Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Mon May 23, 2022 10:08 am

Like I keep saying--this is ultimately the problem. That we have to have this conversation in the first place, and attempt to figure out what exactly that wish means takes away from the potential impact of the story. That's not on the fans--that's on the writers. Because again...why didn't they just keep it the way it was-- that it just happened to be happenstance: Raditz happened to be on a mission, and Goku was sent to earth because he was a weakling. Why was this changed? That's the real issue here, not how effective was the actual wish. I think some people are attempting to dismiss or demphasize the issue to justify it, and I think that's wrongheaded. This is not a harmless bit of storytelling; this is something that entirely changes precisely how we're meant to interpret Goku's origins. Claiming that it didn't actually affect Goku kind of prove my point--because it's a pointless bit of storytelling that only makes things vague.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon May 23, 2022 11:00 am

kemuri07 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:16 pmBut that's not the same though.
Different kinds of plot armor is still plot armor. Not that I ever said they were the same, though.
kemuri07 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:16 pmAnd even then, through out the Harry Potter series, the story found complexity in the "boy who lived" legacy. Sure Potter survived Voldemort's attack, but his parents died, he was forced to live in an abusive household for years, and even when he became a wizard, went through signficant amount of struggle to finally defeat Voldemort.
And even then, throughout the Dragon Ball series, the story "found complexity" in the "destined boy" legacy. Sure, Goku survived Vegeta's destruction, but his mother died (and his dad is... "missing in action" (?)), he was forced to live alone for maybe years, and even when he learned he was a Saiyan, went through a significant amount of struggle to finally defeat Freeza.
kemuri07 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:16 pmThat is not the same as a mystical all powerful Dragon ensuring that you grow up healthy and strong due to a wish.
Like I said, or better yet, like I didn't say, I never said they were the same. But yes, they both had plot armors no matter how you slice it, how you prefer to see it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Mon May 23, 2022 11:05 am

I think, in general, the Super manga has been a competent successor to Toriyama's work. It's obviously not as grand in scope as the "Z" portion of the series, but that's fine. It successfully achieves what it sets out to do more often than not, especially pre-Moro, and has felt more in tune with the original manga than its anime counterpart or anything in the franchise prior to Battle of Gods. However "safe" people feel Super's arcs might be, that's something to be lauded.

That's why this arc is so aggravating on a fundamental level. To me it doesn't feel in line with DB at all, nor the rest of the DBS manga or even its own structural/focal points since Gas showed up two volumes ago. Some folks still enjoy it and think it's solid material, and that's cool. They're entitled to their opinion, even if it's not one I share by a long shot. I would further add that if the manga was like this from the start, I'd have hopped off the Super train a long time ago.

I don't necessarily agree with everyone claiming it's more ambitious than Moro, either; while I've said that it definitely was at the beginning, this currently feels more like a generic old Toei movie than anything in the mainline series so far. All of Gas's battles have been fighting for the sake of fighting with barely any pretext or subtext, with the action itself often being devoid of any of the twists and turns you'd get from a Toriyama fight. Gas has nothing to him. The tone deaf glorification of "Saiyan pride" only seems like it's a thing because Toyotaro thought it sounded epic or whatever. There's a number of arguments being made that it's not supposed to be the main thematic thrust of the arc, which I can somewhat agree with, but that's already another concession as to how pointless it is. Personally, I've found myself using the word "pointless" an awful lot over the past half year or so.

Again, hopefully the next arc is better since my continued readership depends on it at this point. I'm just in it to enjoy myself and read Dragon Ball, but from my perspective, I'm doing neither of those things.
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I will also second what EGonzo said and add that for as much as I've regularly criticized the arc, dragging Minus through the mud isn't necessary. Minus fundamentally changed the fanbase's perception of Bardock, but did so in a way I'd argue lends to the themes of the original run more than one might expect and, for me at least, ends up feeling even more integral to Goku's storyline as a result. It's just about a low class warrior taking a chance on his son in spite of the odds.

Whichever anyone prefers, in my view, the Granolah arc's Bardock is to Minus Bardock what Episode of Bardock is to the original special. Two different characters get their own continuation that doesn't gel with things you might appreciate them for initially. Zelvin is spot-on that the more you try to give Bardock any prominence, the less the reader stands to actually gain from his role in the story. That being said, whatever happens shouldn't stop anyone from liking the TV special, Minus/Broly, etc. for what they are, if that's their cup of tea. Things can always still be enjoyed in their own thematic context.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Mon May 23, 2022 11:29 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:05 am I don't necessarily agree with everyone claiming it's more ambitious than Moro, either; while I've said that it definitely was at the beginning, this currently feels more like a generic old Toei movie than anything in the mainline series so far. All of Gas's battles have been fighting for the sake of fighting with barely any pretext or subtext, with the action itself often being devoid of any of the twists and turns you'd get from a Toriyama fight. Gas has nothing to him. The tone deaf glorification of "Saiyan pride" only seems like it's a thing because Toyotaro thought it sounded epic or whatever. There's a number of arguments being made that it's not supposed to be the main thematic thrust of the arc, which I can somewhat agree with, but that's already another concession as to how pointless it is. Personally, I've found myself using the word "pointless" an awful lot over the past half year or so.
Depends on what you mean by "ambitious," I suppose. The scope and scale are smaller, which wasn't what I was expecting at the start, but it's much more willing to play fast and loose with the lore, with characterization, and with new characters taking the fore (give or take Merus' brief fights, which were arc highlights). For however odd I find its overall pacing and structure (on a macro-level, I think the chapters themselves are paced pretty well taken unto themselves; different things, I guess), I'm certainly having more fun with each monthly chunk than I did with Moro, and I think part and parcel of that is that I genuinely haven't had any idea what to expect each chapter, with the sole exception of Gas stepping up as a villain. Nor do I really have any predictions for how it will end, other than Granolah playing a role. In contrast, a lot of the Moro arc felt so familiar, or was so flagrant about being a diversion (goons vs. Earthlings), that it was hard to work up the excitement some months.

It's messy, but I think it's a way more interesting, unpredictable (and fun, most of the time) mess.

My central misgivings with it are its kind of weird macro-structure (feels like it was meant to be all setup then all climax, but the fighting doesn't get frantic enough soon enough to sell that), the clumsy resolution this month of the themes for Goku and Vegeta, and some odd chapter cap choices here and there like the decision to start and end in a flashback last month, but overall I'm having quite a good time.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Mon May 23, 2022 11:43 am

kemuri07 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:16 pm That is not the same as a mystical all powerful Dragon ensuring that you grow up healthy and strong due to a wish.
You guys keep talking about how people need to create headcanons to justify the effects of the wish, but you guys are doing the same thing. Like, the wish is so vague that we can assume a lot of things about its effects.

Was it something that prevented Goku from dying in desperate situations, or was it merely given the necessary conditions (environment) for him to be able to grow positively? And how exactly the latter dismiss any of Goku's achievements, if it's the case? I think assuming that Toronbo closely watched every moment of Goku's life is as silly as people creating headcanon over its effects

You can already draw conclusions about the wish just by the fact that it exists, but the way it affects Goku is by no means definitive

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Mon May 23, 2022 1:00 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:00 am
kemuri07 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:16 pmBut that's not the same though.
Different kinds of plot armor is still plot armor. Not that I ever said they were the same, though.
kemuri07 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:16 pmAnd even then, through out the Harry Potter series, the story found complexity in the "boy who lived" legacy. Sure Potter survived Voldemort's attack, but his parents died, he was forced to live in an abusive household for years, and even when he became a wizard, went through signficant amount of struggle to finally defeat Voldemort.
And even then, throughout the Dragon Ball series, the story "found complexity" in the "destined boy" legacy. Sure, Goku survived Vegeta's destruction, but his mother died (and his dad is... "missing in action" (?)), he was forced to live alone for maybe years, and even when he learned he was a Saiyan, went through a significant amount of struggle to finally defeat Freeza.
kemuri07 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:16 pmThat is not the same as a mystical all powerful Dragon ensuring that you grow up healthy and strong due to a wish.
Like I said, or better yet, like I didn't say, I never said they were the same. But yes, they both had plot armors no matter how you slice it, how you prefer to see it.
I mean that isn't really my point though. All main characters have plot-armor (well most do) because ultimately they have to survive so the story can continue. My point is that Harry Potter's situation and Bardock wishing that his sons do well are two entirely different things that you can't even really compare. Particularly because the Harry Potter books go and explain exactly what the Boy who lived means within the context of the plot. So far in Super, the actual wish and what it entails is super vague and ultimately has no real purpose to the story that its telling beyond invoking "everything happens for a reason". Even if Super comes up with some explanation over how that wish actually works, it doesn't change the fact that its a bad bit of storytelling.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Mon May 23, 2022 1:12 pm

Vegeta himself indicate to us the sole purpose of the wish (if it was granted) when he said Goku and Raditz survived the planet thanks to the wish. There, nothing more to it !
Toyotaro maybe wanted to justify Bardock and Gine not being detected while snatching a pod to send Goku away, so he came up with a wish but needed to find another way to word it since Bardock wasn't supposed to be aware of Frieza's plan yet.
Raditz didn't even grow up strong or thrive, the guy was as strong as humanoid plant Nappa carried in his pocket despite being with them for most of his life :lol: and his companion didn't even plan to resurrect him, unless maybe Bardock was cucked by Gine and Raditz isn't his son...maybe :think: :crazy:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon May 23, 2022 2:15 pm

Jinto wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:12 pm Vegeta himself indicate to us the sole purpose of the wish (if it was granted) when he said Goku and Raditz survived the planet thanks to the wish. There, nothing more to it !
His comment indicated that was a part of the wish, NOT the full extent of it. Remember, Bardock said that he wanted his sons to "grow up well". That goes well beyond just surviving one incident, mate.
Raditz didn't even grow up strong or thrive
He was going to KILL GOKU if not for Gohan's power boost, and Raditz was pretty dang grown up by that point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Mon May 23, 2022 10:09 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:15 pm
Jinto wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:12 pm Vegeta himself indicate to us the sole purpose of the wish (if it was granted) when he said Goku and Raditz survived the planet thanks to the wish. There, nothing more to it !
His comment indicated that was a part of the wish, NOT the full extent of it. Remember, Bardock said that he wanted his sons to "grow up well". That goes well beyond just surviving one incident, mate.
Raditz didn't even grow up strong or thrive
He was going to KILL GOKU if not for Gohan's power boost, and Raditz was pretty dang grown up by that point.
That doesn't mean he was strong, "grow up strong" would be relative to the surrounding (like Goku) and yet he was definitely some of the weakest shit out there (as weak as some back pocket grunt). He grew up within the Frieza army, if the wish was really intended to make them "strong", he should have been stronger than Frieza by then.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Tue May 24, 2022 1:29 am

Growing up strong could very well mean that the survival of Planet Vegeta led to both Goku and Raditz growing up as healthy adults. I believe Vegeta's statement provides clarity as to what the wish was referring to. I still sympathize with many of the people's complaints on this because it was never really well articulated, seemed out-of-place for Bardock to make in an intense battle of all else, and it's largely unnecessary. A significant part of Bardock's character, which remained consistent in the DBS Broly movie, was Bardock's intuition and his own suspicions clueing him in as to what Frieza was up to. That made Bardock's encounter with Frieza significant and personal as Bardock sent his own son away not only to save him but to avenge the Saiyans for what Frieza had done. Goku's departure being a result of the wish Bardock makes renders that point moot as Bardock rescuing his son was chalked up to destiny rather than something that harbored personal feelings from Bardock.

I do think this is just an argument of semantics because Vegeta's statement is Toyotaro's way of making it clear as to what the wish was referring to. It's understandable that Bardock wouldn't wish for his sons leaving Planet Vegeta because that's not something he obviously would have considered at this point. But, Toyotaro is still at fault for making it ambiguous.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue May 24, 2022 7:30 am

I really wish that the next arc will somehow connect to this one... like Elec having some grander plans than just being an asshole with intel, who is exploiting his naive and stupid brother (and probably rest of his family).

Because if not, I am afraid that the next arc will be "after some time of piece, like days, because there is this Budokai happening"
a new foe emerges and Goku still perfects ultra instict and Vegeta destruction and fight ensues.

Would be nice to have some sense of urgency... at least Moro had that, because he threatened to devour the universe if not stopped.
Tournament of Power had time limit and risk of being KOed, Zamasu wanted to destroy all sentient life and control the whole universe as a god. Here we have pretty much nothing.

I agree about the Saiyan pride statements... Vegeta was always gloating about it and in Buu arc, aknowledged that Goku is a real Saiyan actually. Now they realized that Bardock showed them what Saiyan pride is, to never give up against an opponent? But they already FOUND IT during the fight with Buu and Vegeta was always like that!

Jeeez... I really don't enjoy this arc from the start, when Granolah was obnoxious about his misguided revenge.
But still, personally, I liked the Bardock flashback and also believe that everyone is giving the dragon wish too much meaning.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Tue May 24, 2022 10:56 am

Goku9001 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 1:29 am But, Toyotaro is still at fault for making it ambiguous.
"Fault" is a weird choice here since ambiguity is not really a problem. Just because there's fan confusion and overreaction doesn't mean the plot device is bad, it just means there's a lot of people who are uncomfortable with it!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 24, 2022 10:57 am

The wish is unnnecessary, there's no debate about it, just like the extra N I added. But is anybody thinking the wish was meant to cover Goku's entire childhood like some kind of guardian angel? it's vague as fuck, and semantics - in more than one language- plays a big role in it, too. That's too big of a change to conveyed in such an ambiguous way.

Occam's razor implies it was just to have them survive whatever was going to happen to the saiyans, so finding a way off the planet and not landing on fucking Vampa or captured by Freeza. One ended up being part of the prince's entourage and the other guy landed on fodder planet and adopted by a good guy. The perfect destiny for them to thrive, Raditz tagging along Freeza's protegee, and Goku in a power level kindergarten, surrounded by nice people. With such different upbringings, I wouldn't dare to say the wish was still working.

Strenght wasn't a factor either, Goku was 20 years old and not even at 500PL, and Raditz was older and comparable to a saibaimen. For saiyan standards, the wish really screwed Bardock over if it was meant to be about power.

People read way too much into these kinda things.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue May 24, 2022 12:28 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:00 pmI mean that isn't really my point though. All main characters have plot-armor (well most do) because ultimately they have to survive so the story can continue. My point is that Harry Potter's situation and Bardock wishing that his sons do well are two entirely different things that you can't even really compare. Particularly because the Harry Potter books go and explain exactly what the Boy who lived means within the context of the plot. So far in Super, the actual wish and what it entails is super vague and ultimately has no real purpose to the story that its telling beyond invoking "everything happens for a reason". Even if Super comes up with some explanation over how that wish actually works, it doesn't change the fact that its a bad bit of storytelling.
The wish entailed Goku as a baby, as a kid and as a teenager with a protection. He survived a lot of events because of that. There's nothing vague about it (to me, anyway), Bardock was pretty clear "I want my boys to grow up well". "Grow up" means going from babyhood to adulthood. Since Bardock's wish was spoken before a wishing-dragon, that wish became something real/literal, and so the dragon will ensure the boys grow up/reach adulthood well, which translates to a shield/protection during their growth.

Yes, we can certainly compare those characters, even if it's just on a "surface level", there are similarities, just as there are similarities with Superman. Unless you want something specific tied to the current events/present. I think this saga will end without making any sort of connection, which would mean the wish was just a revelation (to the audience) that Goku lived his part of his life under the protection of his father('s wish). I'm not looking for a deeper meaning or a full-blown context, so there's that. If we get that, then maybe great, but I have a feeling the context of the wish will be just that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed May 25, 2022 3:17 am

capsulecorp wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:56 am
Goku9001 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 1:29 am But, Toyotaro is still at fault for making it ambiguous.
"Fault" is a weird choice here since ambiguity is not really a problem. Just because there's fan confusion and overreaction doesn't mean the plot device is bad, it just means there's a lot of people who are uncomfortable with it!
If many fans are conflicted by the wish because Toyotaro didn't clarify it which meant that possible interpretations can have certain ramifications on the story, then I would say it is certainly Toyotaro's fault.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ten na nGael » Wed May 25, 2022 5:33 am

I liked the panel with Gine holding Raditz's hand, it's the first proper image of him as a member of the family. The rest of the chapter was a bit of a standard fight I wasn't too interested in.

For the arc in general:

Regarding Bardock, it's a bit hard to know what to say. I do prefer the original portrayal from the anime special. However that special is more "serious" or dramatic than something Toriyama would write, as he himself has said. So although I like the Minus Bardock less, it does feel more like something native to Dragonball. Even the way the Saiyans themselves are portrayed on Planet Vegeta diverges quite a bit. In the anime special they live in a sort of sterile technological society with an Akira aesthetic, with other aliens on their world and no real sense of a society. Where as the Minus version gives them a communal society that feels a bit pre-industrial despite having growth tanks.

So I'm basically just happy to see either and I don't mind the whole "adventures of Bardock" stuff we've been getting. The Minus Bardock is more in line with the "oh you cheeky rogue" modern Dragonball take on enemies than the genuinely amoral Special Bardock, so I think the wish makes sense as something for him to say. I agree it messes with previous themes too much, but Dragonball never overly developed its themes, so it isn't a huge negative for me.

The biggest problems with the arc are:
  1. The fight with Gas is far too long for somebody who is a generic sub-Garlic Jr bad guy.
  2. The Heaters are also generic Toei movie style enemies. They're very like the space pirates from Movie 9. They're missing the weirdness you'd expect from a Dragonball villian.
  3. Nobody looks powerful enough. In the Moro arc, for all its other faults, at least Goku did things that looked god-like. This fight doesn't look much beyond an early Freeza saga fight. I usually don't mind this, but I feel there should be an extra "umph" to fights at the pinnacle of non-Angel beings. This even effects things I like. I mean the whole train tossing sequence was well drawn and executed with good humour. At the same time though these are god-like beings, getting hit by trains feels too low key.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Wed May 25, 2022 1:13 pm

Ten na nGael wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:33 am The biggest problems with the arc are:
  1. The fight with Gas is far too long for somebody who is a generic sub-Garlic Jr bad guy.
  2. The Heaters are also generic Toei movie style enemies. They're very like the space pirates from Movie 9. They're missing the weirdness you'd expect from a Dragonball villian.
  3. Nobody looks powerful enough. In the Moro arc, for all its other faults, at least Goku did things that looked god-like. This fight doesn't look much beyond an early Freeza saga fight. I usually don't mind this, but I feel there should be an extra "umph" to fights at the pinnacle of non-Angel beings. This even effects things I like. I mean the whole train tossing sequence was well drawn and executed with good humour. At the same time though these are god-like beings, getting hit by trains feels too low key.
Welcome! I like the Bardock analysis.

Re: the list:

1. Not sure what you mean by sub-Garlic Junior. Less interesting than Garlic Jr.? Relative to other DBZ movie villains, I think Garlic Jr. is one of the most interesting...

2. In what ways are Heata similar to Toei villains? They seem to be one of the most significant Toriyama contributions to the arc. Tonally, I don't think they're far off from some of the RR characters. Maki and Oil are pretty silly, and even Gas pissed his pants. Unless you're only referring to their appearances, which do resemble Bojack and co., but those guys were designed by Toriyama. At the very least, their hair is unique among DB character designs.

3. Not long ago, Goku and Gas were teleporting across the universe and then Gas flew across it in record time. I guess they haven't completely destroyed Cereal, but the characters have taken a beating that feels escalated. Goku took a titanic hit from Granolah early on, Vegeta has been covered in blood this whole arc, and Granolah had his eyes and back blown out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ten na nGael » Thu May 26, 2022 7:40 am

batistabus wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:13 pm 1. Not sure what you mean by sub-Garlic Junior. Less interesting than Garlic Jr.? Relative to other DBZ movie villains, I think Garlic Jr. is one of the most interesting...

2. In what ways are Heata similar to Toei villains? They seem to be one of the most significant Toriyama contributions to the arc. Tonally, I don't think they're far off from some of the RR characters. Maki and Oil are pretty silly, and even Gas pissed his pants. Unless you're only referring to their appearances, which do resemble Bojack and co., but those guys were designed by Toriyama. At the very least, their hair is unique among DB character designs.
Basically just that they seem very generic to me with nothing particularly interesting about their characterisation. Not that they were originally, if Elec's information broker aspect is played up a bit more later I might become interested again. That was a kind of interesting tie into the world. However for the last few chapters they've been fairly generic cartoon/anime bad guys to me.
Again might change if Elec is doing something interesting behind the scenes in some way, e.g. the content of the wish for Gas to be strongest.

The biggest part however is that Gas is not interesting enough in and of himself to sustain a fight this long. Overall though I do like the arc.
batistabus wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:13 pm 3. Not long ago, Goku and Gas were teleporting across the universe and then Gas flew across it in record time. I guess they haven't completely destroyed Cereal, but the characters have taken a beating that feels escalated. Goku took a titanic hit from Granolah early on, Vegeta has been covered in blood this whole arc, and Granolah had his eyes and back blown out.
Most of the fight doesn't really seem much beyond something that would occur in the early Freeza saga, even though there are some feats on a very high level. The choreography of the Vegeta vs Granolah was quite good and the teleporting bit you mention was cool but at this point for me I'd want to see something more in terms of their fights given the scale of their strength and speed and most of the fight is very low key in terms of scale.

For example if Gas can move across the universe that fast, his movements during fights should be doing something extreme to the environment around him. It just takes away from the physicality of the fight for me, but this won't be important to everyone. I will say it's not solely a problem with this arc. Even parts of Z I had this problem with.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu May 26, 2022 12:34 pm

Ten na nGael wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:40 am Most of the fight doesn't really seem much beyond something that would occur in the early Freeza saga, even though there are some feats on a very high level. The choreography of the Vegeta vs Granolah was quite good and the teleporting bit you mention was cool but at this point for me I'd want to see something more in terms of their fights given the scale of their strength and speed and most of the fight is very low key in terms of scale.

For example if Gas can move across the universe that fast, his movements during fights should be doing something extreme to the environment around him. It just takes away from the physicality of the fight for me, but this won't be important to everyone. I will say it's not solely a problem with this arc. Even parts of Z I had this problem with.
I think I pretty much agree. I think the fights in Super rarely exceed the scale of the Boo arc (characters flying around the planet in an instant, screaming through dimensions, killing everyone on the planet at once, etc.). There are a few exceptions like Beerus vs Champa, DBS Broly, and some stuff from the last two arcs. Other than that, you're right that - to some extent - we have to just assume these fights are at a higher scale because we're told the characters are powerful.

I think back to Goku's training with Popo where he is taught to avoid wasted movements. Since that philosophy jives with Migatte no Gokui, I wouldn't necessarily expect environmental destruction from simple movement. Even Beerus didn't really tear things up against God Goku, so maybe that justifies it in (Wagamama no Gokui) Vegeta's case, although that was a special circumstance coming off of the real life earthquake in Japan. And although Granolah and Gas didn't earn their #1 in the Universe spots, they are serious martial artists, and they're certainly not raging berserkers like Broly (who did tear things up)...except for Gas' unleashed instinct form (which does make a mess).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu May 26, 2022 3:55 pm

Ten na nGael wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:33 am [*] The Heaters are also generic Toei movie style enemies. They're very like the space pirates from Movie 9. They're missing the weirdness you'd expect from a Dragonball villian.
The Heeters are a mixed bag for me at the moment. When they were first announced, everyone thought they would be a discounted Bojack gang and in the early sections of the arc they proved to be a very interesting group (that didn't focused solely on strength) with fun dynamics. My problem with them now is that while I still find their dynamics fun, most of them aren't really being developed.

Elec is the most interesting of the bunch, largely because of the mysterious nature of his plans and the fact that he doesn't fall into the category of a power-seeking villain.

Macki has charm as a character (her moment with Chi-Chi in the beginning and later with Goku and Vegeta in the space ship, with her playing the good girl role were pretty cool), but she hasn't been doing much overall.

Oil is kinda...there, I guess? He makes some jokes but that's it, I'm indifferent about him

And to be honest I think Gas has potential and there are some aspects of him that can be explored. His blind devotion to Elec, what he went through after being defeated by Bardock (Elec losing trust in him and that's why he hired Granolah), and the fact that he's different from the other villains in the sense that he's basically a loser who tries too hard to look intimidating (as we saw in the galactic prison scene) because that's what Elec and his brothers expect of him, and he needs to play that role as the muscle of the group. He needs to live up to those expectations. But, unfortunately, as things stand, he hasn't been very interesting.

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