Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Seekeroftruth » Fri May 20, 2022 4:52 am

Xeogran wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:35 pm Ultra Instinct didn't felt like Ultra Instinct to me. I'm just not used to the white-haired Goku showing all these emotions, as if he was still fighting in base. I thought the form was supposed to be calm and collected but now it's just.. a literal recolor.
Exactly. No where in this chapter did UI show any of its defensive or automatic properties.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Torturephile » Fri May 20, 2022 5:11 am

Loved it when Goku trolled Vegeta about spoiling Bra.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:25 pm A lot of complaining from people who will continue to read and discuss the manga for years to come lol.
Somehow at this point I find the criticisms (or "complaining" as you put it) more fun to read than the manga itself. Says a lot about the sad state of the manga, but that's my opinion.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Fri May 20, 2022 6:19 am

Ok, couple of things.

Reducing these complaints to "I hate that this fighting manga has fighting" is a complete misunderstanding of what the core criticisms of this arc is. The problem is not that there's too much fighting, the problem is that the scenario surrounding the fight lack any dramatic momentum. Think back to some of the iconic moments of DBZ and when you ask yourself "why" those moments work, it isn't just because it's a super duper cool moment, it's because the lead up to those moments are filled with drama and tension. Goku turning SSJ is memorable because it makes good on a storyline of watching our heroes get battered by forces stronger then them. It's cathartic. That's not happening here at all, and while I don't expect Super to reach those heights, I do expect something. Bardock teaching Goku and Vegeta "Saiyan pride" ain't it.

Second of all, "this is a kids manga" is a backhanded compliment and not the solid argument you think it is. More importantly being a story for kids does not prevent a story for being well made and well written. How do I know? Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are shows directed at children that are both way better than Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri May 20, 2022 7:09 am

I, for one, honestly didn't mind the fighting scenes. I appreciated seeing UE Vegeta and UI Goku fight side-by-side, and I actually look forward to seeing how they finish Gas off. I just hated the whole Bardock nonsense in the beginning.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Fri May 20, 2022 7:18 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:32 pm Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 84:

- So what was the point of Bardock being introduced in the arc? He added nothing substantial to the story in terms of narrative themes, character development or plot development. If the point of Bardock being introduced to the plot was for Goku to truly understand what Saiyan pride is, then that is beyond redundant. This was already covered comprehensively in the original manga. Goku already knows what it means to have the pride of Saiyan. He asked Vegeta to share the pride of the Saiyan race with him during the Namek arc in the climactic battle against Freeza. This narrative subtext reached its natural conclusion in the climactic battle in the Majin Boo arc when Goku decides to battle like a Saiyan and forgo the use of Potara against Kid Boo and fight like a true Saiyan in a one-on-one battle.

I also stand by my original comments about the circumstances of the wish: its BEYOND fucking stupid. It's singlehandedly the dumbest narrative decision I have ever seen in a Dragon Ball story, and that is REALLY saying something since Dragon Ball Minus and Dragon Ball Heroes exists. Some aspects of the story don't need an explanation. We didn't need to know how Goku developed the way he did as a child and young adult. Part of the charm of the original story was how organic it appeared.

Goku's circumstances for his growth were portrayed as a wonderful balance of Goku's abilities as a martial artist as well as a shit load of luck, ya know, just like how it works in real life, and that's what made Goku a relatable character despite the story making it clear he was head and shoulders above his competition in terms of potential. You never envied Goku as a character because he was special, you appreciated him because he earned everything that he attained. And when he got that big stroke of luck or had a favour given to him, it didn't feel out of place because it wonderfully juxtaposed the effort he put in to bring out the best of himself or others in martial arts and sometimes in life in general. Bardock's wish kills all of this by putting an unnecessarily large, dark cloud over the agency of Goku himself regarding how much Goku's development as a person and martial was to Goku's own autonomy doing or due to literal plot armour.

More importantly, though, Bardock didn't need to be THIS important to Goku's story. The whole point of Bardock's character was that he has no significance. This serves to diametrically oppose the significance Goku would have on the universe. And yes, I still blame Toriyama for all of this. He laid down the foundation for Bardock being an integral character in Goku's story by having him be the one to send Goku to earth. Bardock is meant to be a fleeting memory of an age that is long gone, and that is emphasised with the brief flashback in the Freeza arc when Bardock is only mentioned out of convenience. Bardock (initially) viewed his son with contempt because of his low battle power at birth and in his last fleeting moments realises that his son may have a great role in life than he expected. That's where the dramatic irony lies, and that's what elevates EVERYTHING about Goku's journey and gives it that unique twist on the typical "I want to become stronger" narrative you see in most shonen manga and anime. Goku defied everything Bardock and the society and culture he was a part of represented.

Now we have the usual "parental figure has a huge significance in the development of the main character" schtick that has been done a million times in other shonen. The Bardock I remember loving was originally a piece of shit space pirate that had little or no regard for life, which even extended to his own family, but still harboured a level of humanity with an expression of stress and fear over the fate of his race which would develop in genuine concern. This characterisation is what made him fighting to avenge his fallen comrades and kill Freeza to save his race so engaging and intriguing. Now he's just a stock anti-hero like in other shonen. And Dragon Ball strived to be more than just "other shonen".

So with Dragon Ball Minus brutally kneecapping several themes in the second half of the story and Dragon Ball Super deciding to build on that shit foundation by retroactively recontextualising Goku's agency growing up, as well as the function of Goku's friends and mentors... I say with no hyperbole that Toriyama and Toyotaro, with the reintroduction of Bardock's character, have actively destroyed Goku's journey as a martial artist and all the themes that tie into it. This character assassination. There's no other of seeing it as anything but that. But hey, at least we now know that Goku was always The Special™ and The Chosen One®.

- Speaking of narrative themes, this arc has a pretty basic theme but it's handled in the most glurge, overly sentimental bullshit manner I've seen a narrative theme be enforced in a Dragon Ball story. It's the kind of trie shit you'd see in modern shonen manga and is the kind of execution of narrative theme Dragon Ball either avoided or had an intriguing enough twist to it to make it stand out in terms of development and/or execution. It also doesn't help that the theme this arc focuses on does NOTHING to actually develop Goku and Vegeta in any significant manner. Goku and Vegeta's characterisation in battle doesn't feel any different now from how they were at the beginning of the arc. The same can be said for Gas. He's gone through ZERO character development. He still makes the same generic "bad guy" threats and statements. Nothing has changed. This is not good storytelling.

- I just don't care for fighting. I really don't care. The arc has given me no reason to care. I don't care about how the status quo will be maintained. I care about intriguing character development based on unique character dynamics that are supported by an overarching narrative theme that feels organic to previous arcs and not counterproductive to previously established events, character development or narrative themes. Toyotaro was able to do this before, so what that hell happened with this arc?

Overall thoughts... Fuck. This. Arc.
Salient points all around. I said it before but I'll say it again, Super in general is heavily influenced by other modern Shonen to its detriment. I'm not sure if they're just trying to capture the audience that buys into these themes and narrative decisions, or if it's an unconscious and indirect influence, but either way I'm glad the original series was made at a time when these tropes didn't exist.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Seekeroftruth » Fri May 20, 2022 7:49 am

PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:09 am I, for one, honestly didn't mind the fighting scenes. I appreciated seeing UE Vegeta and UI Goku fight side-by-side, and I actually look forward to seeing how they finish Gas off. I just hated the whole Bardock nonsense in the beginning.
The whole point of UI was your body thinks independent on its own. Yet we are literally seeing no defensive capabilities of the form and goku actively talking and moving about like it's his base. It undermines the entire point of the moro arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri May 20, 2022 8:50 am

Seekeroftruth wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:52 amExactly. No where in this chapter did UI show any of its defensive or automatic properties.
I would suggest you reread the Jiren fight. Jiren was able to land hits on Ultra Instinct. He was also able to match its attacks until it wore off and he claimed the advantage.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri May 20, 2022 9:02 am

I still want either Monaito or Toronbo to be the surprise final boss. Elec isn't a fighter as it's been shown (unless he's been faking it), but the first two are hella suspicious and shady.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri May 20, 2022 9:18 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:25 pm A lot of complaining from people who will continue to read and discuss the manga for years to come lol.
At least it's only criticize from actual fans! Some places attract the elitist types that act like the entire story is beneath them and not worth their time then proceed to discuss it more than anyone who actually likes it. Here they're acknowledging they do like the manga and just that this arc could've been better in their opinion.

I don't mind it but it might be because the issues I have with it apply to most of this revival and almost any DB series post-Buu. At this point, I put up with them and hope they don't hinder the story too much. I guess a benefit of the self-contained nature of these arcs is that a bad idea or plot development probably won't affect a future arc or brought up again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Fri May 20, 2022 9:36 am

PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:09 am I, for one, honestly didn't mind the fighting scenes. I appreciated seeing UE Vegeta and UI Goku fight side-by-side, and I actually look forward to seeing how they finish Gas off. I just hated the whole Bardock nonsense in the beginning.
I agree! The fighting is top notch, there's just no emotion attached to it. I can only appreciate it without context. I get that's how some people read Super: they're just here to see Goku and Vegeta do the thing and they're happy. And that's fine, I'm not trying to make people feel bad for what they like. I am saying that I need more than that. And I think a lot of people agree with me here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri May 20, 2022 12:06 pm

I thought the wish wasn't meant to been real but Toyotarõ went out of his way to confirm it and destroy Goku's struggles for half of the manga.
Personally it's the most offensive writing since the end of the original manga.

Bardock's forceful insertion reached the present to deliver us "Saiyan Pride"; which means what exactly?
I can't figure out how that affects the motivations and struggles of Goku and Vegeta. It doesn't feel like any thought was put into this development and Toyotarõ threw a buzz word to resolve problems that weren't there in the first place, all this to wank Bardock and the Saiyans in general.
Cherry on top is the completely unnecessary fan-service with the Saiyan armor.

The rest of the chapter, I just don't care at this point. I'll continue reading it but my investment has disappeared.
I thought Moro was a bad arc and we would return to form. But alas this arc not only has been boring it evolved into a sight inducing monthly experience.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Fri May 20, 2022 1:21 pm

There are a lot of parallels between Goku's movement this chapter and Goku's moves against Freeza. Coincidentally they both follow moments where Goku realizes what Saiyan pride truly means. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence coupled with Toyo's usual homages, or a prelude to a potential Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Fri May 20, 2022 4:02 pm

Skar wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:18 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:25 pm A lot of complaining from people who will continue to read and discuss the manga for years to come lol.
At least it's only criticize from actual fans! Some places attract the elitist types that act like the entire story is beneath them and not worth their time then proceed to discuss it more than anyone who actually likes it. Here they're acknowledging they do like the manga and just that this arc could've been better in their opinion.

Yes, and even if you disagree with someone here, at least people here are elaboration on why they do/dont like what they are reading, I remember when the anime was still going, people just logged in to post one liners like "LAMO super sucks", of course there were people who actually discused the episodes, but I feel like some peapole just wanted to insult the anime and peapole who liked it witout even puting an effort or explanation on why it was "so bad".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Fri May 20, 2022 5:20 pm

YamiGoku wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:02 pm
Skar wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:18 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:25 pm A lot of complaining from people who will continue to read and discuss the manga for years to come lol.
At least it's only criticize from actual fans! Some places attract the elitist types that act like the entire story is beneath them and not worth their time then proceed to discuss it more than anyone who actually likes it. Here they're acknowledging they do like the manga and just that this arc could've been better in their opinion.

Yes, and even if you disagree with someone here, at least people here are elaborating on why they do/dont like what they are reading, I remember when the anime was still going, people just logged in to post one liners like "LAMO super sucks", of course there were people who actually discused the episodes, but I feel like some peapole just wanted to insult the anime and peapole who liked it witout even puting an effort or explanation on why it was "so bad".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Fri May 20, 2022 5:22 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:09 am I, for one, honestly didn't mind the fighting scenes. I appreciated seeing UE Vegeta and UI Goku fight side-by-side, and I actually look forward to seeing how they finish Gas off. I just hated the whole Bardock nonsense in the beginning.
This is where I'm at 100%. I want this saga to end, and I'm happy these two new godly forms are being showcased and utilized after literally 7 months or so. I don't care about Bardock at all so just happy that part is over.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri May 20, 2022 5:25 pm

Man, I think it would be cool if Gas had a weakness that required teamwork to defeat him. Say, cutting both of his horns at the same time. It would require Goku and Vegeta to actually think about their strategy. It would also be a nice parallel/payback for Gas cutting Bardock's tail back then.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri May 20, 2022 7:02 pm

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:40 pm i begin to wonder if Toyotaro has actually read the manga or watched the original series before ? Like how do you make such narrative mistakes consistently? Its like he doesn't learn from his writing mistakes he's made from previous arcs
Seekeroftruth wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:39 am Just when you think the writing cannot get any worse after chapter 83, Toyo outdoes himself in this chapter with even worse storytelling. So many things wrong and retconned from previous established cannon.
What exactly happened, most of this chapter was just fighting lmao
Yuji wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 1:21 pm There are a lot of parallels between Goku's movement this chapter and Goku's moves against Freeza. Coincidentally they both follow moments where Goku realizes what Saiyan pride truly means. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence coupled with Toyo's usual homages, or a prelude to a potential Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct.
I did recognise Toyo using the spot where Goku holds back a ki blast/ball and throwing up from Freeza (and vs Zamasu, and the ToP climax). He also seems to be using IT more in UI now.
kemuri07 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:19 am Ok, couple of things.

Reducing these complaints to "I hate that this fighting manga has fighting" is a complete misunderstanding of what the core criticisms of this arc is. The problem is not that there's too much fighting, the problem is that the scenario surrounding the fight lack any dramatic momentum. Think back to some of the iconic moments of DBZ and when you ask yourself "why" those moments work, it isn't just because it's a super duper cool moment, it's because the lead up to those moments are filled with drama and tension. Goku turning SSJ is memorable because it makes good on a storyline of watching our heroes get battered by forces stronger then them. It's cathartic. That's not happening here at all, and while I don't expect Super to reach those heights, I do expect something. Bardock teaching Goku and Vegeta "Saiyan pride" ain't it.
kemuri07 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:36 am
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:09 am I, for one, honestly didn't mind the fighting scenes. I appreciated seeing UE Vegeta and UI Goku fight side-by-side, and I actually look forward to seeing how they finish Gas off. I just hated the whole Bardock nonsense in the beginning.
I agree! The fighting is top notch, there's just no emotion attached to it. I can only appreciate it without context. I get that's how some people read Super: they're just here to see Goku and Vegeta do the thing and they're happy. And that's fine, I'm not trying to make people feel bad for what they like. I am saying that I need more than that. And I think a lot of people agree with me here.
lol
(to say the least, I disagree, and it only reinforces more that it really is "I hate that this fighting manga has fighting" here 😂)

I also shouldn't be surprised to see so numerous completely missing the point of Bardock (no matter how one feels about him as a character) or what "Saiyan pride" is (at least what this story is trying to say it is, and not Goku merely borrowing Vegeta's personal pride to fulfill his request for a Saiyan to kill Freeza & proclaiming he's an Earth-sent Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza while saying the Saiyans deserved/were fated to die, or all of Vegeta's half shallow "rahh Saiyans are a warrior race" pontificating). But this is DB(S) after all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri May 20, 2022 8:52 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:32 pmSo with Dragon Ball Minus brutally kneecapping several themes in the second half of the story and Dragon Ball Super deciding to build on that shit foundation by retroactively recontextualising Goku's agency growing up, as well as the function of Goku's friends and mentors... I say with no hyperbole that Toriyama and Toyotaro, with the reintroduction of Bardock's character, have actively destroyed Goku's journey as a martial artist and all the themes that tie into it. This character assassination. There's no other of seeing it as anything but that. But hey, at least we now know that Goku was always The Special™ and The Chosen One®.
To be fair, I don't think the wish went that far. I definitely agree it was unnecessary and doesn't really add anything worthwhile to the story though. The wish only ensured Goku and Raditz survive until adulthood but not that they would become anything special since Raditz died a loser low class Saiyan. If Goku crash landed in the desert and grew up alone, the wish would've done it's job but he likely would've been killed by Raditz and not wished back.

There was still a lot of luck involved for Goku like hitting his head and happened to be found by one of the strongest people on Earth who also happened to have a dragonball that Bulma came looking for which led to Goku meeting his friends, Roshi, Kami, etc. It was thanks to all that luck and meeting those friends that there were people to resurrect him after the wish was no longer in effect.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Fri May 20, 2022 11:30 pm

I can't believe Bardock not being an evil Sayan™ would be so upsetting to some.
Toriyama gave his version of the Bardock, it was well introduced, was coherent, Toyotaro just expanded it a bit.
I don't see how any of this is "bad writing", it's good writing in fact, because introducing a late recontextualization like that on a 43 volume long manga and not make it incoherent to the story while providing more lore is a feat on itself, unlike some... (Hello Boruto and AoT :wave: )

The wish is inconsequential, it didn't undermine his effort, it just secured his survival and passage to adulthood, what's the problem there ? It was not the wish that made Goku train everyday or gain strength or travel or have friend.
We DB fan are really an unhappy bunch :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat May 21, 2022 12:22 am

Jinto wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:30 pmIt was not the wish that made Goku train everyday or gain strength or travel or have friend.
It was. If it was possible for Goku to train every day, to gain strength, to travel or to have friends is because he was alive. He was alive because of a wish. Now, you can make an argument that the amount of strength he got during his trainings is thanks to his own effort, and you would be correct. Goku's efforts is all thanks to himself, but from a larger scope, it also takes Bardock's signature at the end of the day, because Goku was alive to make all of that possible in the first place.

I don't know if this is a good comparison/analogy, but hopefully it makes things clearer:

You studied hard and you got a nice score in that school exam. The effort of studying hard and getting a nice score is all thanks to you, but you only got to study hard and got a nice score because your parents enrolled you in that school in the first place. See? The merit is yours but it was only possible because someone else made your merit possible.

Jinto wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:30 pmWe DB fan are really an unhappy bunch :lol:
Yeah, but it was about time Bardock was made this relevant. Holy hell, it took more than three decades for this to happen. Hopefully King Vegeta is the next one to get this treatment, poor dude still barely appears.
Last edited by Grimlock on Sat May 21, 2022 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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