Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
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Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84
民族の誇り
Minzoku no Hokori
Pride of the Race
-------------------------------
Release Information:
JAPAN:
Date: May 20, 2022
Publication: V-Jump, July 2022 Issue
Cost: ¥600
(V-Jump is forward-dated two months from its actual release window. Issues are generally released on the 21st of each month, barring a Sunday or a holiday, in which case the issue gets moved up a day appropriately.)
INTERNATIONAL:
Date: May 19, 2021 (timed to the JP midnight-on-May-20th release)
Publication: Digital (Viz/Shonen Jump + Manga Plus)
Cost: Free
STORYBOARDS/DRAFTS:
The first several pages of any given chapter's roughs/storyboards/drafts have been posted on the official Dragon Ball website for quite some time now (in all likelihood done in an attempt to combat piracy and control the narrative by releasing teases of specific information and context at their own discretion). The drafts for Dragon Ball Super manga chapter 84 were posted on May 13 (Japan time). As these specific articles are generally removed from the website upon the chapter's formal release, archived versions of these links (such as this) are generally shared by fandom.
-------------------------------
THREAD/DISCUSSION INFORMATION
This is the "official" discussion thread for Dragon Ball Super manga chapter 84. All content regarding this specific chapter would be great to include here in this thread, rather than the dedicated / larger / all-encompassing ongoing thread. Posts that are specific to the individual chapter in the gigantic thread with no relevance to the larger series will be reported and/or removed.
Q: When will this thread open?
A: This thread will be opened by a Kanzenshuu moderator when the first official promotion of the respective chapter occurs. This may be when its storyboards are shared, or in some kind of formal news article leading up to that point. Please do not create a separate thread of your own to discuss this chapter.
Q: What is the history behind a [blank]-specific discussion thread?
A: We established episode-specific discussion threads beginning with Dragon Ball Kai in 2011, followed by the Dragon Ball Super television series in 2015. These episode-specific threads allowed people to discuss just that: those specific episodes, without being interrupted by other discussions regarding general production, promotion, etc. We didn't create corresponding Dragon Ball Super manga chapter threads at its debut due to the nature of its production: it was initially billed as a "comicalization" of the television series, and the first arc barely stood on its own as a unique production, rather than supplemental/incidental/disposable. We had kept the larger thread out of inertia from those earlier chapters, and have wavered for literal years over whether or not to separate them out.
Q: We've had worthwhile individual chapters since chapter five. This is absurd. Why are you just starting individual discussion threads something like six years into the manga, when the TV series had it from the start?
A: All of that is correct. Maybe we will go back and pull out threads for past chapters. Maybe we won't. We should have done this a long time ago. Better late than never. This is the plan for now on and is not currently up for discussion or reconsideration. Thank you.
Q: OK, but... so what's the point?
A: At Kanzenshuu we believe in history and preservation. It is worthwhile to future versions of ourselves and entirely new future fans to be able to dig back and find real-time reactions to specific productions (such as a specific episode or chapter). It's much easier to do this when the discussions are separated into these unique threads.
Q: When will new threads be created?
A: Threads for new/upcoming manga chapters will be created by a Kanzenshuu administrator at an appropriate point in time following the release of a previous chapter, and ahead of that next chapter's release schedule (which itself includes the official drafts/storyboards).
Q: OK, so what do you expect us to actually discuss in a chapter thread, particularly ahead of its release?
A: For some time now, Shueisha (in all likelihood to combat "leaks" and illegal piracy) has released "draft" pages of upcoming chapters in the two weeks leading up to any given chapter's release. These are official pieces of information dissemination and absolutely up for discussion. We welcome questions about where and how to legally and officially consume the manga. We do not condone nor allow the discussion or encouragement of piracy. Following a chapter's release, of course anything relating to that chapter and its contents are up for discussion in a specific thread.
Q: What kinds of "sources" can we discuss?
A: You can discuss whatever you want, so long as it lives up to the community guidelines. It is recommended that you link to / discuss actual sources of information, rather than second-hand accounts. Twitter and its users are not "sources" of information. Shueisha has its own official Dragon Ball website and weekly news broadcast on YouTube, which will in all likelihood be your actual primary sources of information leading up to a chapter's release.
Q: What if I have something to say about another chapter that's not this chapter?
A: Is what you have to say/ask/post even tangentially related to this chapter? That's fine. Does it have absolutely nothing to do with this chapter? Post it elsewhere. These chapter-specific threads do not automatically close after a new chapter comes out; you are free to keep discussing a specific chapter for as long as you all feel like talking about it.
Q: So what do we do with the big/main thread?
A: The dedicated / larger / all-encompassing ongoing thread is still perfect for overall/holistic discussion regarding the manga, its production, its promotion, its content relation to other parts of the franchise, etc.
Q: I want to learn more about what's going on with this manga's production!
A: Check out Episode #0489 of our podcast for an extreme deep-dive (with all the receipts you can eat!) into the production of the manga, including all of the ways that Toyotaro, Akira Toriyama, and Victory Uchida each individually contribute to it.
民族の誇り
Minzoku no Hokori
Pride of the Race
-------------------------------
Release Information:
JAPAN:
Date: May 20, 2022
Publication: V-Jump, July 2022 Issue
Cost: ¥600
(V-Jump is forward-dated two months from its actual release window. Issues are generally released on the 21st of each month, barring a Sunday or a holiday, in which case the issue gets moved up a day appropriately.)
INTERNATIONAL:
Date: May 19, 2021 (timed to the JP midnight-on-May-20th release)
Publication: Digital (Viz/Shonen Jump + Manga Plus)
Cost: Free
STORYBOARDS/DRAFTS:
The first several pages of any given chapter's roughs/storyboards/drafts have been posted on the official Dragon Ball website for quite some time now (in all likelihood done in an attempt to combat piracy and control the narrative by releasing teases of specific information and context at their own discretion). The drafts for Dragon Ball Super manga chapter 84 were posted on May 13 (Japan time). As these specific articles are generally removed from the website upon the chapter's formal release, archived versions of these links (such as this) are generally shared by fandom.
-------------------------------
THREAD/DISCUSSION INFORMATION
This is the "official" discussion thread for Dragon Ball Super manga chapter 84. All content regarding this specific chapter would be great to include here in this thread, rather than the dedicated / larger / all-encompassing ongoing thread. Posts that are specific to the individual chapter in the gigantic thread with no relevance to the larger series will be reported and/or removed.
Q: When will this thread open?
A: This thread will be opened by a Kanzenshuu moderator when the first official promotion of the respective chapter occurs. This may be when its storyboards are shared, or in some kind of formal news article leading up to that point. Please do not create a separate thread of your own to discuss this chapter.
Q: What is the history behind a [blank]-specific discussion thread?
A: We established episode-specific discussion threads beginning with Dragon Ball Kai in 2011, followed by the Dragon Ball Super television series in 2015. These episode-specific threads allowed people to discuss just that: those specific episodes, without being interrupted by other discussions regarding general production, promotion, etc. We didn't create corresponding Dragon Ball Super manga chapter threads at its debut due to the nature of its production: it was initially billed as a "comicalization" of the television series, and the first arc barely stood on its own as a unique production, rather than supplemental/incidental/disposable. We had kept the larger thread out of inertia from those earlier chapters, and have wavered for literal years over whether or not to separate them out.
Q: We've had worthwhile individual chapters since chapter five. This is absurd. Why are you just starting individual discussion threads something like six years into the manga, when the TV series had it from the start?
A: All of that is correct. Maybe we will go back and pull out threads for past chapters. Maybe we won't. We should have done this a long time ago. Better late than never. This is the plan for now on and is not currently up for discussion or reconsideration. Thank you.
Q: OK, but... so what's the point?
A: At Kanzenshuu we believe in history and preservation. It is worthwhile to future versions of ourselves and entirely new future fans to be able to dig back and find real-time reactions to specific productions (such as a specific episode or chapter). It's much easier to do this when the discussions are separated into these unique threads.
Q: When will new threads be created?
A: Threads for new/upcoming manga chapters will be created by a Kanzenshuu administrator at an appropriate point in time following the release of a previous chapter, and ahead of that next chapter's release schedule (which itself includes the official drafts/storyboards).
Q: OK, so what do you expect us to actually discuss in a chapter thread, particularly ahead of its release?
A: For some time now, Shueisha (in all likelihood to combat "leaks" and illegal piracy) has released "draft" pages of upcoming chapters in the two weeks leading up to any given chapter's release. These are official pieces of information dissemination and absolutely up for discussion. We welcome questions about where and how to legally and officially consume the manga. We do not condone nor allow the discussion or encouragement of piracy. Following a chapter's release, of course anything relating to that chapter and its contents are up for discussion in a specific thread.
Q: What kinds of "sources" can we discuss?
A: You can discuss whatever you want, so long as it lives up to the community guidelines. It is recommended that you link to / discuss actual sources of information, rather than second-hand accounts. Twitter and its users are not "sources" of information. Shueisha has its own official Dragon Ball website and weekly news broadcast on YouTube, which will in all likelihood be your actual primary sources of information leading up to a chapter's release.
Q: What if I have something to say about another chapter that's not this chapter?
A: Is what you have to say/ask/post even tangentially related to this chapter? That's fine. Does it have absolutely nothing to do with this chapter? Post it elsewhere. These chapter-specific threads do not automatically close after a new chapter comes out; you are free to keep discussing a specific chapter for as long as you all feel like talking about it.
Q: So what do we do with the big/main thread?
A: The dedicated / larger / all-encompassing ongoing thread is still perfect for overall/holistic discussion regarding the manga, its production, its promotion, its content relation to other parts of the franchise, etc.
Q: I want to learn more about what's going on with this manga's production!
A: Check out Episode #0489 of our podcast for an extreme deep-dive (with all the receipts you can eat!) into the production of the manga, including all of the ways that Toyotaro, Akira Toriyama, and Victory Uchida each individually contribute to it.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
So the wish was indeed granted. Goku and Raditz were both affected by it, possibly throughout their lives until they both died together. We only had one month of ambiguity.
I won't say for sure, but these images imply to me that the assault on Cereal was the last thing Bardock did before sending Goku to Earth. Hopefully that's not the case and I'm missing some context, I really would like to avoid more problems in regards to the years.
I won't say for sure, but these images imply to me that the assault on Cereal was the last thing Bardock did before sending Goku to Earth. Hopefully that's not the case and I'm missing some context, I really would like to avoid more problems in regards to the years.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
Yeah, Inherit the pride/will, not the sins of the race. You are what you are; accept it!
Bardock's wish coming to pass was predictable. When those balls scattered it was a done deal.
Bardock's wish coming to pass was predictable. When those balls scattered it was a done deal.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
It should hardly come as a surprise that the wish was actually made. Any ambiguity in that specific context is pointless and would have added nothing. It's also not really in Monaito's character to just ignore Bardock's request.
Still, ugh. I absolutely hate this.
Still, ugh. I absolutely hate this.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
I don’t really get why the wish is even a thing? Bardock made the decision himself to send Goku away and Raditz was lucky enough to be with Vegeta off-planet before it got destroyed. We didn’t need a wish to back that all up.
Also… they both end up dying in the Saiyan arc anyway. Is there an expiry date on the wish or something?
Also… they both end up dying in the Saiyan arc anyway. Is there an expiry date on the wish or something?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
I think the wish was likely made, but what we see here is still just Vegeta's interpretation. It's possible Monaito would correct Vegeta if the wish wasn't granted, but he is more concerned about Bardock passing on his will at the moment. To me it is still ambiguous, and I don't mind it one way or another. The original series exists unaffected by this retcon, and the plot point serves the objectives of this arc.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
It doesn't look like it was the case. The flashback seems to cover a larger períod of time since we see panels of Bardock and Gine living their regular lifes (also with Raditz), Bardock's tail is back and the Goku looks bigger when he was sent to Earth.Grimlock wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:32 pm I won't say for sure, but these images imply to me that the assault on Cereal was the last thing Bardock did before sending Goku to Earth. Hopefully that's not the case and I'm missing some context, I really would like to avoid more problems in regards to the years.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
Vegeta assumes the wish went through, but for some reason we didn't see Monaito making the wish. Assuming he actually did it, I don't like it. However it's not a big deal, because it didn't give a power up to Goku or made him immortal.
Like any other low class, Goku was supposed to be sent away and his goal was to conquer a planet. Turns out he was sent away because his parents wanted to protect him and it was wished for him to have plot armor. By being the main character he already has plot armor by default... It's just another unnecessary (and bad) thing by Toriyama and that's why I don't like it. They could tell this story without this detail, just like they could tell FT Trunks arc story without revealing Goku never kissed his wife on the mouth...
As for the gap between Bardock vs Gas and DB Minus it may be some time, because Gas cut Bardock's tail and it needed time to grow again.
Like any other low class, Goku was supposed to be sent away and his goal was to conquer a planet. Turns out he was sent away because his parents wanted to protect him and it was wished for him to have plot armor. By being the main character he already has plot armor by default... It's just another unnecessary (and bad) thing by Toriyama and that's why I don't like it. They could tell this story without this detail, just like they could tell FT Trunks arc story without revealing Goku never kissed his wife on the mouth...
As for the gap between Bardock vs Gas and DB Minus it may be some time, because Gas cut Bardock's tail and it needed time to grow again.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
Can't agree with that now. Goku did die to the heart virus without Trunks in the original timeline. Piccolo also killed Goku and Raditz the moment the wish ended. It shows that without it Goku wouldn't survive through all of DB now.FortuneSSJ wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 12:11 amBy being the main character he already has plot armour by default...
This really explains so much yet takes away even more... bad decision.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
You really think Toriyama had this wish in mind back then?Xeogran wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 12:26 amCan't agree with that now. Goku did die to the heart virus without Trunks in the original timeline. Piccolo also killed Goku and Raditz the moment the wish ended. It shows that without it Goku wouldn't survive through all of DB now.FortuneSSJ wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 12:11 amBy being the main character he already has plot armour by default...
This really explains so much yet takes away even more... bad decision.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
Of course he didn't, he's not the type to plan 30 years in advance (Aizen-sama? ) but we have to look at DB this way now. That's how retcons work.FortuneSSJ wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 12:44 am You really think Toriyama had this wish in mind back then?
Last edited by Xeogran on Fri May 13, 2022 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
I find it nice that Goku was actually saved by the Dragon Balls and that Bardock only was a proxy for it.
Considering that the serie is called Dragon Ball…
It also further differentiates Goku from Superman, I guess.
Considering that the serie is called Dragon Ball…
It also further differentiates Goku from Superman, I guess.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
But it irks me it's not the Earth's Dragon who saved him and some random, asspull one. Considering the ties Goku has to our Shenron and not Torombo. It all feels so scripted and fake.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
What is the point of Bardock's wish? Why did Toyo feel the need to do such a thing? What purpose does it serve? All it seems to do is to take away from Goku's achievements...
I was already disappointed by Bardock's sudden white-knightery with the Cerealian mom and kid, but this just makes things worse.
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Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
Goku won all of his fights 1v1 as a kid, now possibly thanks to that wish
Moment he reaches adulthood and that wish wears off, Goku gets bopped in every major battle.
Killed facing Raditz, so his first post wish battle he dies
Vegeta beats the man into a cripple, needs to be saved
Gets his body stolen by Ginyu. Needs the homies to jump in and save him against Freeza
Gets a heart attack, needs a future homie to save him
Dies against Cell
Needs the homies to help him against Boo
Damn my guy looking bad here
Moment he reaches adulthood and that wish wears off, Goku gets bopped in every major battle.
Killed facing Raditz, so his first post wish battle he dies
Vegeta beats the man into a cripple, needs to be saved
Gets his body stolen by Ginyu. Needs the homies to jump in and save him against Freeza
Gets a heart attack, needs a future homie to save him
Dies against Cell
Needs the homies to help him against Boo
Damn my guy looking bad here
Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
And people said Bardock is still the same "bad guy" from the TV special, yet we never see him kill a single Cerealian and conveniently even in his Oozaru form he was just "on the watch". Yep, that's it. Bad Bardock is no more.PurestEvil wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 2:32 am I was already disappointed by Bardock's sudden white-knightery with the Cerealian mom and kid, but this just makes things worse.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
Why would anyone think the old and modern Bardocks were the same? It should have been apparent that the modern character is a separate entity since DB Broly, if not DB-.Xeogran wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 4:46 amAnd people said Bardock is still the same "bad guy" from the TV special, yet we never see him kill a single Cerealian and conveniently even in his Oozaru form he was just "on the watch". Yep, that's it. Bad Bardock is no more.PurestEvil wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 2:32 am I was already disappointed by Bardock's sudden white-knightery with the Cerealian mom and kid, but this just makes things worse.
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Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
Everything that I feared about re-introducing Bardock in the main story, especially from the recontextualised version in Dragon Ball Minus, came to fruition.
The byproduct of Bardock becoming a cliche anti-hero has resulted in him having an adverse effect on the development of Goku's growth as a character and that has, in turn, absolutely kneecapped MANY themes in the original story.
Goku's agency as a character, at least in his early years, has literally been stripped from him because Bardock just had to have a significant impact on the plot because he's Goku's father. And by the law of storytelling, all parents MUST have some sort of significance in the development of the character, especially if they're the main character.
Not to mention Bardock's "wish" practically character assassinates every mentor that played a role in moulding Goku's character as a martial artist and a person in general (specifically Grandpa Gohan and Master Roshi).
Ugh.
Just...
ugh...
Fuck Dragon Ball Minus for laying the foundation for this shit to happen.
The byproduct of Bardock becoming a cliche anti-hero has resulted in him having an adverse effect on the development of Goku's growth as a character and that has, in turn, absolutely kneecapped MANY themes in the original story.
Goku's agency as a character, at least in his early years, has literally been stripped from him because Bardock just had to have a significant impact on the plot because he's Goku's father. And by the law of storytelling, all parents MUST have some sort of significance in the development of the character, especially if they're the main character.
Not to mention Bardock's "wish" practically character assassinates every mentor that played a role in moulding Goku's character as a martial artist and a person in general (specifically Grandpa Gohan and Master Roshi).
Ugh.
Just...
ugh...
Fuck Dragon Ball Minus for laying the foundation for this shit to happen.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
So Goku always prevails and keeps one upping everyone thoughout the series is because of the wish?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread
Well, I'll eat crow for speculating on the ambiguity of a wish being made/thinking one wasn't made in the last thread, with Tori/Toyo going out of their way to have Vegeta touch/bandy about that with Goku in this chapter off the bat (while Monaito doesn't really go out of his way to correct them, though you can still try to interpret some ambiguity of a wish being made even there), but I'm pretty cautious on making any more extreme judgments from what we see here up till the leaked summary. One thing's for certain at least, it's gonna be another bumpy DBS month (though I'm not sure how the arc resolves from here on out, good chance it's "Saiyan spirit-powered" UI and UE vs Gas, as the guy who the arc's named after is still KO'd lmao).
The 'wish' (however it came into effect for how vague it is) as originally translated indicates Goku/Raditz only "growing up healthy and strong" into adulthood, and thus at most canceled out when they both met/killed each other as adults with Raditz basically staying dead up till now (unless you count him thriving as a SS3 in the Heroes manga lol) or at the very least is just pure sentiment from Bardock (or that it only just helped both of them survive Vegeta's destruction). Make of & extrapolate from that as you will (like Goku surviving Tao's Dodon Ray, Blue's shotgun and King Piccolo stopping his heart), or just dismiss it.mute_proxy wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 6:33 am So Goku always prevails and keeps one upping everyone thoughout the series is because of the wish?
Dude still helped in wrecking the planet and its people, plus "canonically" helps in killing at least one more planet's inhabitants afterward with glee (though it conveniently gets skimmed over in Broly), though I'm also not too fond of the "wow Bardock, your pure Saiyan pride legacy" dickeating stuff.Xeogran wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 4:46 amAnd people said Bardock is still the same "bad guy" from the TV special, yet we never see him kill a single Cerealian and conveniently even in his Oozaru form he was just "on the watch". Yep, that's it. Bad Bardock is no more.PurestEvil wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 2:32 am I was already disappointed by Bardock's sudden white-knightery with the Cerealian mom and kid, but this just makes things worse.
Idk about back then, but I'm guessing he does now since Toyo (apparently) has no authority over this kind of stuff despite him being the one to propose bringing Bardock into the story.FortuneSSJ wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 12:44 amYou really think Toriyama had this wish in mind back then?Xeogran wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 12:26 amCan't agree with that now. Goku did die to the heart virus without Trunks in the original timeline. Piccolo also killed Goku and Raditz the moment the wish ended. It shows that without it Goku wouldn't survive through all of DB now.FortuneSSJ wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 12:11 amBy being the main character he already has plot armour by default...
This really explains so much yet takes away even more... bad decision.
Last edited by Shorty GZ2 on Fri May 13, 2022 7:18 am, edited 3 times in total.