Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by pixie_misa » Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:46 pm

Not to get overly personal but... eh.

Honestly I got a huge kick out of that episode, and I'm trans.

Trashy and regressive? Yeah, maybe a bit. It's a product of its time for sure, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have fun watching. I feel pretty similar about a lot of other similar gags throughout other shows during the 90s.

In a time when there wasn't much in the way of representation, it was the kind of thing that did make me feel seen in a sense, so I do have a soft spot for it. I mean I've got a Birdo tattoo. She was never intended to be positive trans rep, but I feel a lot of power in claiming her for my own.

So really at the end of the day my feelings on that episode wind up amounting to "Fuck yeah, Trunks in a dress, lookin good as hell"

Ofc, trans people aren't a monolith, and opinions on stuff like this are gonna vary tons from person to person, but I figured it was worth tossing my own view in, because this stuff does have some nuance to it.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by super michael » Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:54 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:35 am
Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:14 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:08 am

Trunks started HRT to retain his youthful prettiness and enter the world of femboy modeling. Pretty sure she's going to come out as trans any day now.
So it has been written
Image
I always forget about that episode. God, it was awful and transphobic.
Master Roshi wore a disguise to trick his students, just like Trunks wore a disguise to trick the evil alien. I don't see why Trunks wearing a disguise is wrong, especially when it is to try and save the people from that monster.
Trunks not being comfortable wearing that clothes there is nothing wrong. We have our likes and dislikes in what clothes we wear. There are those who are super picky in what clothes they wear.

Master Roshi wore a disguise to prevent his student from winning, so they think there will always be someone stronger. If they know that Master Roshi was Jackie Chan, they might still get over confident and stop training.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:49 pm

super michael wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:54 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:35 am
Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:14 am

So it has been written
Image
I always forget about that episode. God, it was awful and transphobic.
Master Roshi wore a disguise to trick his students, just like Trunks wore a disguise to trick the evil alien. I don't see why Trunks wearing a disguise is wrong, especially when it is to try and save the people from that monster.
Trunks not being comfortable wearing that clothes there is nothing wrong. We have our likes and dislikes in what clothes we wear. There are those who are super picky in what clothes they wear.

Master Roshi wore a disguise to prevent his student from winning, so they think there will always be someone stronger. If they know that Master Roshi was Jackie Chan, they might still get over confident and stop training.
I was going to drop the discussion and move on to save us all the grief of me repeating myself ad nauseum but if you insist:

Making jokes or deceivers out of men or 'people perceived to be men' by having them dress up in clothes is bad, actually. For both cishet understanding of queerness and for queer people's self-esteem.

I wouldn't give the series shit if I thought the message was pro-crossdressing or pro-trans. Instead it's just playing up tropes I am utterly exhausted by and make the series actively not-fun to consume.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by pixie_misa » Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:04 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:49 pm Making jokes or deceivers out of men or 'people perceived to be men' by having them dress up in clothes is bad, actually. For both cishet understanding of queerness and for queer people's self-esteem.
Well, at least regarding gags from shows this old, I can assure you this isn't necessarily a universal experience.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:16 pm

pixie_misa wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:04 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:49 pm Making jokes or deceivers out of men or 'people perceived to be men' by having them dress up in clothes is bad, actually. For both cishet understanding of queerness and for queer people's self-esteem.
Well, at least regarding gags from shows this old, I can assure you this isn't necessarily a universal experience.
I don't think anything is a universal experience but I do know it's possible to just...think about it first?
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Geraldo » Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:36 am

Sad to say but all the time we spent of DBS just doesn't worth it.

"DBZ Movie 1", the Garlic Junior Saga, and even Hearts' (not baked enough due to time constraints) plan are more exciting than the modern DB stories, which are cheesy and only meant to promote merchandise.

I don't feel creativity at all from these past 12 years. "Ohh, you like Dragon Ball? Here are some 'new' hair dye and color swaps transformations for you! What? It's not enough? here are some more Frieza, Bardock and scouters for you! Happy, nerds? Pay up!". Sadly, it was a waste of our time.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:58 am

We got cool new queer characters like Kale and Caulifla, Zamasu, Black, Ribrianne and her followers, a cool new trio in Broli, Lemo and Cheelai, Tomioka Atsuhiro battle strategies and plenty of animators and directors managing to stretch. We also got the gods and their interactions, which have been fun. There's also Ultra Instinct, which serves as a throughline for Gokuu and others to potentially develop through.

So many people have been busting their asses and not sleeping to create new and exciting Dragon Ball. The idea that nobody is trying to be original is so off-base.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:27 pm

And the second half of Dragon Ball don't feel like the first.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Feb 12, 2022 2:00 pm

What people ignore is that this also comes down to nostalgia. Of course people who grew up with DBZ will think that DBZ is the "real Dragon Ball" while Super doesn't feel like it.

For a kid born in 2011 who grew up with Super, I'm sure they'll say that Super feels more like Dragon Ball than DBZ or the OG DB (which they probably won't even know exists).

It's all a matter of perspective and this doesn't necessarily make DBS bad. It's just not the show you grew up with.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by DBPirate » Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:47 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 2:00 pm What people ignore is that this also comes down to nostalgia. Of course people who grew up with DBZ will think that DBZ is the "real Dragon Ball" while Super doesn't feel like it.

For a kid born in 2011 who grew up with Super, I'm sure they'll say that Super feels more like Dragon Ball than DBZ or the OG DB (which they probably won't even know exists).

It's all a matter of perspective and this doesn't necessarily make DBS bad. It's just not the show you grew up with.
Agreed. I watched the show from the Pilaf arc thru to the Broly movie so I have no real nostalgic bias for any one part of the series. I felt that while each part of the story brought something different to the table and expanded the universe, it still "felt like" Dragon Ball. I thought GT was very tonally jarring coming off the Buu Saga, but I haven't seen it in its entirety.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by pixie_misa » Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:17 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 2:00 pm What people ignore is that this also comes down to nostalgia. Of course people who grew up with DBZ will think that DBZ is the "real Dragon Ball" while Super doesn't feel like it.

For a kid born in 2011 who grew up with Super, I'm sure they'll say that Super feels more like Dragon Ball than DBZ or the OG DB (which they probably won't even know exists).

It's all a matter of perspective and this doesn't necessarily make DBS bad. It's just not the show you grew up with.
Honestly, having first watched Super immediatley after a fresh re-watch of DB and Z, I actually found Super on average to at least be more enjoyable than most of the second half of the Buu arc, even if it's never quite as good as the heights of the original series.

GT honestly felt like far more of a departure and definitely went in its own weird directions. If anything I'd say one of Super's bigger problems is that it sticks *too close* to what generally defines Dragon Ball in the public consciousness, likely a side effect of it being a modern revival of a nostalgic property.

It's probably a cliche observation, but GT is the sequel with a lot of bold and interesting ideas paired with really questionable execution, while Super plays it far more "safe" with its ideas but executes them a lot more smoothly.

Anyways I think the best way to watch Super, and something i've suggested to people checking it out for the first time, is to try to remember the 12 year old you who was all over the original series. That 12 year old will have a blast with Super, just saying.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Geraldo » Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:38 am

The fact Super keeps latching to nostalgia moments and retread iconic scenes (don't believe me? check out how Bardock defeated Gas last chapter) shows that it's unimaginative and lacks the self-esteem of standing as it's own product.

To this day, I remember how Piccolo was needlessly executed by Frieza in the "Resurrection 'F'" anime retelling, for the cheesy comment they expectrled us fans to say ("ohh, it's just like what he did against Nappa").

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Jord » Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:23 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:49 pm
super michael wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:54 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:35 am

I always forget about that episode. God, it was awful and transphobic.
Master Roshi wore a disguise to trick his students, just like Trunks wore a disguise to trick the evil alien. I don't see why Trunks wearing a disguise is wrong, especially when it is to try and save the people from that monster.
Trunks not being comfortable wearing that clothes there is nothing wrong. We have our likes and dislikes in what clothes we wear. There are those who are super picky in what clothes they wear.

Master Roshi wore a disguise to prevent his student from winning, so they think there will always be someone stronger. If they know that Master Roshi was Jackie Chan, they might still get over confident and stop training.
I was going to drop the discussion and move on to save us all the grief of me repeating myself ad nauseum but if you insist:

Making jokes or deceivers out of men or 'people perceived to be men' by having them dress up in clothes is bad, actually. For both cishet understanding of queerness and for queer people's self-esteem.

I wouldn't give the series shit if I thought the message was pro-crossdressing or pro-trans. Instead it's just playing up tropes I am utterly exhausted by and make the series actively not-fun to consume.
Comedy is subjective. Whether you enjoy it or not does not inherently mean that a joke is bad. If you don't enjoy a joke, that's fine. Different people, different tastes.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by pixie_misa » Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:52 am

Jord wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:23 am Comedy is subjective. Whether you enjoy it or not does not inherently mean that a joke is bad. If you don't enjoy a joke, that's fine. Different people, different tastes.
Come on now, she explained her position perfectly well. We don't need to keep dragging this particular topic around.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:12 am

pixie_misa wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:52 am
Jord wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:23 am Comedy is subjective. Whether you enjoy it or not does not inherently mean that a joke is bad. If you don't enjoy a joke, that's fine. Different people, different tastes.
Come on now, she explained her position perfectly well. We don't need to keep dragging this particular topic around.
Ah, yeah, Jord hates me for whatever reason. I can't remember why but this is something they like to do a lot. :shrug: Maybe I hurt their feelings somehow and don't remember?

Anyway, woo, bring in more Kale and Caulifla when the Dragon Ball Super cartoon returns! Let's involve characters from the multiverse in the Moro and Granola arc adaptions and let them alter the plot!
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by KentMan » Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:33 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:12 am Ah, yeah, Jord hates me for whatever reason. I can't remember why but this is something they like to do a lot. :shrug: Maybe I hurt their feelings somehow and don't remember?

Anyway, woo, bring in more Kale and Caulifla when the Dragon Ball Super cartoon returns! Let's involve characters from the multiverse in the Moro and Granola arc adaptions and let them alter the plot!
You somehow need to gain an audience with Toriyama and prepare for him to say “who’s Kale and Caulifla?” As for this topic yeah ever since Whis and Beerus arrived it made this feel to bland and uninteresting.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by pixie_misa » Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:37 pm

KentMan wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:33 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:12 am Ah, yeah, Jord hates me for whatever reason. I can't remember why but this is something they like to do a lot. :shrug: Maybe I hurt their feelings somehow and don't remember?

Anyway, woo, bring in more Kale and Caulifla when the Dragon Ball Super cartoon returns! Let's involve characters from the multiverse in the Moro and Granola arc adaptions and let them alter the plot!
You somehow need to gain an audience with Toriyama and prepare for him to say “who’s Kale and Caulifla?” As for this topic yeah ever since Whis and Beerus arrived it made this feel to bland and uninteresting.
Kale and Caulifla/Kefla were all super popular? Demand for them is what got Kefla added to DB Fighterz.

I don't even know what the problem with Whis and Beerus supposedly is.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by KentMan » Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:28 pm

pixie_misa wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:37 pm Kale and Caulifla/Kefla were all super popular? Demand for them is what got Kefla added to DB Fighterz.

I don't even know what the problem with Whis and Beerus supposedly is.
I was making a joke about Toriyama forgetfulness and Whis and Beerus are exactly what’s wrong with Super.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by ChronoTwigger » Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:48 pm

Is not a very conscious difference, it's not immediate if you don't focus a bit and ignore the escalation, but...

Dragon Ball: the fun adventures of a strong kid that become an hero. With a pure heart, a smile and courage you can see fantastic places and meet cool people!

DBZ: that kid, grown up, found to be a legendary hero fated to save the universe from the worst menace ever. With determination and sacrifice you can obtain results.

DBS: The hero is... well, whatever.... I dunno. Maybe... "the more the training, the more the aliens"...?

Dragon Ball Super doesn't feel as Dragon Ball as it doesn't feel as nothing. 'Cause narratively is nothing worth. It's just a sequence of circumstances that appear to have the same tropes of Dragon Ball.
That's why a lot of people had great hope for Black arc, even if it failed to deliver. "Power is a bad thing if not balanced by humanity". That was the moral. Totally failed, ok, but people 'perceived' the story could have been about something.

If you don't have a moral, you cannot convey some kinda feeling. DBS is just "going onward" by random impulses.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Regarder » Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:42 pm

I think the Super anime and manga don't live up to the originals, but I would argue that the Super movies are better than the DBZ movies with the exception of the Bardock special. Dragonball Super: Broly is better than pretty much all of the DBZ movies for at least having a character as the antagonist.

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