Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu May 19, 2022 11:23 am

Took a long time to get there, and I can't say I enjoyed the journey to getting there, but at least we're finally there. I know I and at least Mr Baggins correctly identified the theme like 8 months ago, so it's insane that after all this meandering he's finally decided it's time to confirm it.

Then 80% of the chapter was another pointless fight scene.

Less bad than last month's; still bad. Did not enjoy.

And now we have hard confirmation that instead of dumb luck, it was Bardock's love for his boys that made them survive Frieza's genocide. Yuck.
But if I was to draw conclusions, then there’s a strong dissonance between the arc saying to not obsess about the past, and then this ENTIRE chapter being about the past. The metatext is at odds there.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu May 19, 2022 11:39 am

The theme is easy enough to identify. It's how this theme is conveyed that's bad.

What a substandard nothing this chapter is. Its whole thrust really is "bardock was the coolest guy" and "saiyans r 2 kewl" and Goku and Vegeta totally should feel proud of their Cerealian-exterminating race that Monaito, their victim, is giving hamfisted speeches about while handing out Saiyan armor that appears for all of two panels just in case you missed its tone deaf "subtext". Holy shit, this is so far beyond hackneyed. The original manga is a series about self-growth and being your own person; it took every opportunity it could to dismiss the idea of glorifying not only the Saiyans, but collectivism in general. Goku constantly rebuked his people and wanted nothing to do with them, and Vegeta's whole throughline was rising above them.

There is nothing uncommercial about any of this. It's typical fan oriented un-DB. Even if we interpret that scene as charitably as possible and pretend Saiyan Pride™ isn't part of the equation or Toyotaro is just shit at phrasing, we still run into problems:

If it's Goku accepting his "nature" as a person, that's ridiculous because Goku knows who he is. If "nature" means accepting his heritage, that's redundant because he's done that. What does this add? What is the point?

If it's Vegeta learning to accept who he is without berating himself over what his race did, fine, but so what? Then he's just back to pre-Moro Vegeta, and it only ever happened because he heard Bardock's COOLEST GUY speech. What is the fucking point?

The answer, of course, is nothing, but again, even that best case scenario isn't more than an overly charitable takeaway that ignores what they're saying. Because what they're actually saying is nonsense. If people thought the arc's pacing and characterization sucked, they can add "themes" to the list now too.

Apart from that, there's little else to discuss because we're still in our usual routine where nothing happens other than the same bland fight scenes that recycle the same gimmicks and beats: Gas sandbagging for no reason as usual, Gas summoning the same weapons again, Elec explaining why Gas is stronger than Granolah again (really???), Vegeta regurgitating the same lines about his Hakai ball, Vegeta explaining how UE works again, etcetera. These sequences are by now so inanely repetitive, rote, predictable and uninteresting that I can't even feel excited about Goku and Vegeta teaming up in their ultra forms because there's nothing substantive to chew on. While some of that probably has to do with the non-character they're still fighting, at this point it's mainly an issue of DB being reduced to what is, at least in my view, its lowest form of appeal. Once again, mutual exclusivity between action and storytelling isn't what Toriyama's Dragon Ball is, but it sure as hell doesn't seem like the current writer understands that anymore.

Put this dying, bloated arc out of its misery already.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Thu May 19, 2022 11:53 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:39 am The theme is easy enough to identify. It's how this theme is conveyed that's bad.

What a substandard nothing this chapter is. Its whole thrust really is "bardock was the coolest guy" and "saiyans r 2 kewl" and Goku and Vegeta totally should feel proud of their Cerealian-exterminating race that Monaito, their victim, is giving hamfisted speeches about while handing out Saiyan armor that appears for all of two panels just in case you missed its tone deaf "subtext". Holy shit, this is so far beyond hackneyed. The original manga is a series about self-growth and being your own person; it took every opportunity it could to dismiss the idea of glorifying not only the Saiyans, but collectivism in general. Goku constantly rebuked his people and wanted nothing to do with them, and Vegeta's whole throughline was rising above them.

There is nothing uncommercial about any of this. It's typical fan oriented un-DB. Even if we interpret that scene as charitably as possible and pretend Saiyan Pride™ isn't part of the equation or Toyotaro is just shit at phrasing, we still run into problems:

If it's Goku accepting his "nature" as a person, that's ridiculous because Goku knows who he is. If "nature" means accepting his heritage, that's redundant because he's done that. What does this add? What is the point?

If it's Vegeta learning to accept who he is without berating himself over what his race did, fine, but so what? Then he's just back to pre-Moro Vegeta, and it only ever happened because he heard Bardock's COOLEST GUY speech. What is the fucking point?

The answer, of course, is nothing, but again, even that best case scenario isn't more than an overly charitable takeaway that ignores what they're saying. Because what they're actually saying is nonsense. If people thought the arc's pacing and characterization sucked, they can add "themes" to the list now too.

Apart from that, there's little else to discuss because we're still in our usual routine where nothing happens other than the same bland fight scenes that recycle the same gimmicks and beats: Gas sandbagging for no reason as usual, Gas summoning the same weapons again, Elec explaining why Gas is stronger than Granolah again (really???), Vegeta regurgitating the same lines about his Hakai ball, Vegeta explaining how UE works again, etcetera. These sequences are by now so inanely repetitive, rote, predictable and uninteresting that I can't even feel excited about Goku and Vegeta teaming up in their ultra forms because there's nothing substantive to chew on. While some of that probably has to do with the non-character they're still fighting, at this point it's mainly an issue of DB being reduced to what is, at least in my view, its lowest form of appeal. Once again, mutual exclusivity between action and storytelling isn't what Toriyama's Dragon Ball is, but it sure as hell doesn't seem like the current writer understands that anymore.

Put this dying, bloated arc out of its misery already.
You will get 5 more months of this and like it!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu May 19, 2022 12:03 pm

It’s morbidly hilarious that Toyotaro took a story that was built on Nurture beating Nature and turned it into Nature beating Nurture. Everything Goku is now is owed to Bardock, a character we the audience have no reason to care about other than the fact that he is Goku’s father. Goku’s father who wasn’t introduced into the story proper until 25 or so years after it ended.

If the Ultra Instinct sequence from the tournament of power, where all of Goku’s masters’ lessons help him achieve the form, is the strongest argument for why being a fan is good for writing a work, then this entire arc is the counterpoint.

Moro was a nothing arc. This arc actively hurts everything in the series.

But what’s more damning is this just doesn’t have Dragonball’s charm. Goku surviving a genocide because his race thought he was shit and sent him off to a shit planet is darkly funny. They got theirs for being all high and mighty. This isn’t funny. It’s just the kind of thing you see from any generic series, where the main character is of special lineage with a really cool father with really cool powers, or whatever. Dragonball should be setting trends, not following them.

Just hackneyed all around. Especially with all the buildup to the characters explaining the blatantly obvious themes. If you’re gonna do something like that, it needs to be a twist, otherwise you’re just stating the obvious.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Thu May 19, 2022 12:11 pm

I guess this arc will end with Vegeta and Goku fusing into Gogeta to beat Gas, and Gogeta uses some unholy fusion of Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego which makes him THE STRONGEST WARRIOR IN THE UNIVERSE...for five minutes.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Thu May 19, 2022 12:35 pm

Ultra Instinct didn't felt like Ultra Instinct to me. I'm just not used to the white-haired Goku showing all these emotions, as if he was still fighting in base. I thought the form was supposed to be calm and collected but now it's just.. a literal recolor.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu May 19, 2022 12:48 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:20 am
Okay this is probably one of my favourite panels from the Super manga. I love that they brought back Vegeta’s Buu arc clothes. Ultra Ego looks a lot nicer without the armour. It also feels appropriate without armour since Vegeta intentionally takes damage when he’s in the form.
I also like Vegeta back in his Buu arc clothes. He's wearing those in Super Hero so it could be to connect them. It feels that the story is sort of coming full series and almost done completing this review or homage of the various lessons the characters have learned throughout the series. Well it's a nice way of saying they're done recycling character arcs :P. I hope the ending of this arc is good and still forward to seeing when the next one takes place.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu May 19, 2022 1:19 pm

It's a testament to how bad this manga is when the pinnacle of a cool moment: Goku and Vegeta, fighting together, in their mastered Godly forms is a big meh.

Fuck Gas, with his shitty design, shitty personality and shitty story. Fuck Granolah. Fuck this arc. Some lame, generic ass dudes wishing on the asspull random-as-fuck Dragon Balls to be the strongest and we're supposed to be hyped when Toyotaro's lame OC-do-not-steal characters throw around main characters we've loved for decades.

And make sure to assassinate their character too, with the shitty wish washy Bardock wish.

I wonder what the next arc will be at this rate, a literal piece of shit slapping Beerus around because it was Tuesday and Beerus' dad only wished for Beerus to be strong on weekends? Stay tuned!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Thu May 19, 2022 1:21 pm

I am so terribly miffed at Bardock's wish that I couldn't enjoy this chapter much. Normally I would enjoy a fight scene like that, but DANG did that bad apple spoil the bunch! It could have been easily excluded entirely and no major damage would have been done to DB's lore, but nope, we are now in cliche territory.
Xeogran wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:35 pm Ultra Instinct didn't felt like Ultra Instinct to me. I'm just not used to the white-haired Goku showing all these emotions, as if he was still fighting in base. I thought the form was supposed to be calm and collected but now it's just.. a literal recolor.
This was also a major factor for my disappointment. Like, I remember the Moro arc's final battle had Goku make a few expressions in UI, but this is way too much.

Dang it Toyotarou, dang it...
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu May 19, 2022 1:22 pm

sigh.

I think the frustrating thing about this chapter (and Super in general) is that there is some cool stuff here: the art and battle choreography is still good, and there's little character moments that are fun. I always love it when Goku and Vegeta decide to go at it together and the Kamehameha/Galick Gun combo was cool.

The problem, however, still remains the story. And the fact that we finally got to the main thesis of the arc, and its so goddamn underwhelming. Like seriously, you watched an audio clip from your dad and suddenly "you understand Saiyan pride?" It's so undercooked and does nothing for Goku and Vegeta, so while there's some cool moments of their battle with Gas--it's just another Battle. Goku does not change at all and fights the same way he's pretty much always have. There's no tension, there's nothing like an emotional resolution like we're seeing a transformation in any of these characters. It's just another fight.

I think the problem here is that Super is engaging in subtext that requires a lot more introspection and subtlety to really work. I think having Vegeta have doubts and concerns about his past as a brutal Saiyan warrior is a solid charcter arc and pairing that with Granollah's desire for revenge for the saiyan race is rife with drama. It's a good conflict. But then the manga does nothing with that instead allowing Bardock's nonsense to completely hijack the entirety of the arc, present the absurd possibility that a dragonball wish saved Goku, and that all of this is wrapped up cause Bardock does a dumb power-up. Like that's it. It is mindnumbing how bad this is. Nothing changes, so it feels like reading this arc chapter by chapter for about year, has been pointless.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu May 19, 2022 1:25 pm

A lot of complaining from people who will continue to read and discuss the manga for years to come lol.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu May 19, 2022 1:28 pm

TKA wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:03 pm It’s morbidly hilarious that Toyotaro took a story that was built on Nurture beating Nature and turned it into Nature beating Nurture. Everything Goku is now is owed to Bardock, a character we the audience have no reason to care about other than the fact that he is Goku’s father. Goku’s father who wasn’t introduced into the story proper until 25 or so years after it ended.

If the Ultra Instinct sequence from the tournament of power, where all of Goku’s masters’ lessons help him achieve the form, is the strongest argument for why being a fan is good for writing a work, then this entire arc is the counterpoint.

Moro was a nothing arc. This arc actively hurts everything in the series.

But what’s more damning is this just doesn’t have Dragonball’s charm. Goku surviving a genocide because his race thought he was shit and sent him off to a shit planet is darkly funny. They got theirs for being all high and mighty. This isn’t funny. It’s just the kind of thing you see from any generic series, where the main character is of special lineage with a really cool father with really cool powers, or whatever. Dragonball should be setting trends, not following them.

Just hackneyed all around. Especially with all the buildup to the characters explaining the blatantly obvious themes. If you’re gonna do something like that, it needs to be a twist, otherwise you’re just stating the obvious.
Absolutely agreed. I think this is something people are going to argue about how this went to shit so fucking bad. I know people are going to solely old Toyotaro as responsible, but I think Toriyama definitely has to shoulder some of that blame. Considering he's co-authoring this with Toyotaro, II don't think he gets to walk away from this. The man has nothing to prove and he will always be the genius who made DragonBall and Dragonball Z, but he's shown that he's capable of bad ideas, so he's not infallible.

It's so abrupt to how this arc went from being promising to being a shit show that I have to believe that there was meddling involved. Is this arc really the best they could have come up with?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Thu May 19, 2022 1:30 pm

Bardock's popularity amongst the Japanese fanbase is probably what drove Toyotaro to foist him into the present day narrative. Somehow he needed to be injected with material relevancy beyond just displaying the colours of the species whom Granolah hated for the death of his people. Unfortunately it's come at the expense of retroactively defaulting on the serendipitous nature of how Goku grew into the person he is today and replacing it with a backstory that feels much more plastic and uninspiring than what we knew before. Goku has been predestined for certain special events before like with what Baba described at the end of her gauntlet tournament event? Well in that situation it would be more accurate to describe her forecast as being what she perceives to be coming down the pipe naturally instead of a mystical convergence brought on by the machinations of a man directly related to Goku.

Others already gave an apt analysis of the homily Monaito gave about the nature of one's pride in their species. How does he think Vegeta got to where he was today or what motivated him to devise the strategy against Buu that enabled humanity to be resurrected? His actions there weren't brought on by just some epiphany of the affection he has for his newfound family but also a desire to repent for the lives he took, both directly and indirectly in allowing Buu to be released. The Saiyans were an inherently barbaric group whose sole aim was to fight and pillage for their personal benefit; for the character pair to accept such base sentiments would run counter intuitively to the lives they've made for themselves on Earth. Not to say that Saiyans are incapable of being good people it's just that they seemed to be the outlier instead of the norm. Also, about the pursuance of vengeance not being what defines pride what's the assessment of Vegeta's tearful plea to Goku on Namek that Freeza must be defeated by a Saiyan? Monaito obviously wouldn't know of these past events but what's been established prior during the original Dragon Ball's run seems to contradict or at least complicate the lessons being imparted now.

At the end of it when the fighting is underway once again my thoughts aren't about the impressiveness of the choreography but how Goku intends to compensate for Vegeta's Ultra Ego perk of continuously growing more powerful and what Gas can do to combat that. The Heeter doesn't have the luxury of being able to rely on his magically prescribed static power to keep Vegeta down and out. If I were him I would be aiming for fatal shots. If you have to make him bleed from the head or something. I assume losing too much blood is still a vulnerability for the Saiyan Prince.
Last edited by Lionel on Thu May 19, 2022 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu May 19, 2022 1:31 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:25 pm A lot of complaining from people who will continue to read and discuss the manga for years to come lol.
Considering I'm not paying for it, why not? If this were any other manga I'd drop it. But because this is a Dragon Ball manga, one that considers it a direct sequel to one of my favorite anime of all time, i don''t have an issue with reading it. But more importantly, I like coming on here and discussing these chapters with people. That's the whole point of this community.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 19, 2022 1:31 pm

Didn't do much for me, this chapter. It felt shorter than the others.

I still can't believe back in december they said we were on the climax of the arc. This arc has at least 4 more chapters... we were at the climax of the arc by the middle of it, lol.

Goku and Vegeta teaming up isn't new, but seeing them in their top forms is kinda cool. Only seen on fanart, not even on SDBH. I always thought Beerus would be on the other side against those two at full force, not Gas. But still isn't anything to write home about. It's also kinda odd to see UI struggle so much, I guess Goku's power boost has yet to come. I really hope Gogeta is not part of this arc, only Slug would be left to appear. And remember Freeza? damn, he is just sipping gin n juice at home, not knowing what's going on.
I cannot celebrate enough Geets' Buu arc outfit. Thank kami, I was so sick of the android arc armor.

About the wish, meh. It's vague enough to be whatever you want it to be. It lasted until the brothers met, it lasted until they safely got off Vegeta-sei. And we've known Goku survived Freeza's attack due to his father's love for years now, it was not revealed in 2022.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Thu May 19, 2022 1:39 pm

Goodness gracious ! Another gorgeous chapter, Toyotaro upped his game with those perspective shots, choreography, just BEAUTIFUL :) and unlike the summary suggested, Goku and Vegeta are doing quite good against Gas, MUI isn't even close to being serious, only ultra ego need some power boost which it will get next chapter (hopefully).
The moral lesson at the beginning could've been more subtle but hey ! at least they were self aware about it :D
It feels like Vegeta is set up to be the strongest :think:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu May 19, 2022 1:39 pm

Others already gave an apt analysis of the homily Monaito gave about the nature of one's pride in their species. How does he think Vegeta got to where he was today or what motivated him to devise the strategy against Buu that enabled humanity to be resurrected? His actions there weren't brought on by just some epiphany of the affection he has for his newfound family but also a desire to repent for the lives he took, both directly and indirectly in allowing Buu to be released. The Saiyans were an inherently barbaric group whose sole aim was to fight and pillage for their personal benefit; for the character pair to accept such base sentiments would run counter intuitively to lives they've made for themselves on Earth. Not to say that Saiyans are incapable of being good people it's just that they seemed to be the outlier instead of the norm. Also, about the pursuance of vengeance not being what defines pride what's assessment of Vegeta's tearful plea to Goku on Namek that Freeza must be defeated by a Saiyan? Monaito obviously wouldn't know of these past events but what's been established prior during the original Dragon Ball's run seems to contradict or at least complicate the lessons being imparted now.
It only makes sense if you considered that this series went out of its way to soften the Saiyans. Considering the fact that DBZ described them as ruthless, genocidal, capitalist, burning everything they came across, the idea that Vegeta's personal dilemma gets resolved with "I gotta have Saiyan pride" is....yeah.

I think there's a stronger, smarter version of this arc in which a troubled Vegeta manages to accept the flaws of his heritage, and come out stronger for that could have made this work. But this arc doesn't devote enough time to it, so its just resolved with Vegeta basically shouting out his character arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Thu May 19, 2022 1:51 pm

Everything pre battle was meh. The whole pride thing felt weak. Glimpses of father's existence brings sudden understanding and feeling of pride in race? Wanting to win helps you win? And such vague things are the main motivators now? At this stage of the storyline? The battle looked nice and cool, but felt same old same old.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Thu May 19, 2022 1:56 pm

Cool to see Toyotaro doing more double page spreads lately.

The old armors were fun for some quick fanservice, but it's dope Goku/Vegeta rather to fight in their normal clothes. I like how Vegeta has been using his Buu arc outfit more since DBS Broly.

Goku and Vegeta finally unlocking different forms from each other was the best thing DBS did for their rivalry. Hopefully there's no fusion.

As for the wish, I will wait for the arc to be over to be sure it has done. I find it strange that we didn't see Monaito stating it. We also don't know what exactly Elec wished for Gas. Maybe twists are coming, maybe not. I don't like it but regardless, wishing for Goku/Raditz to grow up well is different than wish for them to be immortal until they grow up...

I saw someone on twitter saying the wish was the reason why Universe 7 won the ToP... The way this fanbase blows things out of proportion is unmatched. :lol:

I really liked this scene:
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu May 19, 2022 2:50 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:25 pm A lot of complaining from people who will continue to read and discuss the manga for years to come lol.
What a dumb argument and a pointless thing to post. This adds nothing to the discussion and is needlessly dismissive.

People post critiques because they care about the story and would like to see the story fix these supposed failures. That’s how artistic analysis works.
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