Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri May 13, 2022 1:44 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:45 am The fact that people are less concerned with Bardock's gesture and more concerned with how that how this affects the sacred canon of DB lore probably speaks to something. The apparent wish does not diminish Goku's struggles, hard work, or any part of his journey. Goku deserved to live on from his dangerous moments regardless of the Dragon Balls. Living was the bare minimum, and his Goku Way continued after the wish seems to have worn off.
Cipher wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:30 am but there were also probably less divisive ways to achieve the same effect.
I think controversial DB is best DB. We know it's done on purpose, and it's part of what gives the series its edge. In this particular case, it is even acknowledged by Vegeta taking the voice of the audience.
I have a question for you, if you don't mind me asking. Has there ever been anything shown in this manga that you ever had a problem with? I'm curious cause I never see you criticize anything.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri May 13, 2022 2:07 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:45 am The fact that people are less concerned with Bardock's gesture and more concerned with how that how this affects the sacred canon of DB lore probably speaks to something. The apparent wish does not diminish Goku's struggles, hard work, or any part of his journey. Goku deserved to live on from his dangerous moments regardless of the Dragon Balls. Living was the bare minimum, and his Goku Way continued after the wish seems to have worn off.
Firstly, who mentioned the word "canon" here?
Secondly, it could take away from Goku's achievements, at least to some extent. If this wish does actually entail protection from enemies or other forces, then it means that Goku did not advance purely by his own doing, but by his father's wish. I rather have it be Goku's own work.
Thirdly, what purpose does this wish serve for the events of the present? It definitely affects the past, but how does it add anything to the character arcs of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, etc?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri May 13, 2022 2:27 pm

To me this revelation would take away stuff from Superboy, but couldn't this be a red herring? I'm not much of a draft lover, but isn't, usually, whatever is implied there, not exactly true when the chapter is released?

I can't pull up an actual example, but I could swear people tend to go nuts thinking, I dunno, Bardock fucked Granny's mother, based on the drafts or leaks, to learn later that they were purposely misled? I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out there wasn't a wish made for Kal-elrotto.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri May 13, 2022 2:32 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:27 pm To me this revelation would take away stuff from Superboy, but couldn't this be a red herring? I'm not much of a draft lover, but isn't, usually, whatever is implied there, not exactly true when the chapter is released?

I can't pull up an actual example, but I could swear people tend to go nuts thinking, I dunno, Bardock fucked Granny's mother, based on the drafts or leaks, to learn later that they were purposely misled? I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out there wasn't a wish made for Kal-elrotto.
This is exactly what I am hoping for. While I am very worried about the implications of these drafts, I have not forgotten all the times fans went bananas at drafts for what was later revealed as a faulty reason.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri May 13, 2022 2:53 pm

DestructoDisc wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:44 pm I have a question for you, if you don't mind me asking. Has there ever been anything shown in this manga that you ever had a problem with? I'm curious cause I never see you criticize anything.
I'll answer. Perhaps the implication is that I am a blind fanboy who is incapable of seeing anything wrong with the manga? The reasons I don't often discuss my dislikes is because 1) I'm here to discuss something I like with other fans and I want to keep things positive (there's enough negativity as is) and 2) most of these issues are inherent to the product. Anyway, here's a list of some of the things I don't like about the DBS manga. Hopefully this doesn't derail the thread too much:

-It's not drawn by Toriyama. Toriyama doesn't write the dialogue. I think Toyotaro has done a good job, and is a better candidate than the fan-offered alternatives, but I'm interested in Dragon Ball because it comes from Toriyama's mind. At the end of the day, Toriyama is a genius and Toyotaro is not (although he has talent, is extremely dedicated, and is constantly improving).

-I don't like the way Toyotaro draws Goku's hair in base form. It's too small and droopy, especially the back part. The result is a weaker silhouette than Toriyama's Goku. This may seem like a nitpick but I think it's pretty important since it's part of what makes Goku so visually distinct.

-The Moro arc, which we can largely attribute to Toyotaro (much more than the previous arcs and confidently more than this arc), was far too safe. Crazy things should be happening constantly in DB. Very little should be sacred. It had some of that, but not enough relative to the page count. This is largely due to external constraints on Toyotaro (not being the original author, trying not to let down fans, working within a story between existing story), but the other Super arcs weren't as guilty of this.

-While I don't think the pacing is terrible, it's drastically slower than any of Toriyama's works. The original manga had you laughing, in shock, or pumped up on just about every page. I don't hate the slow-burn approach, but it's distinctly different from the original series, and in my view, less entertaining. This is probably due in part to the monthly format and other V-Jump-related guidelines.

-The dialogue maybe? It's hard to say what's a Toyotaro difference and what's a Viz translation thing. While I think the characterization is fairly good, there are certain characters I think could use improvement (Jaco and Gohan come to mind). On a similar note, Toriyama's comedic timing is much more effective.

-Are you looking for some particular details from this arc? I think Oil is a totally boring character. I'm not sure I love all the Bardock stuff, but I like it enough, and I try to view it through the themes of the arc (which makes it work).
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:07 pm Secondly, it could take away from Goku's achievements, at least to some extent. If this wish does actually entail protection from enemies or other forces, then it means that Goku did not advance purely by his own doing, but by his father's wish. I rather have it be Goku's own work.
Thirdly, what purpose does this wish serve for the events of the present? It definitely affects the past, but how does it add anything to the character arcs of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, etc?
If Goku survives by plot armor since he is the main character (which was the case when the original series was written) vs this small detail (which only impacts this arc and only prevent him from dying/exiting the story), what's the difference?

What does it add? Characterization for Bardock, and an opportunity for Goku to react to that. Is it necessary? No. Do I like it? I don't hate it, but I haven't really decided yet.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri May 13, 2022 3:11 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:53 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:07 pm Secondly, it could take away from Goku's achievements, at least to some extent. If this wish does actually entail protection from enemies or other forces, then it means that Goku did not advance purely by his own doing, but by his father's wish. I rather have it be Goku's own work.
Thirdly, what purpose does this wish serve for the events of the present? It definitely affects the past, but how does it add anything to the character arcs of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, etc?
If Goku survives by plot armor since he is the main character (which was the case when the original series was written) vs this small detail (which only impacts this arc and only prevent him from dying/exiting the story), what's the difference?
I mean, aside from that rat appearing beside General Blue and Goku's revival after his first fight with King Piccolo, not everything good that happened to Goku was a result of plot armor.
What does it add? Characterization for Bardock, and an opportunity for Goku to react to that. Is it necessary? No. Do I like it? I don't hate it, but I haven't really decided yet.
Such a reaction certainly would not have changed Goku's view on his father regardless. That is why it would be unnecessary, it just doesn't add anything meaningful in the grand scheme of Goku's character arc in this saga.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri May 13, 2022 3:16 pm

Liquir wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:00 am So it wasn't just a coincidence. :o
This is funny right now because the frog gag on Namek is almost exactly like it. Through pure happenstance, some critter comes along to prevent shit from hitting the fan.

I love Goku's stupid random luck because it fits his character perfectly and Dragon Ball's tone perfectly. The audience has loved it for nearly 40 years. It's not something that requires or benefits from elucidation.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri May 13, 2022 3:37 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:45 am The fact that people are less concerned with Bardock's gesture and more concerned with how that how this affects the sacred canon of DB lore probably speaks to something. The apparent wish does not diminish Goku's struggles, hard work, or any part of his journey. Goku deserved to live on from his dangerous moments regardless of the Dragon Balls. Living was the bare minimum, and his Goku Way continued after the wish seems to have worn off.
Cipher wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:30 am but there were also probably less divisive ways to achieve the same effect.
I think controversial DB is best DB. We know it's done on purpose, and it's part of what gives the series its edge. In this particular case, it is even acknowledged by Vegeta taking the voice of the audience.
lol
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:14 pm They need to just take away Toyotaro's pen at this point, my god.

This nigga is ASS.
Man ain't got authority for big wish lore stuff, that's the big chief's prerogative

Though it is his fault for wanting to include Bardock in the arc in the 1st place lmao
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:11 pm
batistabus wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:53 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:07 pm Secondly, it could take away from Goku's achievements, at least to some extent. If this wish does actually entail protection from enemies or other forces, then it means that Goku did not advance purely by his own doing, but by his father's wish. I rather have it be Goku's own work.
Thirdly, what purpose does this wish serve for the events of the present? It definitely affects the past, but how does it add anything to the character arcs of Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, etc?
If Goku survives by plot armor since he is the main character (which was the case when the original series was written) vs this small detail (which only impacts this arc and only prevent him from dying/exiting the story), what's the difference?
I mean, aside from that rat appearing beside General Blue and Goku's revival after his first fight with King Piccolo, not everything good that happened to Goku was a result of plot armor.
What does it add? Characterization for Bardock, and an opportunity for Goku to react to that. Is it necessary? No. Do I like it? I don't hate it, but I haven't really decided yet.
Such a reaction certainly would not have changed Goku's view on his father regardless. That is why it would be unnecessary, it just doesn't add anything meaningful in the grand scheme of Goku's character arc in this saga.
The wish is indeed pretty pointless in the context of the current arc beyond (at the most aggressive interpretation) recontextualising every struggle in OG DB beyond, as this dude says, as "an unncessary Goku reaction/Bardock characterisation opportunity" lol
Usually, I don't esp mind these kinds of "unnecessary" moments in the manga that are just there for characterisation/reaction opps, esp when the wish was originally thought to be ambiguous, but now that it's been explicitly addressed in this chapter with mass series implications, well- that's when it's a just a teensy bit iffy. And I do understand why some might be upset with this.
batistabus wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:53 pm
DestructoDisc wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:44 pm I have a question for you, if you don't mind me asking. Has there ever been anything shown in this manga that you ever had a problem with? I'm curious cause I never see you criticize anything.
I'll answer. Perhaps the implication is that I am a blind fanboy who is incapable of seeing anything wrong with the manga?

-Are you looking for some particular details from this arc? I think Oil is a totally boring character. I'm not sure I love all the Bardock stuff, but I like it enough, and I try to view it through the themes of the arc (which makes it work).
Then again, that's (looking at this in context with the series as a whole rather than in this arc as a vaccum) not esp what you're willing to do lmao
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri May 13, 2022 3:42 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:11 pm I mean, aside from that rat appearing beside General Blue and Goku's revival after his first fight with King Piccolo, not everything good that happened to Goku was a result of plot armor.

Such a reaction certainly would not have changed Goku's view on his father regardless. That is why it would be unnecessary, it just doesn't add anything meaningful in the grand scheme of Goku's character arc in this saga.
Goku not dying in those circumstances was a result of extreme luck. Was Goku lucky because of the infinite odds of the universe? Karma? A blessing from the gods? A wish from a shooting star, or magic dragon perhaps? Goku was put into dire circumstances where it looked like he would die, but Toriyama wrote his way out of it. It's fun and charming regardless of the reason (meta or in-universe). As for other good things that happened to him, just look at Raditz. Raditz survived and became big and strong, but his life and fate was drastically different than Goku's.

Bardock was given a wish and chose a selfless one (according to Monaito anyway, Bardock would probably say it's selfish). Humans in the Dragon Ball world are generally selfish (as shown constantly throughout the series), and you especially wouldn't expect a wish like that from a mercenary (similar to how the gods didn't expect No.17's wish). How would that not leave an impact on Goku? Apparently Goku has learned he needs to believe in his own power more, which is also what Merus said. Bardock didn't need a boost from magic, an escape, or to identify Gas' weakness; he only needed to look deeper within himself.

Could this scene have worked without that wish? Probably, but I'm not the author(s), and the story isn't finished.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri May 13, 2022 4:07 pm

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:37 pmThough it is his fault for wanting to include Bardock in the arc in the 1st place lmao
Not that there is any inherent problem in wanting to include a character in the saga, of course.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri May 13, 2022 5:01 pm

Genuinely not seeing what the issue is, here - but then again, I'd never subscribed to the idea that the wish wasn't granted. Seems like the fanbase are just getting weirdly bent out of shape over something that they were fine with the first time it rolled around in original Dragon Ball. To explain:
Xeogran wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:08 amBut it irks me it's not the Earth's Dragon who saved him and some random, asspull one. Considering the ties Goku has to our Shenron and not Torombo. It all feels so scripted and fake.
Son Goku doesn't have a connection to Shenron, particularly; nor even to the Dragon Balls of Earth, per se - his actual connection is to specific people, by means of the Dragon Balls. His relationship to Earth's Dragon Balls is actually his relationship to Son Gohan, since he considers that it contains Gohan's spirit. DB #87 makes this connection crystal clear when it's revealed the Four-Star Dragon Ball protected Goku from Tao Pai Pai's Dodonpa and saved him from certain death - Goku's response is "Grampa saved my life".

All Bardock's wish does, even at a maximally interventive interpretation, is just spin that record again, giving us a connection between Goku and his closest relative by means of the Dragon Balls, to the end that his life is saved at unspecified critical junctures (his heart stopping against Piccolo Daimao is really the only one that springs readily to mind, since others have self-evident personal agency aspects or other clear explanations that are sufficient).

All this seems to be, then, is the Dragon Ball in Goku's pocket again - only this time, it may as well just be 'Dad saved my life'. Bardock's spirit is thereby with Goku just as Son Gohan's was. For Son Goku to maintain his connections with his closest relatives by means of the same power and to the same ends that has run through his own personal story for as long as we've been with him - this just seems entirely fitting. And, as I say, simply what we've seen before, recast for the situation. Not even controversial; not on any level.
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:10 am Here's the elephant in the room: DB in its early years had plenty of tension, be it Piccolo Daimao or many scenes prior. Literally all of that is undermined with kid Goku having magic plot armor. Full stop.
And on this point, it's worth returning to wertham's post in the Chapter 83 thread - specifically, to the unarguable point that for as long as his character has existed, Bardock has served to foreordain Goku's success. In Lonely Final Battle, he literally sees Goku fight his battles and grow to manhood successfully as an inescapable, preordained future - more than once. Goku is fated to grow up well and face Freeza, so that he can carry out his father's will and avenge the Saiyans. That Bardock in the Granolah arc actively wants Goku to grow up well, as opposed to merely seeing it, only changes things on a character relationship level (and on the point that he doesn't want it for 'Vengeance', but merely for its own sake - his father's will is that his son should just live, as depicted in Broly). Otherwise, things are precisely unchanged. What's the fuss about?

(Not saying one has to like what Lonely Final Battle did either, of course, but it is Bardock's original canonical depiction, so complaining about writers not changing a fundamental established aspect of his whole narrative purpose seems rather ungenerous - particularly given what this story has been about, which lends itself very naturally to this connection.)
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:55 am
Xeogran wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:46 am
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:32 am I was already disappointed by Bardock's sudden white-knightery with the Cerealian mom and kid, but this just makes things worse.
And people said Bardock is still the same "bad guy" from the TV special, yet we never see him kill a single Cerealian and conveniently even in his Oozaru form he was just "on the watch". Yep, that's it. Bad Bardock is no more.
Why would anyone think the old and modern Bardocks were the same? It should have been apparent that the modern character is a separate entity since DB Broly, if not DB-.
I'd say this is more a subtle shift of what Saiyans are "about" at different points in Dragon Ball. In Lonely Final Battle, for instance, it seems clear enough that the Saiyans are about power; they worship it. Bardock scoffs at the idea of seeing Kakarot because he's a lowest-level warrior, and when he chances upon him later, he sees his BP of 2, calls him scum and runs off. I'd say now that the Saiyans are about fighting, which is a little different: power becomes a means (it allows better and more fights), rather than an end in itself, and it allows for a broader spectrum of sentiments shown by various Saiyans as naturally occurring, from Vegeta's original cold viciousness to Goku's sporting friendliness. Obviously Bardock has changed in depictions - partly in the insertion of a "humane sense" by Toriyama - but the broader context he operates in permits this adjustment; he can carry on fighting, sometimes quite viciously (as in Minus, where he's joyously kicking some alien's face in, or in his Toyotarou Drew It entry, where he's eating some unfortunate denizen he's killed), but without locking his character into just being like that. Just a thought.

Anyhoo, on themes - getting the restatements of the Past is Present, Why Do We Fight? and What Makes Us Who We Truly Are? again here; it's particularly nice to get the bald statement of the final one - getting back to one's own True Nature and going with the grain of one's self instead of against it has been an extremely important for the arc (and, arguably, Dragon Ball Super as a whole - think, for instance, of Zamas's violation of his own nature, on so many obvious levels; Jiren's very self-constructed persona as devoting his life to a cause that is undercut by his true desire; Granolah and Gas's poses that have already been exposed as not expressive of their true selves). Even the clothes gag seems like a cute little tip of the hat (even if it doesn't stay that way later in the Chapter) - Goku and Vegeta start out wearing the symbols of their masters, whose natures they cannot accurately replicate, and they become Saiyans, reminded by a figure from the past why they fight. That's pretty neat.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri May 13, 2022 5:25 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:07 pm
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:37 pmThough it is his fault for wanting to include Bardock in the arc in the 1st place lmao
Not that there is any inherent problem in wanting to include a character in the saga, of course.
Of course not, I don't especially mind it either beyond just the focus on him here particularly being too overwhelming and a bit out of place/shoehorned in

Just that a good amount of people, including here, just label him as a problem character (which is true to a degree, with his very existence as a character being "Goku's dad" rather than just a non-characterised jabroni)/his inclusion in making whatever he appears in as inherently "fanfiction-y"
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:01 pm Genuinely not seeing what the issue is, here - but then again, I'd never subscribed to the idea that the wish wasn't granted. Seems like the fanbase are just getting weirdly bent out of shape over something that they were fine with the first time it rolled around in original Dragon Ball. To explain:
Xeogran wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:08 amBut it irks me it's not the Earth's Dragon who saved him and some random, asspull one. Considering the ties Goku has to our Shenron and not Torombo. It all feels so scripted and fake.
Son Goku doesn't have a connection to Shenron, particularly; nor even to the Dragon Balls of Earth, per se - his actual connection is to specific people, by means of the Dragon Balls. His relationship to Earth's Dragon Balls is actually his relationship to Son Gohan, since he considers that it contains Gohan's spirit. DB #87 makes this connection crystal clear when it's revealed the Four-Star Dragon Ball protected Goku from Tao Pai Pai's Dodonpa and saved him from certain death - Goku's response is "Grampa saved my life".

All Bardock's wish does, even at a maximally interventive interpretation, is just spin that record again, giving us a connection between Goku and his closest relative by means of the Dragon Balls, to the end that his life is saved at unspecified critical junctures (his heart stopping against Piccolo Daimao is really the only one that springs readily to mind, since others have self-evident personal agency aspects or other clear explanations that are sufficient).

All this seems to be, then, is the Dragon Ball in Goku's pocket again - only this time, it may as well just be 'Dad saved my life'. Bardock's spirit is thereby with Goku just as Son Gohan's was. For Son Goku to maintain his connections with his closest relatives by means of the same power and to the same ends that has run through his own personal story for as long as we've been with him - this just seems entirely fitting. And, as I say, simply what we've seen before, recast for the situation. Not even controversial; not on any level.
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:10 am Here's the elephant in the room: DB in its early years had plenty of tension, be it Piccolo Daimao or many scenes prior. Literally all of that is undermined with kid Goku having magic plot armor. Full stop.
And on this point, it's worth returning to wertham's post in the Chapter 83 thread - specifically, to the unarguable point that for as long as his character has existed, Bardock has served to foreordain Goku's success. In Lonely Final Battle, he literally sees Goku fight his battles and grow to manhood successfully as an inescapable, preordained future - more than once. Goku is fated to grow up well and face Freeza, so that he can carry out his father's will and avenge the Saiyans. That Bardock in the Granolah arc actively wants Goku to grow up well, as opposed to merely seeing it, only changes things on a character relationship level (and on the point that he doesn't want it for 'Vengeance', but merely for its own sake - his father's will is that his son should just live, as depicted in Broly). Otherwise, things are precisely unchanged. What's the fuss about?

(Not saying one has to like what Lonely Final Battle did either, of course, but it is Bardock's original canonical depiction, so complaining about writers not changing a fundamental established aspect of his whole narrative purpose seems rather ungenerous - particularly given what this story has been about, which lends itself very naturally to this connection.)
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:55 am
Xeogran wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:46 am

And people said Bardock is still the same "bad guy" from the TV special, yet we never see him kill a single Cerealian and conveniently even in his Oozaru form he was just "on the watch". Yep, that's it. Bad Bardock is no more.
Why would anyone think the old and modern Bardocks were the same? It should have been apparent that the modern character is a separate entity since DB Broly, if not DB-.
I'd say this is more a subtle shift of what Saiyans are "about" at different points in Dragon Ball. In Lonely Final Battle, for instance, it seems clear enough that the Saiyans are about power; they worship it. Bardock scoffs at the idea of seeing Kakarot because he's a lowest-level warrior, and when he chances upon him later, he sees his BP of 2, calls him scum and runs off. I'd say now that the Saiyans are about fighting, which is a little different: power becomes a means (it allows better and more fights), rather than an end in itself, and it allows for a broader spectrum of sentiments shown by various Saiyans as naturally occurring, from Vegeta's original cold viciousness to Goku's sporting friendliness. Obviously Bardock has changed in depictions - partly in the insertion of a "humane sense" by Toriyama - but the broader context he operates in permits this adjustment; he can carry on fighting, sometimes quite viciously (as in Minus, where he's joyously kicking some alien's face in, or in his Toyotarou Drew It entry, where he's eating some unfortunate denizen he's killed), but without locking his character into just being like that. Just a thought.
I'd say the fuss of what people are lashing out as is moreso how much agency Bardock plays into Goku's fate & journey compared to Goku himself now (the notion that "Goku was always fated to survive/he didn't truly work, earn and struggle"), or at least him/his legacy still being relevant & making waves in the present (in terms of the plot and the characters) at all when the original Bardock is primarily a character who lived and died in the past

And well, Bardock at the end of the day was an genocider (albeit apparently a whitewashed one who we don't see do so explicitly on screen recently) part of a species who in fact participated in/was complicit in the same genocide that killed Granolah and Monaito's people, the latter who is currently to this day dickriding him massively as some shining example of purity, so it may not be the best look to keep going "see, Saiyans are really cool/about accepting one's true self like any other species, Bardock's will has been passed on very epic"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Makaioshin » Fri May 13, 2022 5:45 pm

A really dire choice in character writing here only assuaged by the fact that this isn't a story that is ever acknowledged in any mainline narrative or even game. jjgp1112 said it best earlier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by fleahop » Fri May 13, 2022 5:47 pm

After giving it some thought I'm totally fine with the wish being made. Yes, it could explain some events in Dragon Ball and definitely affected him making it to Earth, but I think it ends with his maturation. Also, the extent of this wish is questionable. While Goku became a hero of Earth and made tons of friends with him even having a family, Raditz seemingly scraped by despite "growing up well". This still allows Goku's successes and choices to be his, in my opinion, as Raditz took different routes despite getting the same wish.

This also is really making me think that all of the Cerealian Dragon's wishes are like a monkey's paw situation as what at the odds these two brothers kill each other? I really hope that's the case as I think it makes the series richer, giving more variability to these magic creatures and items.

Hoping this chapter really leaves the Bardock crap alone though. Anytime he's involved it feels like a different manga to me.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri May 13, 2022 5:50 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:42 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:11 pm I mean, aside from that rat appearing beside General Blue and Goku's revival after his first fight with King Piccolo, not everything good that happened to Goku was a result of plot armor.

Such a reaction certainly would not have changed Goku's view on his father regardless. That is why it would be unnecessary, it just doesn't add anything meaningful in the grand scheme of Goku's character arc in this saga.
Goku not dying in those circumstances was a result of extreme luck. Was Goku lucky because of the infinite odds of the universe? Karma? A blessing from the gods? A wish from a shooting star, or magic dragon perhaps? Goku was put into dire circumstances where it looked like he would die, but Toriyama wrote his way out of it. It's fun and charming regardless of the reason (meta or in-universe). As for other good things that happened to him, just look at Raditz. Raditz survived and became big and strong, but his life and fate was drastically different than Goku's.
Yes, they were by extreme luck. There was nothing to suggest he was being blessed by a god (Kami?) or benefitted from Karma in the story. I am honestly not sure what your point is here, or even if you are trying to refute me...
Bardock was given a wish and chose a selfless one (according to Monaito anyway, Bardock would probably say it's selfish). Humans in the Dragon Ball world are generally selfish (as shown constantly throughout the series), and you especially wouldn't expect a wish like that from a mercenary (similar to how the gods didn't expect No.17's wish). How would that not leave an impact on Goku? Apparently Goku has learned he needs to believe in his own power more, which is also what Merus said. Bardock didn't need a boost from magic, an escape, or to identify Gas' weakness; he only needed to look deeper within himself.
I didn't say there would have been no reaction at all, but that Goku would come to the same conclusion regardless. With or without the wish, Goku remembered Bardock waving goodbye to him as he launched the Earth bound space pod, and would have realized that Bardock cared for him. That is why I was saying that wish would likely not be that significant to Goku's arc; he (and we, the reader) would get the point anyways.
Could this scene have worked without that wish? Probably, but I'm not the author(s), and the story isn't finished.
You know what, maybe you have a point. This part of the story isn't released, so we can't really determine how effective that plot point is. However, I'm still not liking the possible direction this is going...
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri May 13, 2022 6:08 pm

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:25 pmI'd say the fuss is moreso how much agency Bardock plays into Goku's fate & journey/struggles/successes compared to that of Goku himself now,
Well, this former element is in the eye of the beholder, and will hopefully stay ambiguous rather than being subjected to tiresome incremental scrutiny by people trying to push a tendentious line - Goku still deserves inestimable credit for making the most of his opportunities, and even those who live a charmed life are subject to contingency.
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:25 pmor at least him/his legacy still being relevant & making waves in the present (in terms of the plot and the characters) at all when the original Bardock is primarily a character who lived and died in the past
As for this latter element - well, the impact of one fateful day on people's actions in the present is what this whole story has been about since the beginning, so it seems churlish to object that the story is the story.
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:25 pmso it may not be the best look to keep going "see, Saiyans are really cool/about accepting one's true self like any other species, Bardock's will has been passed on very epic"
As for this, I don't recognise these sentiments in any post made in this topic, much less in what I was talking about, which is that (a) the wish made connects Bardock and Goku in a specifically Dragon Ball-ish way, such as has been seen before in the series (so it is fundamentally in keeping), (b) it doesn't change the context of Goku's personal agency in his own story in any way that is different to Bardock's original depiction, (c) an independent note about Bardock's change in character depiction over the years - such as it is - suggesting that it may be related to a minor shift in the emphasis on how Saiyans are depicted more generally, and (d) a thematic note (again, independent to the foregoing) on Goku and Vegeta specifically accepting their own true natures. So this seems rather a tangent. Or did you mean the story is trying to push that line? In which case, I don't really see that, either, but to each their own.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri May 13, 2022 6:20 pm

"Tiresome incremental scrutiny", he says, while Vegeta brazenly sums up the problem in two dialogue bubbles. It's almost like the manga acknowledges what it's doing and wants readers to acknowledge what it's changing.

Excuse the snark. But I just have to wonder if, in some alternate timeline where this reveal never happened in the manga, you guys would be balking at this idea if a fan suggested it. Not to be crude here because I'm genuinely curious. I sure as shit know I'd be balking for very obvious, very aforementioned reasons.

*shrug*
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri May 13, 2022 6:52 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:20 pm"Tiresome incremental scrutiny", he says, while Vegeta brazenly sums up the problem in two dialogue bubbles. It's almost like the manga acknowledges what it's doing and wants readers to acknowledge what it's changing.
More because I can't tell whether it's really ending up changing much of anything that's worth the objection or its vociferousness (or, indeed, the snark with which it's followed up), as I made quite plain above. But sure, let's look at it again.

The wish ensures Goku grows up. Okay. But:

(a) How often is kid Goku on the point of death in Dragon Ball (i.e, where the wish might be jeopardised and actually need to do something to continue to apply)? A few, tops? And one of those gets a straight explanation which is basically the same as this one in its basic function and character connection in any case, only related to a different father figure (apparently that's fine, though, because something something something);
(b) Bardock's original function in the continuity assured that Goku would grow up successfully in any case and face Freeza, so this wish isn't doing anything that wasn't already part of Bardock-related Dragon Ball;
(c) Surviving successfully to adulthood is not the same thing as actually prevailing over your challenges when they present themselves. Goku still needs to work to actually become what he is.

Moreover, in plenty of literature of all levels of sophistication, supernatural beings have a hand in mundane causation and yet the more ordinary characters who take centre stage need to still do their own thing right to get the outcomes they need. What's different here, exactly? Goku is 'Blessed', 'Privileged', or 'Has The Best Start In Life', if you like, but he still has to find his own way. And his greatest progress in his life came when the wish wasn't even operative by any possible understanding of its terms.

This is why it's tiresome to play parlour games of "Goku or Dragon for this bit?" on Dragon Ball's continuity (which is what I mean by 'incremental scrutiny'), because it's pretty obvious that this isn't the actual intention of the wish in its story function or basic meaning, and to imply otherwise seems like a deliberately hostile reading because it applies a forced exclusionary causation where it doesn't even seem to apply, for the sake of...I'm not even sure what.

"Shrug", indeed. I genuinely don't see it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri May 13, 2022 7:27 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:14 pm They need to just take away Toyotaro's pen at this point, my god.

This nigga is ASS.
Honestly it would be funny if this ended up being Toriyama's idea. Toyotaro said only Toriyama could make any major changes to the lore or something like that. He might've only wanted to show Bardock in a flashback and Toriyama said "nah let's take it a few steps further!"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri May 13, 2022 8:12 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:52 pm But:
No "buts". Lemme give it to you straight, since I think you missed the point; whatever you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm putting down. This is, has been as of last month, and now always will be, in this sequel series - as succinctly as Vegeta himself can put it - an issue of stakes, and of tension, and of predestiny sticking its nose into the symbolism of Goku's character where it doesn't belong. There are no stakes, retroactively, if Goku literally is immune to all manner of death by supernatural forces until he comes of age. It's that simple. That's what we're talking about.

This isn't rocket science. It doesn't take what you call "tiresome incremental scrutiny" to take issue with something the manga itself is drawing the reader's attention to. On top of that, there's the (equally apparent, and equally dubious) issue of this going to pretty asinine lengths to explain an element of the original run that didn't need explaining.

I didn't respond to your initial reply because it's a whataboutism, but also because my addendum in that post already addressed your reply: Toei's Bardock isn't Toriyama's Bardock. They're two different characters. I don't care what the TV special does, and in fact, I've been nothing but vocal about my vehement distaste for that special for years. The last thing I'd want is a parallel to that one in terms of predestination, given its clear thematic repercussions.

Also, nobody's saying that Goku didn't train in his childhood. Nobody is saying that Gohan's one-time "protection" (which is arguable, since it's framed as a happy coincidence) is tantamount to a sacred dragon contract through adolescence. Sorry, friend, but these are all complete non sequiturs. If he's predetermined to survive and grow up healthy no matter what, it undercuts his struggles regardless of those facts.
Skar wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:27 pm Honestly it would be funny if this ended up being Toriyama's idea.
That's possible. Personally, I'm apathetic to whether Toriyama, Toyotaro, Uchida, someone at Shueisha, my grandma or my dog came up with this. It's still bad, and I'd wager that Toyotaro is complicit for wanting to force Bardock into this arc in the first place.

Leaving Bardock's story in Super to DBS Broly would have been fine. Scratch that, it would've been fucking great! Why tamper with it?

As someone who, again, has been in the manga's corner for years, it's just sad to read the kind of mediocrity that's been on display for the past 8 months. It's been an awful time and judging from this month's drafts, I have no expectations for the coming chapter either.
Last edited by Mr Baggins on Fri May 13, 2022 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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