Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Fri May 13, 2022 9:18 pm

Stupid wish aside, I really like the moment where Goku’s remembering his time in the incubator at home.

This arc is a roller coaster when it comes to its quality. There’s some stuff that I love, it drags in a lot of places and it has some very questionable writing at times. I’m looking forward to see how it all wraps up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri May 13, 2022 9:52 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:12 pmThat's possible. Personally, I'm apathetic to whether Toriyama, Toyotaro, Uchida, someone at Shueisha, my grandma or my dog came up with this. It's still bad, and I'd wager that Toyotaro is complicit for wanting to force Bardock into this arc in the first place.

Leaving Bardock's story in Super to DBS Broly would have been fine. Scratch that, it would've been fucking great! Why tamper with it?

As someone who, again, has been in the manga's corner for years, it's just sad to read the kind of mediocrity that's been on display for the past 8 months. It's been an awful time and judging from this month's drafts, I have no expectations for the coming chapter either.
Yeah I definitely agree with that. I was thinking this was from Toriyama since it's similar to Minus and retcons something about Goku's past involving Bardock. Minus changed the reason Goku was sent to Earth which only Toriyama could get away with. This wish is only possible with the Minus depiction of Bardock. TV special Bardock didn't care about his kids until he had that vision of Goku challenging Freeza seconds before he was killed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat May 14, 2022 12:17 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:12 pm Leaving Bardock's story in Super to DBS Broly would have been fine. Scratch that, it would've been fucking great! Why tamper with it?
I like Minus, but it's hardly a story. The Broly version was that plus the rebellion, which is a cool moment, but again, it doesn't go much further in making it a story. That said, I agree that it was a good start and end for DBS Bardock.

Besides that, I'd imagine they were trying to give him the Broly treatment. Both Broly and Bardock were among the most popular DB characters, yet Toriyama had little involvement in their original stories. Now there are Toriyama (""""canon"""") versions of them. Seems like a good move for the DB brand: it lets the DB Room refresh (or cash in on, however you want to look at it) already popular characters (instead of putting in time to develop new characters that might not be as popular), it creates an opportunity where Toriyama might use them more (which is good for viewership; old fans and new), it gives Toriyama more credit for these characters (for him it's probably weird that some of the most popular characters are anime-exclusive), and Toyotaro is motivated to write about them (I'm sure he'd love to write Broly if given the opportunity).

Good for the success of the manga, anime, figures, games, etc. In theory, anyway. Maybe not so good for the story, in your opinion.
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:12 pm I'd wager that Toyotaro is complicit for wanting to force Bardock into this arc in the first place.
Come on, is it that horrible of a crime? lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Sat May 14, 2022 12:46 am

batistabus wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:17 am Come on, is it that horrible of a crime? lol
It’s a pretty cynical decision that repeats the same mistake Episode of Bardock made; making Bardock too special, except that at least had the excuse of just being a silly piece of promotion for an arcade game. Plus, having Goku remember his parents comes off as a really bad fanfic idea.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat May 14, 2022 1:23 am

batistabus wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:17 am I like Minus, but it's hardly a story. The Broly version was that plus the rebellion, which is a cool moment, but again, it doesn't go much further in making it a story.
Backstories are just stories within a story -- smaller stories that give context to the real story, to be specific. What I mean to say is that there's a clear throughline and role for Bardock, especially in Broly.

But I think I've said my detailed peace months ago as to why I don't think extending his backstory even further after that film was worth the trouble. There's too much it stands to detract from, and too little (if anything) it stands to add. I could kinda see this coming.
batistabus wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:17 am Come on, is it that horrible of a crime? lol
The inclusion itself isn't, but the reasons behind this inclusion strike me as questionable at best and misguided at worst. If it's primarily for the "brand" as you've proposed, well... we needn't look any further than Heroes to see what kind of irreparable damage soulless corporate schlock can do to the creative output for a character. I'm only generally satisfied with this kind of thing when Toriyama is at the helm.

Were it not for Toyotaro's input, there'd be no Bardock in this arc. Nothing inherently wrong with that in principle, but it's also not necessary, and its execution here retrospectively makes me wish it never happened.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 14, 2022 2:15 am

Me reading what this whole thing has spun off to in this thread between the jaded manga fan and the 2 manga riders who can't seem to fathom any negativity towards the arc beyond how it reads in a vaccum or on a thematic level/merit:

Image

Ultimately, those dudes Tori/Toyo knew at least the basic implications of such a wish and purposefully put it full front and centre off the bat in these released chapter drafts, so it is what it is to me lol. Taking it in stride as while I liked the Moro arc better, I haven't totally not-enjoyed this arc for the past 8 months in spite of it being "an awful time" for some (which I should preface, is about following/reading a monthly manga lmao), so I'm still looking forward to the next chapter and how things wrap up later.
WittyUsername wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:46 am
batistabus wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:17 am Come on, is it that horrible of a crime? lol
It’s a pretty cynical decision that repeats the same mistake Episode of Bardock made; making Bardock too special, except that at least had the excuse of just being a silly piece of promotion for an arcade game. Plus, having Goku remember his parents comes off as a really bad fanfic idea.
I feel it's a little step further from being a cynical decision and slightly more of a misguided idea to add more sentimental pathos. And well, while it's not an idea I think is fundamentally great, the handling of Goku remembering his parents/any potential repressed memories has been fine, I think, if coming from out of the blue. And well, Bardock didn't go SS, so small mercies lmao.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat May 14, 2022 6:10 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:12 pmNo "buts". Lemme give it to you straight, since I think you missed the point; whatever you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm putting down. This is, has been as of last month, and now always will be, in this sequel series - as succinctly as Vegeta himself can put it - an issue of stakes, and of tension, and of predestiny sticking its nose into the symbolism of Goku's character where it doesn't belong. There are no stakes, retroactively, if Goku literally is immune to all manner of death by supernatural forces until he comes of age. It's that simple. That's what we're talking about.
I did, in fact, understand your point. But the reductive 'tension/stakes=whether someone can die or not' argument is a tired one that has never held water for me in Dragon Ball in any case - this being the series where people can die and come back by teatime, worlds can be destroyed and everything can be righted by next Tuesday, and even when people do die, they're actually just fine - so the point is hardly convincing even on a general level, however it's spun or however energetically or eloquently it's pushed. It's just a duff argument in itself that never goes anywhere, so it's hardly more impressive the umpteenth time around - even coming from your good self.

Add to this the fact that Goku has been depicted as practically immune to death from the drop anyway just as a feature of 'what he's like', which is restated across the series in as many ways as could possibly have been contrived, whether by accident or by art of man or monster, and he's rarely ever put in a position where death is even a vaguely relevant question to him. So how can Goku living or dying be a key - really key and thoroughgoing - part of the 'stakes' or reader enjoyment of Dragon Ball when it's not even possible for his death to happen in, e.g., the 22nd Budokai? Or if it's abundantly clear simply from the story cues that it isn't going to happen in, say, his second fight with Tao Pai Pai and the assault on the Red Ribbon base?

Or, indeed, if Uranai Baba has already bluntly foretold that Goku will save the World? Are we supposed to be very upset that Goku's been protected by the confirmation of prophecy that he won't die (or if he does, that it simply won't take) until he's done that much, in #111? Or that the manga itself 'draws our attention' to that fact in #158, in the middle of the fateful battle? This rather does seem like 'predestiny sticking its nose in' on Goku's behalf, doesn't it? But this, in the original Toriyama-written manga, which would never? How frightful

Basically, we've been here before, and it made basically no difference to the reading experience even then - Dragon Ball was still able to trade on stakes and tension just fine, and it still is. Nothing really new to see or get bent out of shape over here either; move along. Or at least dial it back a notch. Dragon Ball's just doing what we've already seen Dragon Ball do. Now, you can argue quite fairly that the retread/remix tendency in Super is itself a problem, but that's a strictly different conversation to have.
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:12 pmOn top of that, there's the (equally apparent, and equally dubious) issue of this going to pretty asinine lengths to explain an element of the original run that didn't need explaining.
Sure, the needless profusion of multiple explanations for things is pretty much always a negative, and I agree with your previous general point that part of Dragon Ball's charm is the serendipitous mash-up of events that make it seem like anything can happen, which is better than portentous over-threading of events to each other so that they're overloaded with significance (though at least #83 and #84 drop the portentousness of it and make it an extremely light thing, with Bardock being glib about it, and Goku and Vegeta having a childish argument over it, which rather does something to enjoyably leaven it, in my view).

But although I acknowledge it as basically a negative point (like others have said, "superfluous", "unnecessary"), I also take the view that it isn't major either way. Like I said before, multiple divine/mundane causation exists in all forms of literature, but doesn't fundamentally change the character's need to fully engage in his own journey to make it come out right. This is just another such. It's just a shrug, to me.
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:12 pmI didn't respond to your initial reply because it's a whataboutism, but also because my addendum in that post already addressed your reply: Toei's Bardock isn't Toriyama's Bardock. They're two different characters. I don't care what the TV special does, and in fact, I've been nothing but vocal about my vehement distaste for that special for years. The last thing I'd want is a parallel to that one in terms of predestination, given its clear thematic repercussions.
Ehhhh. He is and he isn't. The point I'm making is that there is no depiction of Bardock that doesn't trade on some aspect of the character as originally conceived, whether Toriyama rewrites him in key areas or not - doubly so, given the influence of Lonely Final Battle on everyone currently involved in the franchise, from Toriyama down. And in the end, it amounts to basically the same thing - in the original, Bardock doesn't care until he sees the future, and Goku's place is assured in it. In Minus, Bardock does care, and saves Goku so that he's as safe as can be, which Toriyama makes the point of saying assures Goku's confrontation with Freeza in the future. In #83, Bardock makes a wish for Goku to grow up well, which makes Goku safe as can be and assures his place in the future. Plus ca change, my friend. It was always there with Bardock; never hasn't been.

Moreover, since we're reading a story that trades on the specific linkage between the past and the present, and on what makes people the way they are and how they respond to their true selves, one can hardly imagine a more appropriate facet of Bardock's influential original depiction to take forward. By no means am I telling you to enjoy it - you can love and hate what you like, naturally - but I am suggesting it fits and works for the current story, and is a natural and consistent expression of Bardock's character function, as has been evidenced across his various depictions.
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:12 pmAlso, nobody's saying that Goku didn't train in his childhood. Nobody is saying that Gohan's one-time "protection" (which is arguable, since it's framed as a happy coincidence) is tantamount to a sacred dragon contract through adolescence. Sorry, friend, but these are all complete non sequiturs. If he's predetermined to survive and grow up healthy no matter what, it undercuts his struggles regardless of those facts.
See, you say that you recognise it, but frankly, it's clear that you're not actually taking it into account at all. Hence the 'buts' in my last post.

Dragon Ball's stakes are in whether Goku actually prevails against his challenges, not simply in whether or not he dies. Goku can live just fine, but also not prevail, at any number of points in the series. He could've taken the Super Water, gone up against Piccolo, got his ass kicked again and run away to become Future Trunks avant la lettre in a ruined Piccolo-world, for instance. What use is wish-protection then? So it should be abundantly clear that what Goku actually does as a character in that fight (and in his life up to that point) matters more than anything else, whether a prophecy or a wish gets up in the mix.

It's the struggle to prevail as such that makes the story, and the stakes, and the reader interest, because failure is always possible, and the way in which the hero prevails is the prepossessing point of interest - it's on the lips of anyone who asks, 'How is x gonna get out of this one?' (with all of its attendant implied expectation that things will, in fact, be fine in the end). But you know all this. This fixation on story tension being specifically bound up in characters living or dying is just a bizarre piece of tunnel vision.
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:15 amthe 2 manga riders who can't seem to fathom any negativity towards the arc beyond how it reads in a vaccum or on a thematic level/merit
Excuse me, my good fellow - but the way I see it, I'm genuinely enjoying this story which comes from a series I'm a fan of, and consider the particular objection I'm addressing to be seriously overblown once one actually considers how it concretely applies. Is that a problem that justifies derision?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 14, 2022 6:43 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:08 pm
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:25 pmso it may not be the best look to keep going "see, Saiyans are really cool/about accepting one's true self like any other species, Bardock's will has been passed on very epic"
As for this, I don't recognise these sentiments in any post made in this topic, much less in what I was talking about, which is that (a) the wish made connects Bardock and Goku in a specifically Dragon Ball-ish way, such as has been seen before in the series (so it is fundamentally in keeping), (b) it doesn't change the context of Goku's personal agency in his own story in any way that is different to Bardock's original depiction, (c) an independent note about Bardock's change in character depiction over the years - such as it is - suggesting that it may be related to a minor shift in the emphasis on how Saiyans are depicted more generally, and (d) a thematic note (again, independent to the foregoing) on Goku and Vegeta specifically accepting their own true natures. So this seems rather a tangent. Or did you mean the story is trying to push that line? In which case, I don't really see that, either, but to each their own.
The latter yes. Monaito out here slurping on Bardock juice and going "the pride of a race, inc. the Saiyans is about accepting who you really are, thank you Bardock-san for passing this down onto us" when the conceit of the story and the thrust of multiple characters' arcs is about the Saiyans killing (almost) all the Cerealians & Namekians on a planet + the guy centred in helping everyone resolve all those arcs being a willing participant in said genocide (that Monaito himself lived through).
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:10 am
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:15 amthe 2 manga riders who can't seem to fathom any negativity towards the arc beyond how it reads in a vaccum or on a thematic level/merit
Excuse me, my good fellow - but the way I see it, I'm genuinely enjoying this story which comes from a series I'm a fan of, and consider the particular objection I'm addressing to be seriously overblown once one actually considers how it concretely applies. Is that a problem that justifies derision?
Not necessarily, but I do think you seem to be missing the forest for the trees in not understanding why this guy & a load of others don't seem to be on board with this development, in spite of everything lining up and even being potent thematically in a very explainable sense according to you. While some do have raw kneejerk overblown reactions to stuff throughout this arc & manga akin to this wish (I've even talked about this in the last chapter thread), there are times when those reactions have some understandable fuel behind them (in which the understandability is what doesn't seem to be getting through).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat May 14, 2022 7:53 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:43 am The latter yes. Monaito out here slurping on Bardock juice and going "the pride of a race, inc. the Saiyans is about accepting who you really are, thank you Bardock-san for passing this down onto us" when the conceit of the story and the thrust of multiple characters' arcs is about the Saiyans killing (almost) all the Cerealians & Namekians on a planet + the guy centred in helping everyone resolve all those arcs being a willing participant in said genocide (that Monaito himself lived through).
I think there are contrasting elements to this, neither of which should really be let go in interpretation, even though it comes across to us as more of a seesaw than a true nuanced blend (and perhaps it becomes a bit of a 'greywash', in the aggregate).

Bardock knows who he is and acts with the grain of his own self, even when he doesn't know why; this can be for terrible purposes, but can also be turned to good without becoming a pose or a fundamental distraction that he can't follow through on. He's a warlike Saiyan who helps destroy this world (and no doubt many others), but he also has a humane sense that the specific situation plays on by means of the influence of those closest to him, so he is truly himself in both ways, and continues to be when he fights just as hard to protect his newfound charges as he ever did before, and again when the focus turns to saving Kakarot. He's just as effective for good as for bad, though the former impacts a much smaller circle of people.

Granolah embodies the harsh terribleness of the bad (and the first part of the arc was exclusively focused on that), and Monaito knows the somewhat greyer truth of the good, which is also the main thing that is left in the end (hence, I think, the slightly saccharine tone of the lesson, which I agree is maybe a smidge on the nose as delivered, if nevertheless understandable and thematically on-point). I don't personally see this as a 'no harm, no foul, you're a cool dude' perspective from Monaito, but rather due recognition of the fact that Bardock being the way he was and thus true to himself, for good and for bad, is nevertheless his enduring legacy for the people who are taking his part this time around; as readers, of course, we're confident that Goku and Vegeta taking this on board will work out for good overall, because that's in their true natures as well. Just my thoughts on that; take or leave as pleases you - but hopefully it should at least be clear why I don't quite see it as you do (just to elaborate on my original response to you).
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:43 am
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:10 am
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:15 amthe 2 manga riders who can't seem to fathom any negativity towards the arc beyond how it reads in a vaccum or on a thematic level/merit
Excuse me, my good fellow - but the way I see it, I'm genuinely enjoying this story which comes from a series I'm a fan of, and consider the particular objection I'm addressing to be seriously overblown once one actually considers how it concretely applies. Is that a problem that justifies derision?
Not necessarily, but I do think you seem to be missing the forest for the trees in not understanding why this guy & a load of others don't seem to be on board with this development, in spite of everything lining up and even being potent thematically in a very explainable sense according to you. While some do have raw kneejerk overblown reactions to stuff throughout this arc & manga akin to this wish (I've even talked about this in the last chapter thread), there are times when those reactions have some understandable fuel behind them (in which the understandability is what doesn't seem to be getting through).
Well, you see, this isn't really quite what I'm getting at. As far as I am concerned, matters of taste per se don't permit meaningful discussion in the argumentative sense in any case, so that aspect is sort of immaterial to me; I'm merely emphasising that I simply regard the strident and unrelenting fixation on the idea that this ruins everything as pushing things way too far and betokening something of a loss of perspective, given that Original Dragon Ball clearly spun this record in various ways already. I'm not actually uncomprehending of what people are asserting (so by 'I don't see it' and suchlike, what I mean is 'On balance, I do not consider that this position is entirely valid as expressed, for x reasons provided in the post', but naturally I don't always feel like writing like a robot).

People expressing their point of view stridently may seem convincing in some ways because they have conviction, and to a degree their points can be fair enough, but from what I see here, they also seem to me to be fundamentally unbalanced at this stage (and perhaps in general) - so I offer counterpoints (admittedly, sometimes more energetically than is warranted) because I think that this sort of balance is a key part of responsible reading on the whole, whether one comes out of the whole thing enjoying what is presented or not. I don't consider that one has to be, in your charming turn of phrase, a "manga rider" to advocate for that - I'm merely doing my best to be the best reader I can be, is all. It may be a bit silly because, as you say, this is just a monthly manga for youngsters rather than anything genuinely important - but it's an honest, earnest attempt, which in the final analysis is all I can really do.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Sat May 14, 2022 10:01 am

So like what is the point of even having a wish like this be made? It really doesn't add anything to the story and in some ways takes away from the original series. I honestly cannot fathom why Toriyama or Toyotarou decided to do this, its so freaking pointless unless the point was to make Goku a special little boy which would be a dumb addition to his character in the first place and is the last thing that should've been done. God this manga is so ass, literally the only reason its even running is due to the legacy behind it and people buying it due to brand recognition. At this stage I am waiting for the next major revelation to be that Goku and Vegeta are the two direct descendants of the OG SSJG which explains their ability to master God powers so quickly, and it has been their fate since birth to be these two legendary fighters or some stupid stuff like that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat May 14, 2022 10:26 am

So did this wish actually go through? Because in one original, unaltered timeline, Goku died of a heart virus at a very young age. And in another original, unaltered timeline, Goku had his body stolen by Zamasu, who then proceeded to slaughter him and his family. It's only in this timeline that Goku is having a good life, but that's not because of any wish, but because of Trunks coming to warn them about the Androids and Goku Black.

So why does Goku have such a gruesome fate in those original timelines, if he was supposed to have a good and thriving life via Magical Plot Armour?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Sat May 14, 2022 11:26 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:26 am So did this wish actually go through? Because in one original, unaltered timeline, Goku died of a heart virus at a very young age. And in another original, unaltered timeline, Goku had his body stolen by Zamasu, who then proceeded to slaughter him and his family. It's only in this timeline that Goku is having a good life, but that's not because of any wish, but because of Trunks coming to warn them about the Androids and Goku Black.

So why does Goku have such a gruesome fate in those original timelines, if he was supposed to have a good and thriving life via Magical Plot Armour?
I suspect its because he and Raditz both died and thus the wish ended which meant that he was no longer protected from the things you described, or maybe its because he grew up and that caused the wish to end?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by theherodjl » Sat May 14, 2022 4:28 pm

OrangeBanana wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:01 amAt this stage I am waiting for the next major revelation to be that Goku and Vegeta are the two direct descendants of the OG SSJG which explains their ability to master God powers so quickly, and it has been their fate since birth to be these two legendary fighters or some stupid stuff like that.
That's actually not a horrible idea if you attempt to insert the martial arts context of DB as Goku being representative of Yin and Vegeta representative of Yang respectively within that equation. Goku & Vegeta could be descended halves of the original SSJG who keep each other in a harmonious balance of growth, possibly offering an explanation as to why they obtain such a massive power boost whenever they fuse in comparison to most other fusions. If they weren't really anymore special than other Saiyans, why would Goku & Vegeta be so strong in the first place?
It's a bit fan-fic-y admittedly but it's far from the worst idea that they could come up with.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Sat May 14, 2022 5:14 pm

I think folks are ultimately disappointed because Goku not knowing or caring about his parents and his parents presumably being pieces of shit were two pieces of his character that made him stand out from every other battle Shounen protagonist out there.

As with several other writing decisions in modern Dragon Ball, this feels like a bad unconscious influence from Naruto/One Piece/modern Shounen at best, or a cynical attempt at capturing those audiences at worst.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat May 14, 2022 5:20 pm

I think the criticism about Bardock wishing his sons grow up healthy and strong means nullifying Goku's "personal achievements" is hasty at the moment. What if in this very chapter it's said Toronbo made conditions along with it? What if the wish only protected Kakarott from circumstances outside his control up to adult age? So the Saiyan could freely train and become strong.

I think we should wait to see how the arc wraps this up before just saying Goku is ruined.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat May 14, 2022 6:04 pm

I would argue that there's a distinctive difference between totally nullifying one's personal achievements and diminishing the thematic impact of those achievements via over-explanations and lesser stakes/risks. As a writer, you can commit the latter without indulging the former. As a reader, you can take issue with the latter while acknowledging no foul regarding the former. That's what Vegeta did.

In any case, this could very well be a red herring; DB is no stranger to that concept. All I've ever commented on in this thread is a major gripe I took with the previous chapter that was seemingly confirmed in these drafts. Since I don't know what the future holds, I can only opine on this stuff in an isolated context. As per usual, I have nothing to say about the content and thrust of the current chapter until it releases on the 19th.

I'll see you guys then.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zelvin » Sat May 14, 2022 8:03 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:23 am Were it not for Toyotaro's input, there'd be no Bardock in this arc. Nothing inherently wrong with that in principle, but it's also not necessary, and its execution here retrospectively makes me wish it never happened.
With everything that's happened with him in this whole arc, with how they try to keep pushing Bardock as being more important to Goku than he was ever meant to, it comes off as extremely forced. And if it turns out the Wish was granted, it creates a negative impact on the story as a whole. I can wholly agree that the execution of his use in this whole story is completely mishandled.

Everyone knows I've got huge issues regarding a lot of the manga, but I'll just focus on this arc.Specifically Bardock's inclusion and everything surrounding it. From a marketing perspective, Bardock is money. Fans love Bardock. His original Z appearances and inclusion in the games have made him a staple of the franchise. However, much like Wolverine in Marvel, you can overuse a character so much that fans lose interest and can even go as far as to stop caring about both the character and the property if they're not being handled well by the IP holders and writers.

Now, I don't feel having Bardock appear in the flashbacks is inherently bad. The problem comes with making him the Focus of those flashbacks and forming a direct link and comparison to Goku. That's where his inclusion went wrong. By making Bardock the focus and by making his actions Special in comparison to other Saiyans, it erases the entire concept of Goku, and even Bardock himself, as being seen as Low-Class warriors by Saiyan Society. Because if Bardock can do that against Gas and he's Low-Class, then why aren't Elites able to steamroll just about anybody short of Freeza himself?

That whole narrative of Saiyans evolving as they fight was never indicated throughout the series until we got to Broly, and he's an Anomaly among Saiyans. If that was really a thing and even Low-Class's could benefit from such a thing, then Saiyans should've easily been able to exploit this and been practically unstoppable. However, such growth isn't indicated until so far into the series that they're already Gods by the time it's even being expressed, if a small bit.

Back to the story and Bardock, I don't feel he should've been the focus. He should've been tertiary. In the background as the leader of his unit, not as the one we are meant to follow. I believe we should've followed a different Saiyan. One from Bardock's crew who split way from the rest. An older Saiyan who had been Bardock's superior, but stepped down to have Bardock lead because he was getting up there in years and started to grew, and because he'd gotten tired of the extermination orders. He'd be an old Saiyan who wants to fight strong opponents, not waste his strength slaughtering the indefensible. Not because he cares for these people, but because he's grown apathetic towards wasteful killing. It doesn't suit him so he just sticks Bardock with having to get grilled for his crewman farting off somewhere.

This Saiyan could get excited when attacked by Muezli and then quickly lose interest in her as an opponent when she tries to escape with the young Granolah. Maybe following after her, just to see if she'll lead him to some strong resistance so he can get a proper workout. Then you get the Heeters showing up to murder Muezli just as she was about to receive help from Monaito. This would irk the old Saiyan, since there was no reason for such an action and it kept him from being lead to any stronger fighters. Plus he'd very much dislike these slimy opportunists. Weak scum that get by making backward deals with Freeza than claiming what they want by force.

This could lead to a conflict between this Saiyan and the Heeters, resulting in a fight with Gas. In inadvertently allowing Monaito to escape with Granolah, with the Saiyan's focus on aiming to shove Elec's gun down his throat and needing to get passed Gas first. The fight would work better if this Old Saiyan was stronger than Gas' base form with the Saiyan mocking Gas for still being a little snot in diapers. Then Gas releases his instinct and making the fight tougher, closer to being even, but the Saiyan proving stronger still due to his extensive experience. Showing that being close in strength doesn't mean they're close in any other area. And then that's where Gas goes berserk and gains the clear advantage in raw power. That's when it becomes a drag out, bloody, bare-knuckle brawl. With the Saiyan being absolutely ecstatic about the whole affair.

This is when you show the tenacity and pride of a Saiyan. Fighting tooth and nail against a strong opponent and relishing the battle. Gas is stronger, but the Saiyan is resilient. Continuing to take hit after hit and returning the favor each time. Blow after blow, injury compounding injury and just not going down. Confusing and confounding Gas who quickly grows tired because of the stress on his body from using his berserk state. Gas goes for-broke and delivers a fatal injury, believing he's won at last. Only for the Old Saiyan to say something like; "Thanks kid. I needed that." before hammering Gas with everything he's got left and knocking the little bastard out. After which he mutters something about being his fists being too soft from getting old before collapsing. He leaves a final message to Bardock on his scouter, which had been damaged, about getting his greatest wish before finally expiring. A message that affects Bardock's decisions moving forward. Leading to Bardock beginning to think about what he wants, what kind of future awaits him and, ultimately, his family. And yet at the same time being proud and jealous of the old bastard, his former commander, for fighting such a strong opponent.

That, to me, I feel would've made a far better story. To not make it about Goku and Bardock directly, but about just Saiyans themselves. That this Old Saiyan fought to the end for no other reason than to test and prove his strength, regardless of the outcome. Which is different from Saiyans who've been around under Freeza's command, who had it a bit easier when it comes to overall battles with having backup or having Freeza's soldiers softening up a planet's defenders. Which may explain Raditz being a bit more arrogant and cowardly.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Sat May 14, 2022 9:16 pm

It makes sense within the lore of DBs and the fact that it's all leading to enlightenment (which the dragon balls symbolize) since the beginning of the series, Dragon Balls have been the vehicle that allows for all of the events to occur and people to meet. The Dragon Balls are literally Divine power and magic imbued with stone to allow races to "thrive and prosper". Monaito even mentions the true purpose of the balls.
Gokus did not have "plot armor" because the wish was just a vehicle. It carried a series of events and test for Goku of which, he had the freedom and autonomy to make his own choices still (Bardock rejecting the Toronbo first wish). Early in the series, the Dragon Balls were always there for our heroes and were used to restore and alter the balance of the universe and karma.
Even in the original end of Z ending, was changed to have added text in the Kanzenban last page that originally was something along the lines of "as long as Earth has the Dragon Balls, Goku and his friends will always be safe" to as long as Earth has mighty warriors, the earth will be safe. Which is implying that it's NOT the DB or the magic, but the adventure and test to make strong warriors(like Goku and friends) that led to their success.
In Journey to the West, the Buddha scrolls were the source of the adventure and Sun Wukong and his friends became better people due to the adventure and the trials and test. NOT the scrolls themselves.
It's the SAME thing with the Dragon Balls.
Goku is Goku due to his own selfless actions, and the world changes due to our own fate.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun May 15, 2022 12:27 am

Regardless of personal feelings on any part of the chapter preview so far (which I'm not all rosy about, for the record, but holding off on anything along the lines of broad critique until the end), I definitely do appreciate that the Granolah arc feels so ... uncommercial. People will point to its inclusion of a fan-favorite character in Bardock, of course, but even then, his use feels anything but. The wish recontextualization absolutely has the energy of a move made simply because its authors like it or find it interesting in the moment, regardless of how it might be received, which is a kind of classic, real shonen manga energy we haven't much seen from Super. (It's hard to say what conversations its TV-series-adjacent arcs might have prompted, since we didn't get the story content through them first; I suspect some, but even then, none were quite so bold with major recontextualizations like this; erasing Trunks' timeline was probably the most unexpected bit of major series consequence.) Part of what I like about manga--even the major tentpole series--is that they tend to embody that kind of seat-of-their-pants, devil-may-care energy, and it's harder to get out of a V-Jump midquel like Super, much as I tend to enjoy it. That energy isn't always behind great results each and every time, but it's nice and infections that it's there.

It's kind of neat to be getting a taste of how people in 1990 must have felt when Goku's previous improvements were partially attributed to a genetic trait of the Saiyans. Now that's a week you wouldn't have wanted to be online for. Much like this wish, I can see arguments both that that revelation might undermine previous content and that it simply dovetails thematically with what's already there. Either way, I'm glad it had the gall and freedom to go for it.

And I'm not saying that ironically. I thought Super would be kind of void of those moments. I don't know that I'll love the results, but I'm increasingly glad they're here, and increasingly of the thought that I would be a little disappointed were the wish revealed to have been a bait-and-switch beat before the end, even though that would simplify things and make a number of fans happy.

The Granolah arc is certainly a mixed bag, but aside of any specific feelings, I appreciate that it feels like--from lore, to characters, to even structure--it isn't holding anything sacred. It's an energy we haven't really seen from Super before, and I'd always rather have an interesting mess than something tidy but safe.
Zelvin wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:03 pm *snip*
There are some salient and solid ideas in here. I particularly like the ideas for a reimagined approach to the fight.

However, trying to visualize it, I'm not sure it really does the story better to give Bardock's role to a new Saiyan, as I think it potentially invites even more disconnect. Bardock's proximity to Goku allows both the reader and Goku himself to more quickly accept the connection and potential for self-realization. It's convenient, but convenient to a level acceptable for the kind of light genre comic DB/S is, I think, and I don't think anything about Bardock's role has gone so far as to undo his unremarkableness in the greater scheme of Saiyan society. He's just a soldier who got caught up in a whim and demonstrates Saiyan resolution in the fight it gets him into. Just as it can be argued there's no particular reason to use Bardock stripped of his meta popularity, there's also no reason to specifically avoid use of Goku's father where it might be expedient.

Anyway, prediction for posterity: If they keep the armor, it's going to be used for a beat of Granolah giving up the last of his inclination for vengeance, as he sees these reminders of the past and works with them regardless.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Sun May 15, 2022 2:22 am

I think I'm gonna wait for the chapter to be released. I can't be the only one who noticed that they strategically realese these "leaks" to suit their purposes.

The Moro saga was a prime example of this. The online sliver of this fandom is/was wrong 80% of the time with their predictions based on what's "leaked". Even the script of the chapter that comes out right before the English release fails to tell the full story. I've learned my lesson since then.

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