Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Kakarotto92
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Kakarotto92 » Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:57 pm

If you're only talking about the anime, then I agree (even though I still think it's fine).

But I disagree if you're also including Toyotaro's manga, which in my opinion feels much more like 90's Toriyama/Toei's Dragon Ball that I grew up with.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by PrinceVegetto » Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:56 pm

ChronoTwigger wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:48 pm Is not a very conscious difference, it's not immediate if you don't focus a bit and ignore the escalation, but...

Dragon Ball: the fun adventures of a strong kid that become an hero. With a pure heart, a smile and courage you can see fantastic places and meet cool people!

DBZ: that kid, grown up, found to be a legendary hero fated to save the universe from the worst menace ever. With determination and sacrifice you can obtain results.

DBS: The hero is... well, whatever.... I dunno. Maybe... "the more the training, the more the aliens"...?

Dragon Ball Super doesn't feel as Dragon Ball as it doesn't feel as nothing. 'Cause narratively is nothing worth. It's just a sequence of circumstances that appear to have the same tropes of Dragon Ball.
That's why a lot of people had great hope for Black arc, even if it failed to deliver. "Power is a bad thing if not balanced by humanity". That was the moral. Totally failed, ok, but people 'perceived' the story could have been about something.

If you don't have a moral, you cannot convey some kinda feeling. DBS is just "going onward" by random impulses.
Well said!

Even with GT I see much more passion, creativity, and SOUL put into the show. Super has had a lot of cool moments don't get me wrong. Ultra Instinct was beyond hype! But there's something very lackluster about the majority of the series and I think you hit the nail on the head. It's the lack of direction or moral to the story.

Another reason GT is more appealing to me is that they dared to have more novelty than fan-servicey Super.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Kakarotto92 » Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:11 pm

PrinceVegetto wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:56 pm
Well said!

Even with GT I see much more passion, creativity, and SOUL put into the show. Super has had a lot of cool moments don't get me wrong. Ultra Instinct was beyond hype! But there's something very lackluster about the majority of the series and I think you hit the nail on the head. It's the lack of direction or moral to the story.

Another reason GT is more appealing to me is that they dared to have more novelty than fan-servicey Super.
Don't know what you mean by Super being more "fan-servicey" than GT, both series have plenty of it (and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's not bad fan service like Vegeta doing the Buu arc/Majin Vegeta explosion in the ToP or some of the stuff we see in Heroes. Other than that, I enjoy most of the fan service in GT and Super)

As for "novelty", the only original stuff GT had was the Shadow Dragons and SSJ4.

The Black Star DBs arc is just the Hunt for the DBs arc (a.k.a. Pilaf arc) but in space and Bulma/Yamcha/Oolong replaced by Pan and Trunks. The Trunks dressing up as a woman episode mentioned on this thread, is basically the same as the Oolong episode in the first arc, only its Goku who dresses up as a girl.

Baby is just Hatchyak + Cell + the Garlic Jr arc (GT's writer was the one who wrote the Garlic Jr filler arc FYI).

Don't get me wrong, I really like these two arcs and don't mind that they take ideas from the original series (the Moro arc does that too and it's my favorite modern DB arc), but "novelty"?

GT is better than Super when it comes to the timeline (being post-EoZ) and on art/animation. Super is better on fight scenes and the new characters (Beerus, Whis, Hit, Zamasu, Goku Black, Toppo, the Hakaishins, the angels, etc.), on everything else, both series are tied IMO (with the Super manga being better than both).

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by capsulecorp » Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:20 pm

DBS does not have SSJ4. This alone makes it feel more like "real Dragon Ball" to me. SSJ4 is so gross!!

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by PrinceVegetto » Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:43 am

Kakarotto92 wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:11 pm Don't know what you mean by Super being more "fan-servicey" than GT, both series have plenty of it (and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's not bad fan service like Vegeta doing the Buu arc/Majin Vegeta explosion in the ToP or some of the stuff we see in Heroes. Other than that, I enjoy most of the fan service in GT and Super)

GT is better than Super when it comes to the timeline (being post-EoZ) and on art/animation. Super is better on fight scenes and the new characters (Beerus, Whis, Hit, Zamasu, Goku Black, Toppo, the Hakaishins, the angels, etc.), on everything else, both series are tied IMO (with the Super manga being better than both).
You make a good point, both GT and Super have fan service but I like very few of those moments in Super. Bringing back Freeza the second time for the ToP and Vegetto briefly appearing in the Future Trunks arc are probably the highlights.

Like you said, GT is better than Super when it comes to the timeline, animation, but also transformations. Super as a whole has no original transformations. SSJ God is just base form + red hair. SSJ Blue is just SSJ + blue hair dye (as Freeza perfectly put). SSJ Rosé is SSJ but pink. Kale’s transformation is a copy of Broly’s Legendary form. Ultra Instinct is impressive but I'm more in love with its idea and what it represents than how it looks (the mastered version looks like another recolor - this time white). GT may have plenty of issues, but SSJ4 was definitely the most original transformation out of any of these. The callback the transformation has to the origins of the Saiyans (with the tail and Oozaru fur) is perfection honestly.

Super's timeline placement is probably the biggest disappointment though. There are no stakes. On top of that, for the longest time Super wouldn’t dare do anything to disrupt their core appeal, no matter the fact that one of Dragon Ball’s biggest strengths as a story was its willingness to change the formula and reinvent itself, to have its characters grow and evolve over the course of the narrative. Trunks and Goten have stayed stagnant since 2015! They're finally having them look older in the new movie -- but it took them 7 years! To a certain degree I understand why it took so long. They wanted to keep their characters in their most iconic, marketable state. They didn't want to risk alienating their audience. But to me that makes Super boring - plainly put.

I will say I'm very excited that the series seems to be entering a new stage now as we get closer to EoZ so my opinion on the series could change.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:19 am

Super in in this weird place where It's ultimately a futile endeavor. Fans want something new that lines up with what they expect but still surprises them somehow and is also similar to the old stuff they hold dear which is incredibly hard. That leads to retreads of older works instead of letting the story progress naturally. Which they are seemingly afraid of doing I.e letting the youngsters be ones really defend against threats instead of the “if Goku can’t do it no one can” schtick due to money.



I’ve always had this theory that if some (not all) of the stuff could have probably flown back in the day without much backlash if Toriyama had written it during the original serialization (I.e Ultra Instinct, S-cells, Minus).
Also posters on the 1st page are right Toriyama is a different person than he was back then. Plus what doesn't feels like Dragon ball to you may feel like it to someone else you have to take that into account.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Mireya » Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:18 am

I was speaking of both medias, anime and manga.

Another thing that seems off to me is how chewed the informations are. Toriyama was good in letting some things subtle and getting the point across anyway, without needing to have a character info dumping everything that was happening, for example Whis and Beerus in the U6 arc or Goku chewing everything Vegeta was doing in his fight vs Black. That isn't like Dragonball at all.

I also feel the warriors gather up together too often. Tenshinhan and Piccolo are more like the lone warriors type, they shouldn't be doing barbecue at Bulma's house imo. Tenshinhan even said he probably won't meet the crew again after the Cell arc, and original manga-wise, he probably didn't. So it seems he values the lone warrior path of improving himself. He isn't the type to be joining mundane things like a party in Bulma's house. He's committed to battle and having his own life alone.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Raki » Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:45 pm

I'm currently making my way through Super via the Blu-ray sets. The show is great due to the slice of life episodes. It isn't just some villain or crazy threat. Super fits in perfectly with the rest of the franchise. What else are people expecting? Z fans are probably wanting Gohan to take a larger role. This 32 year old fan is just happy to see new content.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by capsulecorp » Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:57 pm

Raki wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:45 pm I'm currently making my way through Super via the Blu-ray sets. The show is great due to the slice of life episodes. It isn't just some villain or crazy threat. Super fits in perfectly with the rest of the franchise. What else are people expecting? Z fans are probably wanting Gohan to take a larger role. This 32 year old fan is just happy to see new content.
Yeah, I agree that the slice of life episodes are the highlight of the Super anime. Arale's guest appearance is such a bright spot. It's odd because I guess its "filler"... it's kind of the opposite of the original anime in that sense.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:08 pm

They provide more variety than just five episodes of haphazardly produced fighting done with no time or staff. I enjoy seeing the characters doing things they normally do not!
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:40 am

It is logical that Super would have more slice of life than DBZ, since Super is still supposed to take place in an overall "period of peace" i.e. a period where the Earth isn't particularly threatened. As we know, the only arc that isn't dealing with friendly tournaments is dealing with a threat to the FUTURE TIMELINE, so faraway from the Earth.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Cipher » Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:23 am

I’m kind of torn on how to respond to this.

1) It’s fine if it doesn’t? As long as the world and characters feel consistent and recognizable, I don’t mind DBS being its own thing—structurally, tonally, etc. It isn’t DB. DB ended 25 years ago.

2) I do think this is true of the TV series to an extent that goes into characters not feeling like themselves, the world not feeling like itself, etc., which is one of my central misgivings with it. Just a million little scripting gripes stacking up. Those issues don’t extend to the manga for me, so I’m able to enjoy it through the lens above.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Mireya » Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:43 pm

It won't be the same because yeah, the ppl in charge of it changed and the people that worked with the original series have also different mentalities than they had before. But shouldn't them strive for it to be as close as possible? I'm OK with some changes here and there as the part 2 of the series doesn't feel like the part 1, pre Saiyans saga, too much... but that sounded more like a natural progression of the predecessors moments. In DBS I observe characters regression and appeal to nostalgia without much substance, which is different from how the part 2 developed from the part 1. The characters don't have too look the same... as long as there's a viable progression and believable development... not regression or weird attitudes and acting.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by sekzee » Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:20 pm

Dragonball Super doesn’t feel like Dragonball Z.

Fixed that for you.

Super definitely feels like Dragonball.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Yuli Ban » Wed May 18, 2022 6:13 pm

The cold fact is that Dragonball, especially early Dragonball, isn't as popular with Western fans as some elitists want to think it is. The Red Ribbon Army arc is a great time, but I can tell you that I can completely understand why people who grew up on Dragon Ball Z wouldn't have patience for it. It has a much different energy (no pun intended) to Z, even at Z's most adventurous moments. Heck, I find it to almost be like an extended version of the Fake Namek arc, if Freeza was the villain of that arc and wasn't buttfuckingly powerful.

Don't get me wrong, Super has PLENTY of problems that make it lesser than Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z, but most of these problems really come down to the fact it was rushed to production, wasn't adapted from anything, and ultimately falls into a show's tradition rather than anything more original (which just comes with the territory of any longrunning IP).

Back in 2015, we heard that there was going to be a new Dragon Ball series and fans around the world rejoiced. American fans especially wanted and hoped it would be Dragon Ball AF/Absalon/Multiverse. What we got was Dragon Ball Super. Take it or leave it.
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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu May 19, 2022 9:30 am

Still feels like it to me especially when compared to Boruto. At least Dragon Ball Super looks like Dragon Ball.

The characters look how they are meant to look. The humour is similar. The general style and format of the series is pretty much the same.

Some characters may be portrayed different and the art style may differ but that's always been true when comparing the series back in the day as well.
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:18 amWhy is a man in a dress funny?
Because it isn't the normal behaviour for a man. That's why movies like Mrs Doubtfire became mega successful and an all time classic. Same as Tootsie or to a lesser extent Big Momma's House.

Same concept works for other things like Tom Hanks' Big or Freaky Friday. A normal person put in an abnormal scenario has been used for comedic purposes for decades.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu May 19, 2022 9:38 am

Yuli Ban wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:13 pm The cold fact is that Dragonball, especially early Dragonball, isn't as popular with Western fans as some elitists want to think it is.
I think pretty much most people know that. Dragon Ball is good and all but everyone knows the series took off because of its big over the top flashy action scenes.

Dragon Ball not having that until really the very end has always been what's held it back.

Dragon Ball GT even cut most of its early episodes just to get to the big flashy action scenes faster because they know it's what people were watching it for.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by SuppaSaiyanNerd » Thu May 19, 2022 11:07 am

From what I've seen/read so far, DBS feels unique but also like Buu Saga DBZ. Buu Saga already showed a goofier approach to DBZ from Toriyama, with Majin Buu being more comedic than Frieza or Cell, and storytelling that would go on tangents. I think DBS is an evolution more towards that style.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by JulieYBM » Thu May 19, 2022 11:26 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:30 am
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:18 amWhy is a man in a dress funny?
Because it isn't the normal behaviour for a man. That's why movies like Mrs Doubtfire became mega successful and an all time classic. Same as Tootsie or to a lesser extent Big Momma's House.

Same concept works for other things like Tom Hanks' Big or Freaky Friday. A normal person put in an abnormal scenario has been used for comedic purposes for decades.
I don't remember why I put you on my block list forever ago but I feel like comments like these are exactly why I did and I sorely wish the forum would stop notifying me when you reply to my posts.

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Re: Dragonball Super doesn't feel like Dragonball

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu May 19, 2022 11:42 am

JulieYBM wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:26 amI don't remember why I put you on my block list forever ago but I feel like comments like these are exactly why I did and I sorely wish the forum would stop notifying me when you reply to my posts.

For any men out there wanting to wear dresses: ignore people like the above user. ♥♥♥
That's a bit random, you asked a question and I gave an answer.

Some Like It Hot, Tootsie, Mrs Doubtfire, Big Mommas House, White Chicks, To Fong Woo, Madea, Rocky Horror Picture Show etc.

All successful comedies ranging throughout the decades. Its been a part of comedy for over a hundred years. The example with Trunks in GT wasn't even the first time it was done in that franchise as Goku dressed up as a woman for comedic purposes just a couple chapters into the manga.

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