Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Sun May 22, 2022 6:55 am

Guys and girls listen, *inhales copium* Maybe at the end of the arc monaito is going to reveal that the wish was not granted and the reason he did not say anything to Vegeta is because he is old and his hearing is bad :thumbup:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Sun May 22, 2022 8:26 am

This discussion surrounding the wish's negative impact on the overall theme of DB is dumb and misleading.
It's as dumb as saying to an athlete that their effort hold no moral value because they aren't cripple.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by nineko » Sun May 22, 2022 10:44 am

I've been reading this forum for a few months now, I can as well start sharing my opinions.

Here's one: as much as I like the iconic outfits of the Saiyan duo, I think it would have been neat to see them fight in Bardock's armor. Heck, I expected Goku to wear his father's scouter, too. And Vegeta's objection about the jacket makes no sense, back on Namek he was the one who explained the features of the Saiyan armours to Kuririn, including the differences between old and new models, and how they're supposed to always fit the wearer (in fact, even back then some of his explanation made no sense, but that's for another topic).

Overall, I agree with everyone who says that this arc is dragging on for way too long.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Sun May 22, 2022 10:47 am

Jinto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:26 am This discussion surrounding the wish's negative impact on the overall theme of DB is dumb and misleading.
It's as dumb as saying to an athlete that their effort hold no moral value because they aren't cripple.
What an idiotic analogy that misrepresents the problems with Bardock's wish. Dare I say, it is "dumb an misleading", too!

Bardock literally wished for his sons to thrive/grow up strong. Before this plot point was added, Goku's achievements were attributed to his own organic development with a few strokes of luck involved (which does happen in real life). The most extreme implications that can be drawn from the wish is that Goku (and Raditz) were ensured to survive throughout their childhood and become strong guys. If this is true, then it removes that "organic" nature of Goku's growth and retroactively attributes Goku's successes to something that had to do with someone else's actions that did not involve himself. That is quite frankly dull.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Sun May 22, 2022 10:58 am

nineko wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:44 am I've been reading this forum for a few months now, I can as well start sharing my opinions.

Here's one: as much as I like the iconic outfits of the Saiyan duo, I think it would have been neat to see them fight in Bardock's armor. Heck, I expected Goku to wear his father's scouter, too. And Vegeta's objection about the jacket makes no sense, back on Namek he was the one who explained the features of the Saiyan armours to Kuririn, including the differences between old and new models, and how they're supposed to always fit the wearer (in fact, even back then some of his explanation made no sense, but that's for another topic).

Overall, I agree with everyone who says that this arc is dragging on for way too long.
Vegeta's current armor is a more advanced model so I'm not sure he's still used to or comfortable wearing the older models. Plus, to better utilize Ultra Ego he has to sustain damage, which is probably why he ditched the armor all together now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun May 22, 2022 11:45 am

We had to dig up Bardock from the grave to provide "Saiyan Pride" when there's a whole other Universe with a Saiyan civilization thriving with connections to our own Saiyans.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 22, 2022 11:53 am

But if we want to make this interesting, they shouldn't have anything resembling "Saiyan Pride". They should have something along the lines of "Saiyan Justice" or whatever. They are, after all, from another Universe. Other philosophy, other ways of living, other point of view... Well, they should be different (otherwise, what would be the point in coming up with a Multiverse filled with different people?).

Hell, coming to think of it, maybe all these recolors we (well, I) have to put up with these days would be better if they were the standard transformations for these other Saiyans. Too bad it isn't the case, though.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sun May 22, 2022 4:13 pm

LightBing wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:45 am We had to dig up Bardock from the grave to provide "Saiyan Pride" when there's a whole other Universe with a Saiyan civilization thriving with connections to our own Saiyans.
Vegeta himself had to break some Saiyan Pride into Cabba at the U6 tourney once he found Cabba couldn't turn SS & when Cabba was about to just concede (rather than standing his ground) after getting an ass whooping. Though I don't find the U6 Saiyans & whatever future story possibilities they have as too interesting in that regard, as much as say, Bardock or any other random self-respecting Saiyan (man in question is just here for name recognition & Goku linkage) reminding Vegeta of something he had been losing sight of & helped him to reconcile it back.

And well, Grimlock is right that it would've been more fun/creative to have more inter-universe differences between Saiyans beyond mostly superficial/fluffy aspects like "U6 Saiyans have no tails, have more potential than & are moreso protectors instead of the U7 savages/military contractors, they live on a different home planet" or any non-superficial differences between practically any other universe (like different ki systems or whatever). But oh well.
nineko wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:44 am I've been reading this forum for a few months now, I can as well start sharing my opinions.

Here's one: as much as I like the iconic outfits of the Saiyan duo, I think it would have been neat to see them fight in Bardock's armor. Heck, I expected Goku to wear his father's scouter, too. And Vegeta's objection about the jacket makes no sense, back on Namek he was the one who explained the features of the Saiyan armours to Kuririn, including the differences between old and new models, and how they're supposed to always fit the wearer (in fact, even back then some of his explanation made no sense, but that's for another topic).

Overall, I agree with everyone who says that this arc is dragging on for way too long.
Going out to face Gas in Saiyan armour might have been cool looking, but I think that's a little too close to treading a potentially dangerous line/message (esp when Granolah the genocide-by-infantry survivor wakes up and has to work with the Saiyans to help beat Gas, which would be a little shifty if he had to do so while said Saiyans are in infantry gear). Goku & Vegeta disavowing Saiyan armour at least helps edge the arc's thematic championing of pride/virtues over to tie it to them as individuals than the race itself. And yes the arc climax is dragging by this point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zillamon51 » Sun May 22, 2022 4:49 pm

Serious question: Has the meta concept of "plot armor" ever been officially canonized in any other franchise, especially so far into its run?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 22, 2022 5:06 pm

Harry Potter also had "plot armor" throughout his childhood. His mother's sacrifice gave him a shield, which is why Voldemort/Quirinus Quirrell couldn't touch him. Though I don't know if Harry Potter has a canon, I think it's the same situation with Dragon Ball, lack of it.

By the way, Goku is now the combination of Kal-El and Harry Potter. Harry Kal-Elkarotto Potter. :)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Sun May 22, 2022 5:37 pm

I don't understand the Superman comparisons people have been bringing up since Minus. Besides the barest, surface level similarities of sending a kid to another planet, the two are nothing alike.

Jor-el sent his son to Earth so he'd survive, sure but he chose the planet because Kal would grow up into a God there. He planned it for a while and everything. Then it was added that he was sent to bring hope to the people.

Bardock did it on a whim, and sent him to earth because he felt Goku was a loser with no potential and he'd at least be safe there where the people are even weaker. The sole motivation was "not die son"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zelvin » Sun May 22, 2022 5:46 pm

Cipher wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:27 am There are some salient and solid ideas in here. I particularly like the ideas for a reimagined approach to the fight.

However, trying to visualize it, I'm not sure it really does the story better to give Bardock's role to a new Saiyan, as I think it potentially invites even more disconnect. Bardock's proximity to Goku allows both the reader and Goku himself to more quickly accept the connection and potential for self-realization. It's convenient, but convenient to a level acceptable for the kind of light genre comic DB/S is, I think, and I don't think anything about Bardock's role has gone so far as to undo his unremarkableness in the greater scheme of Saiyan society. He's just a soldier who got caught up in a whim and demonstrates Saiyan resolution in the fight it gets him into. Just as it can be argued there's no particular reason to use Bardock stripped of his meta popularity, there's also no reason to specifically avoid use of Goku's father where it might be expedient.
Going back to this, I honestly don't feel it could cause a greater disconnect with the audience. Certainly not anything worse than what has already transpired as a result of overusing Bardock as a central figure in the story. Yes, they want to draw more parallels between Goku and Bardock, however what we have been seeing is that the more they try and show of Bardock, the more the audience doesn't want to see of him. Some of the earlier arguments for this Arc was that it was supposed to be Granolah's story and all the work Goku and Vegeta did to prop him up against Gas has ultimately become entirely wasteful. Who knows, maybe they'll let him get the final shot up, but much like with every other arc in the series, Goku's the one who gets the most to do and everyone else gets benched.

And I will argue that by focusing on Bardock like this and have him literally beating someone many, many times stronger than him through something as nebulous as "Saiyan Resolution" that appears as a straight up mid-fight Power Up that goes entirely unexplained in how that's supposed to work, removes the whole concept of him being an Average Saiyan or a Low-Class Warrior. By comparison, he just took out someone who may've been the equivalent to a Transformed Zarbon. Someone whom Vegeta got demolished by in his first fight against and he was far stronger than Bardock.

That's why the more you make Bardock appear to be special, the more it takes away from Goku since it means he gets all of his Special'ness from Bardock. Plus, I don't find the use of Bardock expedited the Story. In fact all these flashbacks and pauses in the fight did nothing but drag the story out unnecessarily. Instead, a lot of that could've been cut and after dumping Gas off at the far end of space, Goku and the rest could've gotten together to formulate a plan to bring Gas down. Something that could take Gas down in one hit to stop him from pulling yet another power out of his ass that was magically put there by the Wish Dragon. Which could've worked better like how Goku and Piccolo brought down Raditz. Distract and pin down the target before hitting them with an attack too strong for them to defend against.

Except here, it'd be Goku and Vegeta working in unison to distract and break Gas' focus, keeping him from noticing Granolah who's far out of range of the immediate fighting, preparing an attack. They have portrayed Granolah as more of a Marksman and hitting everyone's most vulnerable points. If they want him to be the one to finish the fight, they need to focus back on that. Make Granolah a Sniper. Have him preparing his attack from afar and waiting for the perfect moment to take Gas out. That one instant where his guard is down or when he's in a position where he can't defend or react to the attack. Because right now Gas believes Granolah is out of commission. Even if he's alive, he's in a critical state. This could give the team that one minute edge against Gas to be used with surgical precision.

This I feel would be the best way for them to win. Not by "evolving and getting stronger", but by exploiting their enemies weaknesses. By fighting tooth and nail to earn that victory, like they did against Jiren.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun May 22, 2022 8:10 pm

Jinto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:26 am This discussion surrounding the wish's negative impact on the overall theme of DB is dumb and misleading.
It's as dumb as saying to an athlete that their effort hold no moral value because they aren't cripple.
that's...not a good analogy. Like at all. I actually have no idea what you're trying to say.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun May 22, 2022 8:16 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:06 pm Harry Potter also had "plot armor" throughout his childhood. His mother's sacrifice gave him a shield, which is why Voldemort/Quirinus Quirrell couldn't touch him. Though I don't know if Harry Potter has a canon, I think it's the same situation with Dragon Ball, lack of it.

By the way, Goku is now the combination of Kal-El and Harry Potter. Harry Kal-Elkarotto Potter. :)
But that's not the same though. And even then, through out the Harry Potter series, the story found complexity in the "boy who lived" legacy. Sure Potter survived Voldemort's attack, but his parents died, he was forced to live in an abusive household for years, and even when he became a wizard, went through signficant amount of struggle to finally defeat Voldemort.

That is not the same as a mystical all powerful Dragon ensuring that you grow up healthy and strong due to a wish.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Sun May 22, 2022 10:54 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:47 am
Jinto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:26 am This discussion surrounding the wish's negative impact on the overall theme of DB is dumb and misleading.
It's as dumb as saying to an athlete that their effort hold no moral value because they aren't cripple.
What an idiotic analogy that misrepresents the problems with Bardock's wish. Dare I say, it is "dumb an misleading", too!

Bardock literally wished for his sons to thrive/grow up strong. Before this plot point was added, Goku's achievements were attributed to his own organic development with a few strokes of luck involved (which does happen in real life). The most extreme implications that can be drawn from the wish is that Goku (and Raditz) were ensured to survive throughout their childhood and become strong guys. If this is true, then it removes that "organic" nature of Goku's growth and retroactively attributes Goku's successes to something that had to do with someone else's actions that did not involve himself. That is quite frankly dull.
He didn't wish for them to be strong, To thrive doesn't mean to be strong, and looking at how Raditz turned out, we can easily infer that either the wish wasn't made or it's intended application (or Monaito's wording) was for their survival.
Saying Goku's achievement are "dull" because a wish made him survive IS dumb.
Again, it is not the wish that made Goku love fighting and train his ass, meet friend, go on journey,... , there are many application the wish had but you just choose to complain about an application that's most likely untrue.
So again, I'm not seeing the "dull" here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon May 23, 2022 4:55 am

I believe Vegeta's statement was used to clarify what the wish meant. He references how Bardock's wish is the reason why Goku survived when he was young which can be inferred as him leaving Planet Vegeta. I think it's fine but ultimately pointless given that Bardock's own intuition was what clued him on what Frieza was planning anyways. That would've been enough reason for him to rescue his sons. Looking back on things, it's also out of place for Bardock to make such a passionate wish when he's caught up on the thrill of the fight and focused primarily on winning. It seemed out-of-character.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon May 23, 2022 5:27 am

Jinto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:54 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:47 am
Jinto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:26 am This discussion surrounding the wish's negative impact on the overall theme of DB is dumb and misleading.
It's as dumb as saying to an athlete that their effort hold no moral value because they aren't cripple.
What an idiotic analogy that misrepresents the problems with Bardock's wish. Dare I say, it is "dumb an misleading", too!

Bardock literally wished for his sons to thrive/grow up strong. Before this plot point was added, Goku's achievements were attributed to his own organic development with a few strokes of luck involved (which does happen in real life). The most extreme implications that can be drawn from the wish is that Goku (and Raditz) were ensured to survive throughout their childhood and become strong guys. If this is true, then it removes that "organic" nature of Goku's growth and retroactively attributes Goku's successes to something that had to do with someone else's actions that did not involve himself. That is quite frankly dull.
He didn't wish for them to be strong, To thrive doesn't mean to be strong, and looking at how Raditz turned out, we can easily infer that either the wish wasn't made or it's intended application (or Monaito's wording) was for their survival.
Saying Goku's achievement are "dull" because a wish made him survive IS dumb.
Again, it is not the wish that made Goku love fighting and train his ass, meet friend, go on journey,... , there are many application the wish had but you just choose to complain about an application that's most likely untrue.
So again, I'm not seeing the "dull" here.
Bardock flat out say that he wishes that Goku and Raditz grow up to be strong men in the original Japanese text. The English translated version from Viz adds a bit more ambiguity by having Bardock say he wants Goku and Raditz to thrive.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon May 23, 2022 5:44 am

Jinto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:54 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:47 am
Jinto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:26 am This discussion surrounding the wish's negative impact on the overall theme of DB is dumb and misleading.
It's as dumb as saying to an athlete that their effort hold no moral value because they aren't cripple.
What an idiotic analogy that misrepresents the problems with Bardock's wish. Dare I say, it is "dumb an misleading", too!

Bardock literally wished for his sons to thrive/grow up strong. Before this plot point was added, Goku's achievements were attributed to his own organic development with a few strokes of luck involved (which does happen in real life). The most extreme implications that can be drawn from the wish is that Goku (and Raditz) were ensured to survive throughout their childhood and become strong guys. If this is true, then it removes that "organic" nature of Goku's growth and retroactively attributes Goku's successes to something that had to do with someone else's actions that did not involve himself. That is quite frankly dull.
He didn't wish for them to be strong, To thrive doesn't mean to be strong, and looking at how Raditz turned out, we can easily infer that either the wish wasn't made or it's intended application (or Monaito's wording) was for their survival.
Saying Goku's achievement are "dull" because a wish made him survive IS dumb.
Again, it is not the wish that made Goku love fighting and train his ass, meet friend, go on journey,... , there are many application the wish had but you just choose to complain about an application that's most likely untrue.
So again, I'm not seeing the "dull" here.
1. To "thrive" in the context of Saiyan culture does actually entail being strong.
2. Raditz did actually become pretty strong, do you not remember him fighting Goku and Piccolo?
3. I am afraid Bardock said in the Japanese version that he wanted to see his sons grow strong, not just "surviving".
4. There is nothing to suggest that Monaito changed the wording of Bardock's wish. There isn't even a good reason for Monaito to do that.
5. I didn't claim the wish predestined Goku's entire childhood, I said that it would have ensured Goku would have been successful in his endeavors. It's dull because it would retroactively belittle the deadly conflicts he faced in his childhood, as I already explained.
6. Yet again, you accuse me and others for complaining about an interpretation you do not agree with while your own interpretation isn't even backed by logic. Sure, I admit that there is a chance, however small, that my interpretation is wrong (I actually hope so), but that is why I referred to the wish's possible effects as implications. We will have to wait, hope Toyotarou gives us some more crumbs, and see what this is about.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon May 23, 2022 6:33 am

Zillamon51 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:49 pm Serious question: Has the meta concept of "plot armor" ever been officially canonized in any other franchise, especially so far into its run?
Bleach's protagonist Ichigo had his entire life planned out by the main antagonist(s).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Mon May 23, 2022 9:29 am

Bardock's wish in Japanese is for his sons to grow up well. Herms and I translated it as "strong and healthy," of variations thereof, because that's the more natural phrase for equivalent wishes in English ("Hope my kids reach adulthood okay"), but "strong" isn't actually part of the Japanese.

Which just shows what a minefield lore- or strength-minded fan readings mixed with attempts at natural English dialogue can be. Which is what wound the otherwise fine "thrived" in hot water in the first place.

At minimum: It helps Goku and Raditz survive Vegeta's destruction and is a one-and-done.

At maximum: It ensures the two reach adulthood healthily, but that's it.

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