know Jiren was teased as a future rival for Goku moving forward... but so was Hit previously and very little followup happened there. U6 already had its arc, and U11 had theirs as the main obstacles of the ToP.

Whilst the Manga only arcs in U7 have still been enjoyable to me and I'm optimistic for Super Hero, it does furstrate me that such a concept that could've brought back exciting adventure in DB has been so mishandled. Especially when Toriyama seems to have embraced early DB humour but not its sense of exploration and adventure.

Everyone praises world building of Super, but again whats been the point of world buildling to not use it - and is it even good world building to say oh X exists rather than organically show X.

[capsulecorp]

This doesn't seem that weird to me. I appreciate that DBS hasn't devolved into a GT-style multiversal romp. After all, we already saw a LOT of new characters from other universes during the TOP already and, at the end of the day, I don't think any of them had much to offer. If you compare the U6 Saiyans to Broly, for example, it seems clear that the mere fact that they are from another universe doesn't make them more interesting... in fact, its the opposite, the fact that they have no real history with the characters we're familiar with makes them a lot LESS interesting. Also, in general I think people may be getting a little burnt out of "multiverse" concepts, especially with the past couple years of Marvel and Marvel copycats

All that said, I'm surprised we haven't learned more about what Hit wanted with the dimension-travelling cube. Or was that an anime-only addition?

Finally, what I think we can expect is to eventually learn more about Zeno and his attendants and the Grand Priest. To me, those are much more interesting characters, from both a story perspective and an aesthetic perspective. It might happen sooner than we think, too.... after all, 7-3 is still out there somewhere with copied angel powers.

[BWri]

Part of me sincerely wishes that the concept of the Super Dragonballs was arguably somewhat more similar to GT and that they had to be gathered within a certain timeframe or the universe would be destroyed - and that they were distributed amongst multiple universes. It would've been a way to split up the core team and get interesting dynamics if due to timing they couldn't just go universe to universe as a large group but required smaller groups and each group needed a strong leading member thus splitting the Goku/Vegeta status quo.

I almost think that the Super Dragon Balls are so large in order to completely sidestep any potential adventures. Only a god beyond gods can collect those things.

I like all of the Universes in the anime and feel there's a ton of potential in each, but I think U11 has the greatest potential since we still haven't seen Jiren's Demon/Evil-doer and the threat level seems high if it requires the entire team of Pride Troopers to deal with the Kaiju. I like the potential of U6 as well. There's great excuses for the whole cast to go there. A potential for Vegeta to tap into his roots, for Goku to find more pupils, and even for Piccolo to meet more of his fellow Namekians and maybe even gain another fusion partner.

[ZodiacBeast]

I honestly wish that the universes had been merged together at the end of the TOP. How would that work with 17 only wishing for the erased universes to be revived? I don't know, but it would have been an interesting twist. Would Beerus and Whis keep their positions because their universe won, or would they still have to "apply" for the position alongside the other Angels and GoDs? And we could have seen the universes that didn't take part in the TOP.

Lost opportunity, I tell ya.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I think a basic multiverse requires parallels to each other, which means all universes need to have Saiyans in them. The Spider-Verse and the DC Infinite Earths are examples of that, with different Spider-Men and different Justice Leaves.






But it's difficult to create a variety of Saiyans for 12 universes. All they have is pacifist (Renso, Kyabe) and warlike (Kalifla, Vegeta, Goku); there's no in-between that could work out, not as far as I know anyway.

[Jord]

If they really wanted to use the multiverse they could use versions of the characters from Z, GT, the movies but I guess Heroes already does that. Heck, they could even use the manga versions, like how Turtles Forever used the original mirage comics Turtles and displayed them in a black and white comic book style.

[Cipher]

I think it's been largely fine, but shrinking the stage back to Universe 7 for the stories following the Tournament of Power does feel a little odd, huh?

Especially because the erased universes #13-18 and #17's wish at the end of the tournament created such a perfect avenue for further expansion. You could still pick up on that thread and say his wish brought them back too.

I don't think you necessarily have to road-trip them all (though I also don't think you shouldn't), but the Universe 6, Future Trunks and Universal Survival arcs all do a fairly good job of constantly expanding the scale and stakes a la the original run, as they involve antagonists from outside universes and increasingly large multiversal ramifications.

Then again, the original run has its step backward in scale via the Cell arc as well.

For what it's worth, the manga in its post-anime arcs seems to have pivoted from world expansion as the inter-arc connectivity to character study dovetailed with martial-arts development (end of the ToP through Moro through Granolah), which works well enough, but its certainly different.

[Skar]

I think it's been largely fine, but shrinking the stage back to Universe 7 for the stories following the Tournament of Power does feel a little odd, huh?

Especially because the erased universes #13-18 and #17's wish at the end of the tournament created such a perfect avenue for further expansion. You could still pick up on that thread and say his wish brought them back too.

I don't think you necessarily have to road-trip them all (though I also don't think you shouldn't), but the Universe 6, Future Trunks and Universal Survival arcs all do a fairly good job of constantly expanding the scale and stakes a la the original run, as they involve antagonists from outside universes and increasingly large multiversal ramifications.

Then again, the original run has its step backward in scale via the Cell arc as well.

I think they might've been similar situations for scaling back. Freeza saga introduced the strongest aliens in the universe so Toriyama might've felt there wasn't much left to explore in the rest of the (mortal) universe. The RR artificial humans originated on Earth, Buu was an ancient demon who happened to be sealed on Earth, and Dabura was the king of the Demon Realm which was more of a pocket dimension. The only other planet they visited after the Freeza saga was New Namek and Kaioshin world.

The ToP introduced the strongest in the multiverse with the highest God threatening multiple universes. It's difficult to top the ToP in terms of stakes since any multiverse threat would pale in comparison to Zeno. They would either have to have the gods of other universes killed again or Zeno being oblivious to what's happening again. Having only local U7 antagonists means they're that universe's problem and the story only needs to address that Beerus is too lazy to get involved. I'm curious to see where the next manga arc will take place and if it's still in U7.

[Koitsukai]

Universes 13-18 coming back could open a lot of possibilities. A lot of villains or heroes, and even rogue hakaishin could be introduced, making it a multiversal encounter without Zeno watching over it. We still have U 1-4, that were too good for the ToP, so 10 universes could come into play if they wanted to.

I feel they might be saving that thread for after EoZ. After the saiyans have finished their divine training, with a new generation of sidekicks (Goten, Trunks, Uub, Pan) joining Gohan, Piccolo and 17. As it is, it's already too much what has happened in what we always thought was a time of peace.
Like a GT 2.0, in 1996 they went back to explore the universe, so maybe this time they can go back to explore the multiverse?

It's also funny that not even SDBH is exploring those lost universes.

[Skar]

I feel they might be saving that thread for after EoZ. After the saiyans have finished their divine training, with a new generation of sidekicks (Goten, Trunks, Uub, Pan) joining Gohan, Piccolo and 17. As it is, it's already too much what has happened in what we always thought was a time of peace.
Like a GT 2.0, in 1996 they went back to explore the universe, so maybe this time they can go back to explore the multiverse?

When I hear the idea of the next generation, I always wonder what Goku and Vegeta would be doing in that situation. Super Hero seems to have them training off world so they're not around. That could work for a film against relatively minor antagonists but I'm not sure about an entire series especially if it involves traveling to other universes. Goku and Vegeta are willing to leave Earth to train but the others only if it's necessary like to Namek or the two DBS tournaments.

[Shorty GZ2]

I don't mind the refocus back onto Universe 7, since ToP has pretty much blown the load in one go early in a green/space-y void, & the past 3 post-ToP things have shown there's still some worth in exploring U7 and characters from there that somehow managed to slip past being scouted for the ToP (...and Super Hero lmao). Heroes is basically handling that multiversal trotting and plot stuff (and if you reeally want more of that, you can read a fanmanga like DB Kakumei or something like that), but I can see why people would want that but handled better in mainline (somehow). Erased universes/the universes that didn't participate in the ToP do sound like they have a good deal of story potential as well.

[Koitsukai]

I feel they might be saving that thread for after EoZ. After the saiyans have finished their divine training, with a new generation of sidekicks (Goten, Trunks, Uub, Pan) joining Gohan, Piccolo and 17. As it is, it's already too much what has happened in what we always thought was a time of peace.
Like a GT 2.0, in 1996 they went back to explore the universe, so maybe this time they can go back to explore the multiverse?

When I hear the idea of the next generation, I always wonder what Goku and Vegeta would be doing in that situation. Super Hero seems to have them training off world so they're not around. That could work for a film against relatively minor antagonists but I'm not sure about an entire series especially if it involves traveling to other universes. Goku and Vegeta are willing to leave Earth to train but the others only if it's necessary like to Namek or the two DBS tournaments.

I should've clarified that the new gen would be assisting the now hakaishin-like saiyans. With 6-10 universes there should be enough villains for everybody to have fun, and they wouldn't even need to be on the same planet/universe.
The U6 and U11 warriors joining the guys is something SDBH is already doing, so hopefully that concept -not the execution- will be picked up by Toyo or Tori.

[Xeno Goku Black]

It's unfortunate really that Dragon Ball has this big multiverse written into its story and we see next to nothing of it.

Even amongst Universe 7. As far as planets go until somewhat recently you only ever saw Namek. The Moro arc showed a few and now they've shown Cereal but ain't much is it?

Once this current arc is over they need to do something there. They've gotta move on from Universe 7. Who else can even be out there? Characters are literally wishing to be the strongest now.

As terrible as it was GT at least had a good concept. Super needs to do that but do it right. Have them go to another Universe and explore or something.

The manga is just constant fight after fight. It gets old.

[Mr Baggins]

This is one of those ideas in the series that I feel the fandom consistently misunderstands.

From the moment this "multiverse" concept was introduced, it was framed solely from the perspective of Goku wanting to fight stronger/weirder guys. Super delivered on that promise with the Universe 6 arc. It then delivered on that promise again, this time on a multiversal scale, with the Tournament of Power.

But also, is there fundamentally any difference between exploring more of the seventh universe and exploring any other universe? Aliens are aliens.

[Shorty GZ2]

This is one of those ideas in the series that I feel the fandom consistently misunderstands.

From the moment this "multiverse" concept was introduced, it was framed solely from the perspective of Goku wanting to fight stronger/weirder guys. Super delivered on that promise with the Universe 6 arc. It then delivered on that promise again, this time on a multiversal scale, with the Tournament of Power.

But also, is there fundamentally any difference between exploring more of the seventh universe and exploring any other universe? Aliens are aliens.

I guess they want that "grander-scope" type/feeling adventure

[Xeno Goku Black]

But also, is there fundamentally any difference between exploring more of the seventh universe and exploring any other universe? Aliens are aliens.

Well how many other reasons are they going to be able to find for bringing out new villains?

Frieza was already meant to be the strongest in the Universe, by far as well. So they've had to bring in villains from the future, villains that have been sealed away, villains that sleep for decades at a time, villains that are stranded on an desolate planet, villains that have been locked away in prison and now villains just wishing to be the strongest.

They can go to other universes and have more freedom than keep pulling stuff like this which becomes more farfetched each time they do it.

[kemuri07]

This is one of those ideas in the series that I feel the fandom consistently misunderstands.

From the moment this "multiverse" concept was introduced, it was framed solely from the perspective of Goku wanting to fight stronger/weirder guys. Super delivered on that promise with the Universe 6 arc. It then delivered on that promise again, this time on a multiversal scale, with the Tournament of Power.

But also, is there fundamentally any difference between exploring more of the seventh universe and exploring any other universe? Aliens are aliens.

I think that's kind of the problem here: It's just the same old same old. The idea behind a multi-verse is that it can be a universe of literally anything. The rules that once governed reality completely upend itself. Ideally you can have a story in which Goku and co are trapped in a different universe in which they are at a significant disadvantage.

[capsulecorp]

But also, is there fundamentally any difference between exploring more of the seventh universe and exploring any other universe? Aliens are aliens.

Well how many other reasons are they going to be able to find for bringing out new villains?

Frieza was already meant to be the strongest in the Universe, by far as well. So they've had to bring in villains from the future, villains that have been sealed away, villains that sleep for decades at a time, villains that are stranded on an desolate planet, villains that have been locked away in prison and now villains just wishing to be the strongest.

They can go to other universes and have more freedom than keep pulling stuff like this which becomes more farfetched each time they do it.

I actually disagree with this line of thinking. To me, the premise behind characters like Cell or Buu is way more interesting than Jiren and the rest of the TOP. The idea of a multiverse as an "excuse" to introduce characters without any context or relationship to the rest of the world makes them much less interesting and less appealing. It's a really lazy plot device.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I actually disagree with this line of thinking. To me, the premise behind characters like Cell or Buu is way more interesting than Jiren and the rest of the TOP. The idea of a multiverse as an "excuse" to introduce characters without any context or relationship to the rest of the world makes them much less interesting and less appealing. It's a really lazy plot device.

That's a whole other thing entirely though. They can still make an interesting character and premise out of a character from another universe rather than continually performing these story ass pulls with the characters.

It worked well for Cell and Buu because if Frieza was from the present then these two were from the future and the past.

But how many more times can they pull off the same trick of "Oh there's actually an even stronger monster still out there who nobody has ever heard about because he had his mind wiped a billion years ago but now he's got his memory back" before it just gets ridiculous?

Because there ain't meant to be anywhere out there actively stronger than Frieza was supposed to be. By the Buu Saga the characters got so powerful that they powered and they could feel it fun the afterlife which is why they have to keep coming out with these convenient excuses.

But they can use characters from other universes because there's no reason why they can't have more Jiren's and then some. They still need to make them interesting but it makes sense.

[Mr Baggins]

I think that's kind of the problem here: It's just the same old same old.

I disagree, actually. The most common remark about Super's approach to its multiverse is "not enough worldbuilding" because the characters don't leave their homebase, but that critique rings hollow when Universe 7 is demonstrably the most equipped to expand and build upon dragon world; exceptions aside.

From the original manga to Battle of Gods to as recently as the current manga arc (i.e. the Namekians' origins, or Freeza's empire) there are constant additions to pre-existing foundations that change the audience's understanding of the series. These are the things that enrich the series' lore, even when it's just Toriyama doing something completely out of left field to upend a reader's preconceptions about so-and-so.

That is far, far more interesting to me than Goku and Vegeta being stranded on Planet Boogaloo in Universe 12 fighting some dude with no connection to anyone or anything prior. Recontextualizing what you thought you knew is Toriyama's MO, not random setpieces.

So they've had to bring in villains from the future, villains that have been sealed away, villains that sleep for decades at a time, villains that are stranded on an desolate planet, villains that have been locked away in prison and now villains just wishing to be the strongest.

Right, so they're forced to get creative and weird because of the limitations Freeza placed on the series. Cool. I like that.

I also like how the manga frames everything as a chain reaction. Granolah's arc started with events from Moro's arc, and Moro was implied to be unbound because of Boo's destruction. Battle of Gods leads to Resurrection 'F' leads to Universe 6 leads to Future Trunks leads to the Universe Survival arc in all kinds of weird, unique ways. It's a domino effect.

I hope we keep getting whacky farfetched premises like these, particularly because Dragon Ball is founded on them. Generic roadtrips to generic galaxies or universes à la GT is trite and boring.