Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Mireya » Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:54 pm

With all due respect to the fans, it just doesn't feel like Dragonball. I don't know why GT had to stop with 64 episodes when it had more of a DB feeling while Super is still on-going.

One of the reasons is the characters writing. Goku seems dumber, more outgoing and flat out stupid to the point it isn't funny. Goku from the original manga had more nuances in his behavior. He wasn't a flat out moron... he just suffered from social awkwardness, which is different. As an example, look at "real" Goku's reaction to when Kuririn asks if he's happy or scared of the androids and Cell and look at Super's Goku's reaction to when Kuririn poses him with the same question. One he's normally responding calmly all while not letting go of his excitement. The other, he's just doing a big teeth smile like he always does in Super and looking sillier.

Vegeta seems more true to his original character, but not quite there. It's visible that he can't let go of his wish of surpassing Goku, while in the Kid Boo fight he made peace with the fact Goku's the champion.

The other aspect would be the soundtracks... more subjective, but the theme songs don't resemble and don't impact the material the same way the Z did. It's too happy, too "all-good", too game-ish... while the Z's had more of an intense tune, and stuck more.

The art, while understandable as it changes, but... future Trunks for instance. While did they portray him in such a weak shape and immature facial structures when his original self looked very buff vs Cell and with mature facial shape? This the change in art doesn't excuse. They could change the art style but remain faithful. Tenshinhan, too... where's his jacked self that stopped Boo's attack? Did he go through a special diet to lose his amazing shape? Come on now...

There's more, but I can point them out as the thread goes, if it gets the expected activity.

But as a whole, Super seems like a farce to me. Can't enjoy it. Would have dropped it a lot sooner if not for the Dragonball name.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:57 pm

That tends to happen when different people create a different work of art. Toriyama is not the person he was in 1984 or 1995. Toyo-tarou is not Toriyama from 1984 or 1995. The various staff of the cartoon series and films are not Toriyama from 1984 or 1985.

Like, yeah. It's going to be different.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:40 am

Maybe that's a good thing?

Things should evolve, instead of being stuck in the past. If you miss the old Dragon Ball you can still go watch it, but Super should be its own product and not try to replicate the past at every turn. For this I respect Super a lot, because it has introduced many new and unique elements (the Multiverse, Destroyers and Angels, the Time Rings, Ultra Instinct, etc.).

Even when Super revisits old characters like Frieza and Android 17, it still does new and interesting things with them. Like how Frieza was turned into a protagonist for the first time in the ToP arc or how Android 17 became a central character of an arc instead of just being a stepping stone for Cell.

While did they portray him in such a weak shape and immature facial structures when his original self looked very buff vs Cell and with mature facial shape?

Because he has been eating cat food for 1 year due to Black literally blowing up 90% of human civilization on the day he came to Earth.

Try to eat only CAT FOOD for 1 year, I assure you you're not going to retain your chiselled muscles.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Mireya » Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:54 am

Because he has been eating cat food for 1 year due to Black literally blowing up 90% of human civilization on the day he came to Earth.

Try to eat only CAT FOOD for 1 year, I assure you you're not going to retain your chiselled muscles.
That happens even before that. Look at his fight against Dabura and Bobbidi. He is far from how he looked beforehand.

And yeah, things change, but if it's a Dragonball product I still want to feel the vibe the original series offered. I don't want to be reading a new taken of the story althogether. I want it to be as close as possible. New plots, new enemies will show up... but if it doesn't sound like Dragonball...then which story am I reading?

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:08 am

Mireya wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:54 am
Because he has been eating cat food for 1 year due to Black literally blowing up 90% of human civilization on the day he came to Earth.

Try to eat only CAT FOOD for 1 year, I assure you you're not going to retain your chiselled muscles.
That happens even before that. Look at his fight against Dabura and Bobbidi. He is far from how he looked beforehand.

And yeah, things change, but if it's a Dragonball product I still want to feel the vibe the original series offered. I don't want to be reading a new taken of the story althogether. I want it to be as close as possible. New plots, new enemies will show up... but if it doesn't sound like Dragonball...then which story am I reading?
Trunks started HRT to retain his youthful prettiness and enter the world of femboy modeling. Pretty sure she's going to come out as trans any day now.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:15 am

Mireya wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:54 am And yeah, things change, but if it's a Dragonball product I still want to feel the vibe the original series offered. I don't want to be reading a new taken of the story althogether. I want it to be as close as possible. New plots, new enemies will show up... but if it doesn't sound like Dragonball...then which story am I reading?
But again, that's really not possible. The closest you're going to get is GT, because that was a contemporary production made with a continuing team of people from the prior version.

And just like the authors, illustrators, and associated additional television writers/animators/producers/etc. not being the same people they once were a couple decades ago (if they even ARE some of the same people; yes, some are, but also many aren't)...

... but YOU are also not the same person you were. It's still a children's series, and there's no way you're going to react to some part of it fresh the same way you would have when you first got into it. You could have gotten into it thirty years ago, twenty, ten, or even one -- and you're STILL not going to react the same way, because the series has changed you in that time.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Yuli Ban » Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:14 am

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:08 am
Mireya wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:54 am
Because he has been eating cat food for 1 year due to Black literally blowing up 90% of human civilization on the day he came to Earth.

Try to eat only CAT FOOD for 1 year, I assure you you're not going to retain your chiselled muscles.
That happens even before that. Look at his fight against Dabura and Bobbidi. He is far from how he looked beforehand.

And yeah, things change, but if it's a Dragonball product I still want to feel the vibe the original series offered. I don't want to be reading a new taken of the story althogether. I want it to be as close as possible. New plots, new enemies will show up... but if it doesn't sound like Dragonball...then which story am I reading?
Trunks started HRT to retain his youthful prettiness and enter the world of femboy modeling. Pretty sure she's going to come out as trans any day now.
So it has been written
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:35 am

Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:14 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:08 am
Mireya wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:54 am That happens even before that. Look at his fight against Dabura and Bobbidi. He is far from how he looked beforehand.

And yeah, things change, but if it's a Dragonball product I still want to feel the vibe the original series offered. I don't want to be reading a new taken of the story althogether. I want it to be as close as possible. New plots, new enemies will show up... but if it doesn't sound like Dragonball...then which story am I reading?
Trunks started HRT to retain his youthful prettiness and enter the world of femboy modeling. Pretty sure she's going to come out as trans any day now.
So it has been written
Image
I always forget about that episode. God, it was awful and transphobic.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:06 pm

Mireya wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:54 pm

The other aspect would be the soundtracks... more subjective, but the theme songs don't resemble and don't impact the material the same way the Z did. It's too happy, too "all-good", too game-ish... while the Z's had more of an intense tune, and stuck more.
A lot of that is because Super is way more slice of life-y compared to Z. But there was plenty of “we’re just relaxing and having a good time music in Z

https://youtu.be/lCOufWCU3QI

https://youtu.be/_DwuHAAc4S0

https://youtu.be/_A_Lxv2o8qo

https://youtu.be/vtWHkfuvt7k


And Super has plenty of “Action-y” pieces that take center stage when its going all action. I think Sumitomo is a much worse composer than Shunsuke Kikuchi but he is scoring the show appropriately.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Mireya » Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:54 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:15 am
Mireya wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:54 am And yeah, things change, but if it's a Dragonball product I still want to feel the vibe the original series offered. I don't want to be reading a new taken of the story althogether. I want it to be as close as possible. New plots, new enemies will show up... but if it doesn't sound like Dragonball...then which story am I reading?
But again, that's really not possible. The closest you're going to get is GT, because that was a contemporary production made with a continuing team of people from the prior version.

And just like the authors, illustrators, and associated additional television writers/animators/producers/etc. not being the same people they once were a couple decades ago (if they even ARE some of the same people; yes, some are, but also many aren't)...

... but YOU are also not the same person you were. It's still a children's series, and there's no way you're going to react to some part of it fresh the same way you would have when you first got into it. You could have gotten into it thirty years ago, twenty, ten, or even one -- and you're STILL not going to react the same way, because the series has changed you in that time.
While I see your point, one of the gripes the fans had with GT was Toriyama's not so present involvement in the story. So they value the DB feeling the author can output.

And some things I listed go beyond simply the staff changing. Characters writing, design of the characters... all could be more faithful with the due care in handling those. The staff doesn't have to be the same for the DB feeling to remain as close as possible.

Furthermore, it's true I changed when I watched Super, compared to the 1st time I watched and was exposed to the original story. But I still read and re-read tidbits of the story now and then... and feel the weight on it. I feel more captivated to it. I feel it had a more solid backbone. So it goes beyond simply having matured.

I think that reading a different story with a different taken, elements and all... only because it has the Dragonball brand... is bland. At least, doesn't work for me. I'm not suggesting for it to be the same, there'll be new plots, but regression in characters, more chidish art are unexcusable imo.

Misinterpretation of past behaviors too... Goku giving Moro a senzu bean after he's all beat up? Seriously? Goku insisting like a child for the ToP to have? Goku wasn't like that. He was always a battle maniac, but way more controlled and nuanced.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Yuli Ban » Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:27 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:35 am
Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:14 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:08 am

Trunks started HRT to retain his youthful prettiness and enter the world of femboy modeling. Pretty sure she's going to come out as trans any day now.
So it has been written
Image
I always forget about that episode. God, it was awful and transphobic.
If it was made nowadays, they'd do it justice, I hope.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Civic » Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:32 pm

I'd reverse your opinion. Super feels much more like DB than GT does.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:05 pm

Civic wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:32 pm I'd reverse your opinion. Super feels much more like DB than GT does.
I agree with this, especially the movies and (some of) the manga. Although, the episode of the anime where Arale shows up was a highlight!

For me, GT just... feels tropey and slow and ugly and very un-Dragon Ball. There are no memorable characters introduced. Compared to DBS where it already feels like Beerus and Whis have been part of the cast all along... they fit in perfectly. But Baby? That awful little robot buddy? It just isn't right.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Mireya » Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:21 am

I agree with the sentiment that GT wasn't a "proper" DB, I also felt angry when I went through it.

But I feel it had more character consistency, specially from Vegeta & Piccolo, and more memorable moments, like Piccolo's death, the ending... and their treatment of Majin Boo was also arguably better, while in Super he seems like a brainless being that only sleeps.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by KentMan » Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:02 am

Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:14 am So it has been written
Image
Now this was funny I remember laughing at this a lot and feeling sad for poor Trunks. But back to Super I must admit reading the manga was quite a joy for me. It felt closer to dragon ball than the anime no offense. I was always impressed with Toyotaro art especially chapter 41.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:18 am

KentMan wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:02 am
Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:14 am So it has been written
Image
Now this was funny I remember laughing at this a lot and feeling sad for poor Trunks. But back to Super I must admit reading the manga was quite a joy for me. It felt closer to dragon ball than the anime no offense. I was always impressed with Toyotaro art especially chapter 41.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by KentMan » Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:34 am

JulieYBM wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:18 am Why is a man in a dress funny?
Toriyama humor except it was copied in this case by the writers. So half and half I guess?

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:23 pm

KentMan wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:34 am
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:18 am Why is a man in a dress funny?
Toriyama humor except it was copied in this case by the writers. So half and half I guess?
But that doesn't explain why it's funny and not just shallow and regressive.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:41 pm

The joke is that Trunks feels unconfortable wearing said clothes, and characters being unconfortable (within reason) can be funny.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by KentMan » Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:04 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:23 pm But that doesn't explain why it's funny and not just shallow and regressive.
I’m certain a bunch of kids back then didn’t think of stuff like that. And besides to them it’s funny and they have a pure view of things compared to adults. Even now they’re are a new generation that might have a different view of dragon ball. Last year while I was at a mall waiting for my food a kid that was on his phone noticed that I was reading the DBS manga. He told me he liked Goku being drawn skinny and youthful like in chapter 41. Contrast to certain adults that prefer him big and bulky. I asked him if he liked the anime and he said nope. Then he tells the most funny thing I ever heard he wishes he was Bulma and Videls boyfriend and that Vegeta and Gohan are just losers. I was cracking up so much then his mom came turns out she was a dragon ball fan too. I had a conversation with her and she said she finds the male characters cute like Granolah. She was cute herself and I asked her out and we went on a nice date. But the point is that some feel like super doesn’t feel like it’s Dragon Ball or some don’t really care. PS: she was single for whatever reason and I haven’t see her since

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