Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Tue May 17, 2022 6:20 am

I love anytime Goku and Vegeta decide to 2 vs 1 an opponent. That plus them fighting in their new forms is exciting.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Tue May 17, 2022 8:02 am

🙏 Manifesting they (Goku & Vegeta) won't fumble next month to gas up Gas 🙌

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Tue May 17, 2022 8:39 am

I like the open hand UI transformation

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Tue May 17, 2022 8:41 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:02 am 🙏 Manifesting they (Goku & Vegeta) won't fumble next month to gas up Gas 🙌
As long as Vegeta doesn't do the thumb pointing pose, they'll be fine.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Tue May 17, 2022 10:29 am

So there was no bait-and-switch about Bardock's wish this time around. What we saw in the drafts is the real deal.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Tue May 17, 2022 10:36 am

So Goku and Vegeta are tag-teaming Gas out of necessity? Right now my impression is that while Gas and his faction present an immediate threat to the galaxy I'd be just as concerned about the long term implications of Vegeta's Ultra Ego power boosting masochism since I assume the strength he attains remains permanent. It isn't because he himself presents a danger but because of how those around him, including villains, can respond to him if his form allows him to reap the benefits of Broly's condition.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Tue May 17, 2022 11:10 am

I am kinda amused by certain people who were dead set on the wish not being granted, now having to walk that back and now explain how "sure the wish was granted but it's actually not that big of a deal."

My position was less on whether or not the wish happened and more that how Bardock's wish is staged brings pointless ambiguity to something that does not need it. But I'l be honest, I genuinely thought they would have taken that back in the next issue and reveal that the wish was never granted. Surely they wouldn't do something so objectively terrible right?

The fact that they pulled that trigger on the "Yes, Goku was always special" speaks volumes of how utterly misguided this arc is. Just meandering, and pointless. What is the point of all this? What is the point of going back to Bardock? What is the point of that wish? And the answer is--nothing. It's not going to make any of these characters more compelling, or give us a better understanding to the world they take place. It's noise for the sake of noise: cynically robbing the grave of a series' past for LOOOOOOOORE. As far as I'm concerned, The Granolah arc is a failure; its unsalvageable. And the only thing now is to watch it shit the bed like the slow moving train crash it clearly is.


And like I'll keep saying: this is not where I thought I'd be a year ago when this arc first started. What the fuck?


update:
After reading the drafts:
I actually do like Goku in the Saiyan armor, and I like the idea that it represents Goku finally coming to terms with Saiyan heritage. I just wished this happened in a better story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Tue May 17, 2022 12:25 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:10 am I am kinda amused by certain people who were dead set on the wish not being granted, now having to walk that back and now explain how "sure the wish was granted but it's actually not that big of a deal."

My position was less on whether or not the wish happened and more that how Bardock's wish is staged brings pointless ambiguity to something that does not need it. But I'l be honest, I genuinely thought they would have taken that back in the next issue and reveal that the wish was never granted. Surely they wouldn't do something so objectively terrible right?

The fact that they pulled that trigger on the "Yes, Goku was always special" speaks volumes of how utterly misguided this arc is. Just meandering, and pointless. What is the point of all this? What is the point of going back to Bardock? What is the point of that wish? And the answer is--nothing. It's not going to make any of these characters more compelling, or give us a better understanding to the world they take place. It's noise for the sake of noise: cynically robbing the grave of a series' past for LOOOOOOOORE. As far as I'm concerned, The Granolah arc is a failure; its unsalvageable. And the only thing now is to watch it shit the bed like the slow moving train crash it clearly is.


And like I'll keep saying: this is not where I thought I'd be a year ago when this arc first started. What the fuck?


update:
After reading the drafts:
I actually do like Goku in the Saiyan armor, and I like the idea that it represents Goku finally coming to terms with Saiyan heritage. I just wished this happened in a better story.
Well, at least Bardock isn't somehow alive as you somehow predicted he'd be lmao

Monaito's wish as it is is still mildly vague/ambiguous enough as it was last chapter that some ppl here seem to think there's a chance it can still be swerved as having not happened/been for Granolah instead or limited to "it just helped Goku/Raditz survive the planet destruction and nothing else" (though I don't think it will be). At the very least, it being explicitly discussed at the start of the chapter & being released as part of the chapter draft leaks is a "lol Tori/Toyo" moment.

And also, lol at that centralised arc mald 3rd paragraph which I'm sure either Ponta or Batistabus here could systematically counter
Xeogran wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:29 am So there was no bait-and-switch about Bardock's wish this time around. What we saw in the drafts is the real deal.
Well, of course, we already saw from the drafts they had a little spat about the wish, it moved onto Monaito heavyhandedly spelling out the arc's message, then Gas basically found them at the end of the drafts - and lo & behold, it almost immediately moved onto fighting for the rest of the chapter continuing onto the next. If there's any glimmer of cope, it'll be around the end probably (unless ofc, there is no cope and the "grow up healthy/strong" wish sticks).
Lionel wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:36 am So Goku and Vegeta are tag-teaming Gas out of necessity? Right now my impression is that while Gas and his faction present an immediate threat to the galaxy I'd be just as concerned about the long term implications of Vegeta's Ultra Ego power boosting masochism since I assume the strength he attains remains permanent. It isn't because he himself presents a danger but because of how those around him, including villains, can respond to him if his form allows him to reap the benefits of Broly's condition.
I think the strength he gets from his battle soul getting fired up in Ultra Ego is just limited to Ultra Ego (plus the existing power boost and heightened Hakai abilities he gets from it).
Last edited by Shorty GZ2 on Tue May 17, 2022 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Tue May 17, 2022 12:39 pm

The most charitable reading I can give to the wish, and the one that won't make me lose all faith in this series, is that Bardock's wish only extended to getting Raditz and Goku off-planet safely. Is it pointless? Sure, but its better than the alternative in which a magical mystical dragon ensured that no harm to Goku would come to past, until it does when he meets his brother. It's a dumb, dumb reading that only serves to complicate something that did not need to be complicated. It takes focus away from what the story is trying to get us to focus on, and instead creates more questions that it has no real intentions to solve.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue May 17, 2022 2:00 pm

Or what if the wish also entailed that Goku was sent to a weak planet like earth, so he could "thrive [Grow up healthy and strong]?"

Lets hold off on that for now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue May 17, 2022 4:59 pm

This will probably be the last thing I have to say about the wish until chapter 85:

The power of the wish is that it inspires hope for the future. The framing portrays it more as a positive gesture from Bardock rather than a typical reality-manipulating wish. Bardock doesn't want a wish; he just wants to express that he hopes his sons fare well. That is what Monaito cares about most. Whether Monaito ultimately asked that of the Toronbo - for now at least - isn't really important.

If it is just a gesture, yet it came true (which it did to some extent), what does that say? Anything?

Again, at the moment, I think the wish was probably granted. We're meant to think it was, and Vegeta certainly thinks so (although Monaito is fixated on his memory of Bardock). It seems like exactly the kind of thing modern Toriyama would go for. Taken straight and charitably, it's a cool tidbit.

I've already said why I don't think it diminishes anything. The "Goku isn't special" thing really only applies to certain aspects of his character at certain points in the series. In universe and in the real world, Goku is so successful as a character because he is special. He's a freakishly strong as a child. He is uniquely pure. He fulfills several prophecies over the course of the series. He probably invented Super Saiyan 3. And that's not even getting into Goku's unique ability to convert his enemies. The Sun Wukong comparisons don't just end at his namesake.

Many assume the wish wore off when Goku encountered Raditz because they were both "grown up". That interpretation works well as a monkey paw side-effect (they both grew up well but then killed each other). That said, we don't know if it wore off then, and based on our current information, we have some reason to doubt that it was granted at all. Raditz grew up, but did he grow up strong and well? He's not strong relative to other Saiyans (or even Saibaimen), and he doesn't seem to have grown up in a nurturing environment. At the very least, I guess he wasn't diseased or something. Can a dragon even grant such a vague, long-lasting wish? We've seen that Toronbo's power cannot contradict the will of the person that it affects. What if Goku had decided to just give up on life and waste away after Son Gohan died? Would he magically be transferred nourishment to the point of adulthood?

That's why I still think there's room for interpretation, and as Miracles said, it's best to hold off to see if we're shown more.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Tue May 17, 2022 10:30 pm

I personally think that the wish wore off because Goku was strong enough to resist it and choose what he wanted to do with his life hence why he died fighting Raditz.
Remember that wishing dragon can't act on someone stronger than them without their permission first.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed May 18, 2022 11:48 am

I love Goku's dad, Minato.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by somelgaster10 » Wed May 18, 2022 5:46 pm

Jinto wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:30 pm I personally think that the wish wore off because Goku was strong enough to resist it and choose what he wanted to do with his life hence why he died fighting Raditz.
Remember that wishing dragon can't act on someone stronger than them without their permission first.
He banged Chichi so he was already grown enough for the wish to stop working... :thumbup:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed May 18, 2022 6:24 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:10 am
update:
After reading the drafts:
I actually do like Goku in the Saiyan armor, and I like the idea that it represents Goku finally coming to terms with Saiyan heritage. I just wished this happened in a better story.
Goku has worn Saiyan armor before. He’s never had any problems accepting his Saiyan heritage.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Wed May 18, 2022 8:14 pm

I'm not saying the wish was granted either way but vegeta wasn't there either. I guess monaito not refuting it is proof enough though.

That being said, how exactly does the wish work. Would love to see a list of when people think this wish activates to save Goku. I mean it's easy to see in a circumstance like goku hitting his head and forgetting and surviving that fall. Did it help when the dragon ball saved gokus heart from being pierced with demon king piccolos beam? Is the wish the reason the dragon ball was there? We've never had such a wishy washy wish in the series like this before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu May 19, 2022 12:03 am

nato25 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:14 pm I'm not saying the wish was granted either way but vegeta wasn't there either. I guess monaito not refuting it is proof enough though.

That being said, how exactly does the wish work. Would love to see a list of when people think this wish activates to save Goku. I mean it's easy to see in a circumstance like goku hitting his head and forgetting and surviving that fall. Did it help when the dragon ball saved gokus heart from being pierced with demon king piccolos beam? Is the wish the reason the dragon ball was there? We've never had such a wishy washy wish in the series like this before.
There are a couple of absurd-luck moments without much other rationalization that I think are potential candidates to re-evaluate through this lens:

* Goku’s fall as a toddler
* The mouse saving him from General Blue
* The Dragon Ball protecting him from the Dodanpa (though could also be some divine intervention from Gohan, as the arc implies in its original context; works either way)
* Surviving his first fight with Piccolo
* Surviving the Super Divine Water

In addition:
* Raditz being paired up with Vegeta
* Bardock identifying Earth and Goku making it off-world safely

Of course all of them could just be up to natural luck and determination as well. That’s part of why I feel the wish is unobtrusive at worst, positive at best. It connects Goku to the DBs and pays off on a change he inspired in Bardock, but doesn’t go so far as to override any of the series’ existing themes about rewarding positive outlooks and grit.

I made this point a few posts back, but it’s similar to the near-death power-ups in that way—which layer on top of previous comebacks for Goku in a way that could be read as invalidating, but also layer pretty naturally on top of what the series already reinforces and rewards.
Last edited by Cipher on Thu May 19, 2022 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Thu May 19, 2022 12:36 am

Cipher wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:03 am
nato25 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:14 pm I'm not saying the wish was granted either way but vegeta wasn't there either. I guess monaito not refuting it is proof enough though.

That being said, how exactly does the wish work. Would love to see a list of when people think this wish activates to save Goku. I mean it's easy to see in a circumstance like goku hitting his head and forgetting and surviving that fall. Did it help when the dragon ball saved gokus heart from being pierced with demon king piccolos beam? Is the wish the reason the dragon ball was there? We've never had such a wishy washy wish in the series like this before.
There are a couple of absurd-luck moments without other much other rationalization that I think are potential candidates to re-evaluate through this lens:

* Goku’s fall as a toddler
* The mouse saving him from General Blue
* The Dragon Ball protecting him from the Dodanpa (though could also be some divine intervention from Gohan, as the arc implies in its original context; works either way)
* Surviving his first fight with Piccolo
* Surviving the Super Divine Water

In addition:
* Raditz being paired up with Vegeta
* Bardock identifying Earth and Goku making it off-world safely

Of course all of them could just be up to natural luck and determination as well. That’s part of why I feel the wish is unobtrusive at worst, positive at best. It connects Goku to the DBs and pays off for a change he inspired in Bardock, but doesn’t go so far as to override any of the series’ existing themes about rewarding positive outlooks and grit.

I made this point a few posts back, but it’s similar to the near-death power-ups on that way—which layer on top of previous comebacks for Goku in a way that could be read as invalidating, but also layer pretty naturally on top of what the series already reinforces and rewards.
I agree with all your points good sir.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Thu May 19, 2022 11:20 am

Okay this is probably one of my favourite panels from the Super manga. I love that they brought back Vegeta’s Buu arc clothes. Ultra Ego looks a lot nicer without the armour. It also feels appropriate without armour since Vegeta intentionally takes damage when he’s in the form.

Those panels of Goku and Vegeta slowly walking out of Monaito’s home when Gas arrived was really cool, too. Good chapter overall.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Thu May 19, 2022 11:22 am

Yeah, the walk out was clean

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