Mishandling of the Multiverse

[Goku9001]

I do feel this to some degree. It feels a bit odd that we haven't reached the surface of any of the universes, but I can't really see what the point is in exploring any of these universes outside of giving Goku and Vegeta more powerful opponents to battle. Goku and Vegeta already overcame the strongest fighters in the multiverse so there's not much of a point in revisiting those universes. Furthermore, we didn't really get to witness any interesting character interactions that were really worth exploring. The only universes that I believe are worth exploring are Universes 6 and 11. Universe 6 is a special case because it draws parallels with Universe 7. Because of that, characters actually established meaningful connections that are worth exploring in the future.

Vegeta connected with Cabba through his Saiyan heritage and familiarity with Planet Sadala which presents an interesting opportunity for Goku as well as the readers to understand what Planet Vegeta was like. Likewise, Goku can act as a mentor for both Caulifa and Kale. Piccolo can get to know and train with the other Namekians in Universe 6. Frost still has his unresolved vengeance towards both Vegeta and Frieza that can be explored. Perhaps Frost developed his own form in pursuit of his revenge much like Frieza did against Goku? Maybe Hit will acquire new abilities due to his rivalry with Goku?

Aside from that, I think the concept of the multiverse has been implemented fairly well. The multiverse expanded the scope and our understanding of the world and with it came with larger scale threats. We also have preexisting lore that had been expanded on including the concept of time travel in the Goku Black Saga or the existence of the Galactic Time Patrol and Moro's involvement against the Kaioshins in the Moro arc.

I know people have their own issues with the Granolah arc but one of the things I believe was executed very well is how Moro's involvement through 73, Zuno, Frieza, and Goku's past have all been neatly interwoven in the story. I'd rather see more of this rather than exploring worlds or stories that are ultimately disconnected.

[Xeno Goku Black]

]
Right, so they're forced to get creative and weird because of the limitations Freeza placed on the series.

But it's not creative. It's the same thing over and over whilst becoming more forced and silly as time goes on because they're running out of ideas.

[Mr Baggins]

It's the same thing over and over

I... what?

Amigo, you just described six completely different ways (you even left out some of them) that villains can be and have been stronger than Freeza, which you actually wouldn't have been able to do at all if it really was as straightforward as "villain is stronger because he's from a different universe". We already did that with Jiren.

The latter is bereft of ideas. Having the same kind of escalation happen over and over sounds like something you're advocating for here, not me.

[capsulecorp]

But how many more times can they pull off the same trick of "Oh there's actually an even stronger monster still out there who nobody has ever heard about because he had his mind wiped a billion years ago but now he's got his memory back" before it just gets ridiculous?

Well, Dragon Ball doesn't need to go on forever. If Toriyama doesn't actually have an idea that he's interested in exploring, if he needs to introduce a stronger villain just because an increasingly narrow minded and conservative fanbase expects one, I would just rather he go do something else.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Amigo, you just described six completely different ways (you even left out some of them) that villains can be and have been stronger than Freeza, which you actually wouldn't have been able to do at all if it really was as straightforward as "villain is stronger because he's from a different universe".

Its the same trick just with a different spin. Buu being sealed for years, Beerus sleeping for years and Moro being imprisoned for years is the same thing. Its even done for someone like Demigra in Xenoverse who had been imprisoned in the Crack of Time for years.

Its stale.

Jiren was merely a strong guy. That was pretty much his entire premise. I'm not saying that they should use villains from other universes and have them be strong and evil and that's it. They can give them as much of an interesting premise as they'd like but they wouldn't require another gimmick to explain where they've been the whole time yet again.

[Xeno Goku Black]

If he needs to introduce a stronger villain just because an increasingly narrow minded and conservative fanbase expects one, I would just rather he go do something else.

That's what this series has been since midway through the original Dragon Ball, it's not going to change now. The series is always going to follow that same pattern of new villains popping up out of nowhere, stronger than the last one, requiring the heroes to come out with new transformations to overcome them.

Again another reason why they should go to other universes because if they put an increased emphasis on adventure and world building then the series doesn't have to constantly be back to back fighting.

[Shorty GZ2]

I've already responded to the topic, but I guess I'll say some more stuff. I don't mind the current focus on expanding what there is to offer in U7 plus (comically) having to come up with explanations for why there are numerous people stronger than Freeza/the prev strong bad guy, and now why they somehow missed out on being selected for the ToP. The latter which spans not only just U7, but for the other competing universes, though I suppose that leaves out their own arbitrary explanations of why other strong guys weren't in their squads at the time + those universes that didn't compete + "the destroyed universes" (if Tori/Toyo/Toei choose to use em).

[Mr Baggins]

Its the same trick just with a different spin. Buu being sealed for years, Beerus sleeping for years and Moro being imprisoned for years is the same thing.

But that's ludicrous. Boo and Moro are the only two villains in mainline canon with any real parallel in that regard, and it's purposeful because the sealing of their power is connected in the context of the story.

Cell is a biological machine that partly had Freeza's DNA and came from the future. Beerus is one of the highest gods; like the Kaioshin, he doesn't need raison d'etre to be stronger than Freeza. Zamasu got stronger because he stole Goku's body, meaning his Universe 10 origins are besides the point. Broly was stranded on some backwater planet but also hadn't tapped into his potential. Saganbo was borrowing power that wasn't his own. Granolah made a wish.

That's a lot of variability that isn't just recycled stuff. Why? Because having to work around restrictions tends to yield more inventive solutions than "random alien is randomly stronger". Ultimately, there's no creative benefit that's absolutely essential to another universe unless you're making the next antagonist Jiren 2.0 or some evil rogue GoD/Angel that you've already seen a bajillion times on fanfiction.net.

[Xeno Goku Black]

But that's ludicrous. Boo and Moro are the only two villains in mainline canon with any real parallel in that regard, and it's purposeful because the sealing of their power is connected in the context of the story.

Yes in that more specific regard yes. They are just different spins of the same kind of idea. That idea being "There's an even more powerful guy out there but nobody knew about him because he's been ....... for X years".

Buu wasn't even the first one that applied to either, just the first canon one after Frieza. It's been done with King Piccolo, Dr Wheelo and Bojack before him. Beerus, Broly and Moro, same idea just with a different twist on it.

Characters who are all powerful and yet never mentioned at all even by characters who should know them.

Cell was obviously done differently, I have no problem with that but whatever they are doing with Super Hero appears to be the same thing again because they have no choice.

Because they already topped out at Frieza, they can't just introduce an interesting character with an interesting premise who just happens to be all powerful from Universe 7. They have to instead repeat the same tricks they've already done multiple times before.

Beerus wasn't interesting because he slept. He was interesting because he was an all powerful God of Destruction. You could just have an all powerful being from another universe who was something else interesting instead.

Hit was interesting for what his role was and they didn't have to explain themselves for why he's so powerful and why they didn't know of him because he was just from somewhere else.

[Skar]

Yes in that more specific regard yes. They are just different spins of the same kind of idea. That idea being "There's an even more powerful guy out there but nobody knew about him because he's been ....... for X years".

Toriyama did say he was struggling after the Freeza saga and that he couldn't come up with anyone stronger than Buu. I think that's why most ideas were suggestions he chose to work on and some were inspired by previous antagonists. If he was willing to end it after getting burned out and running out of ideas before, it's bound to happen again! Plus we're close to EoZ but we have to wait to see if he changed his mind about going past it.

[capsulecorp]

Yes in that more specific regard yes. They are just different spins of the same kind of idea. That idea being "There's an even more powerful guy out there but nobody knew about him because he's been ....... for X years".

Toriyama did say he was struggling after the Freeza saga and that he couldn't come up with anyone stronger than Buu. I think that's why most ideas were suggestions he chose to work on and some were inspired by previous antagonists. If he was willing to end it after getting burned out and running out of ideas before, it's bound to happen again! Plus we're close to EoZ but we have to wait to see if he changed his mind about going past it.

I can certainly imagine it being difficult to think of antagonists that are more threatening than Buu! I don't understand why introducing another "universe" would make it easier though. The challenge is creating the character's design, identity, abilities, background and thematic elements, and so on. Simply "adding more space" doesn't help with most of those problems.

[Mr Baggins]

Super can end at EoZ. That's fine.

Lord knows it has no business continuing past another arc or two. Maybe one more movie. It had its run.

[Skar]

I can certainly imagine it being difficult to think of antagonists that are more threatening than Buu! I don't understand why introducing another "universe" would make it easier though. The challenge is creating the character's design, identity, abilities, background and thematic elements, and so on. Simply "adding more space" doesn't help with most of those problems.

That's true. I think introducing other universes is similar to what happened in the Saiyan saga by introducing aliens then the strongest alien in the universe. The later U7 antagonists were either dormant or achieved their power/created after Freeza died. Other universes is an easy way to introduce "active" antagonists without needing to explain what they've been doing this whole time since mortals don't have a way to travel between universes. If Hit lived in some other galaxy in U7, someone probably would've hired him to kill Freeza by now. The Pride Troopers are an intergalactic super hero team so they probably would've taken care of Freeza and other major threats.

The reason I don't mind the story being in U7 is because they would probably run into the same problem of recycling ideas if they kept introducing antagonists from other universes. Hit was the strongest in their twin universe and Jiren was the strongest mortal in the multiverse at the time. The ideas wouldn't be too different than what they're currently doing in U7. Another ancient demon older than Buu, like Broly and Granolah and gained their power after the ToP, or another cyborg except in a different universe. If those did happen, that universe's heroes and GoD would deal with it first before asking Goku and Vegeta for help. If they're U7's problem then the Z fighters have to get involved since Beerus is too lazy.

[Goku9001]

Super can end at EoZ. That's fine.

Lord knows it has no business continuing past another arc or two. Maybe one more movie. It had its run.

Personally, I think EoZ was a proper ending for Z in the context of Z. Vegeta finally submitted to Goku in their rivalry whereas Goku made it apparent that he wanted the future generation to overtake him. Super has since overridden that with Vegeta in his own pursuit of power to surpass Goku and Goku still wanting to fight the multiverse' strongest fighters. The Moro arc also supports the idea of Goku being at the forefront and training to overcome Moro whereas before, he may have opted for Gohan or Gotenks to deal with the threat.

I think ending Super with EoZ where both Goku and Vegeta have not openly acknowledged their own limits doesn't make sense. They'd be shoehorning it in and giving the mantle to Oob with no real reason to at this point.

[Skar]

I think ending Super with EoZ where both Goku and Vegeta have not openly acknowledged their own limits doesn't make sense. They'd be shoehorning it in and giving the mantle to Oob with no real reason to at this point.

I think DBS will kind of circle back to where they were at the end of the Buu saga. They could acknowledge their limits and only difference is that it's a lot higher due to all the additional forms. In the updated Kanzenban release, Vegeta still wants to surpass Goku in the last panel of the manga so it could work with him pursuing that throughout DBS but never getting there.

[Mr Baggins]

Despite its open-endedness, or rather because of its open-endedness, EoZ is the perfect send off for the journey of a guy who lives to test himself and reach new heights because he enjoys it. It doesn't try to indulge in some grand conclusion for him. Indeed, to do so would diminish everything that drives him as a character and window into the series' worldview.

Vegeta's comment in the updated Kanzenban edition only accentuates the importance of an ending that never truly ends. Oob isn't all that much more than a narrative device to drive home why Goku isn't really looking for a successor, despite taking on one; he's just in it for himself, as always. I'll be just peachy if we never go beyond this point, mainly because I don't think we need to. It's the ultimate thematic summary, and culmination, of Dragon Ball.

Super is currently at this juncture where it's nearing EoZ and running on creative fumes anyway (which a multiverse certainly isn't going to fix for aforementioned reasons), despite doing relatively well for itself in the beginning. I say we let sleeping dogs lie.

[ClutchBangstrip]

I think people just have to give the franchise some time and recognize that DB is in uncharted territory as a Japanese "Manga" property. It's slowly expanding and trying different things.

[Goku9001]

Despite its open-endedness, or rather because of its open-endedness, EoZ is the perfect send off for the journey of a guy who lives to test himself and reach new heights because he enjoys it. It doesn't try to indulge in some grand conclusion for him. Indeed, to do so would diminish everything that drives him as a character and window into the series' worldview.

Vegeta's comment in the updated Kanzenban edition only accentuates the importance of an ending that never truly ends. Oob isn't all that much more than a narrative device to drive home why Goku isn't really looking for a successor, despite taking on one; he's just in it for himself, as always. I'll be just peachy if we never go beyond this point, mainly because I don't think we need to. It's the ultimate thematic summary, and culmination, of Dragon Ball.

Super is currently at this juncture where it's nearing EoZ and running on creative fumes anyway (which a multiverse certainly isn't going to fix for aforementioned reasons), despite doing relatively well for itself in the beginning. I say we let sleeping dogs lie.

That's a great point and I agree that the ending fits Goku's character perfectly. Goku has always been in it for himself first and foremost and it's in his blood to pursue greater challenges to better himself. This is something Vegeta even talks about during his "#1" speech and how that differentiates Goku from him all of the other people he's come across. Vegeta's sentiment made when Goku talks about training Oob really nailed Vegeta's acceptance of Goku's character. Super even addresses Goku's pursuit of just fighting stronger opponents once the U6 tournament rolls around.

I think I take greater issue is that Goku and Vegeta has not reached this point yet. Vegeta hasn't completely accepted Goku's philosophy of being stronger just to pursue stronger opponents. Furthermore, Goku and Vegeta haven't reached the point where they have reached their limits. Part of what compels Goku to train with Oob is that Goku felt as though there was no one left to challenge him. No one left to push him. No one left to allow himself to break his own limits. Goku had already surpassed Gohan and Vegeta who were established to be the other two strongest masters in the world. That's not the case in Super. The Granola arc arguably leads us in that direction as Goku feels as though there was no one left in the world that can challenge him but there are different avenues the story can take to present that challenge beyond just EoZ.

At the moment, I don't really see why Goku would abandon everything just to train with Oob. He still hasn't recognized his own limits, still has a significant room to grow by training with Whis and to top it all off, he's already pursued a mentorship with both Caulifa/Kale (anime) as well as with Broly and Goku is still exploring other ways to improve his strength in spite of that.

The ending itself works very well but Super hasn't properly set itself up for EoZ and I think it's a little premature to cap the series off with it just yet. But you are right. They are are at this juncture where it needs to decide how it'll set up EoZ if they truly plan on ending Super with it. It could just be treated as another short adventure like Battle of Gods or Resurrection F for all we know.

[Skar]

At the moment, I don't really see why Goku would abandon everything just to train with Oob. He still hasn't recognized his own limits, still has a significant room to grow by training with Whis and to top it all off, he's already pursued a mentorship with both Caulifa/Kale (anime) as well as with Broly and Goku is still exploring other ways to improve his strength in spite of that

I think it could be a similar ending to the Buu saga. Broly might be the same as Gohan and Goku helps him learn to control his power. Broly isn't interesting in fighting so Goku probably moves on after finishing their training together. Once Goku surpasses Beerus, Goku might not have anyone except Uub and seeing how far his potential could take him. As long as DBS ends with Goku being the strongest or at least strongest mortal since he probably won't surpass Whis or the GP, Uub would serve the same purpose.

[Goku9001]

I think it could be a similar ending to the Buu saga. Broly might be the same as Gohan and Goku helps him learn to control his power. Broly isn't interesting in fighting so Goku probably moves on after finishing their training together. Once Goku surpasses Beerus, Goku might not have anyone except Uub and seeing how far his potential could take him. As long as DBS ends with Goku being the strongest or at least strongest mortal since he probably won't surpass Whis or the GP, Uub would serve the same purpose.

Well, my point moreso is that Goku still has challengers out there that can fight him so as long as that is the case, I don't really see Goku abandoning his training with Whis just to mentor Oob. Goku has already undergone a mentorship relationship with Broly and his lifestyle still hasn't changed. If the intention is to end the series with EoZ, then I don't think we are that point yet. Once Goku surpasses Beerus, I can envision him pursuing Oob like you suggested provided there is something special about Oob. I just don't think we are nearing that point yet. Beerus is still seen as an immovable roadblock for Goku and Vegeta.