Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Thu May 19, 2022 3:00 pm

Image

I read the chapter getting what I was expecting and generally enjoyed the fighty-fighty punch-punch.
And y'all are melodramatic as hell lmao
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu May 19, 2022 3:32 pm

TKA wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:50 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:25 pm A lot of complaining from people who will continue to read and discuss the manga for years to come lol.
What a dumb argument and a pointless thing to post. This adds nothing to the discussion and is needlessly dismissive.

People post critiques because they care about the story and would like to see the story fix these supposed failures. That’s how artistic analysis works.
It's a kids series....written for a largely video game magazine. It's about characters named after vegetables punching one another while taking on transformations that give them different colour hair.

You take it that seriously as literature that you'd think people were discussing Lord of the Rings or something.

Would you see grown adults discussing the story failing of Dora the Explorer?

Just enjoy it for what it is. It's just light entertainment. It ain't trying to be anything more than that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu May 19, 2022 3:40 pm

I personally didn't enjoy this chapter too much, I suppose Goku and Vegeta shoudn't be able to fight at full power because they should still be tired, but the story isn't suggesting that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Thu May 19, 2022 3:41 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:32 pm
TKA wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:50 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:25 pm A lot of complaining from people who will continue to read and discuss the manga for years to come lol.
What a dumb argument and a pointless thing to post. This adds nothing to the discussion and is needlessly dismissive.

People post critiques because they care about the story and would like to see the story fix these supposed failures. That’s how artistic analysis works.
It's a kids series....written for a largely video game magazine. It's about characters named after vegetables punching one another while taking on transformations that give them different colour hair.

You take it that seriously as literature that you'd think people were discussing Lord of the Rings or something.

Would you see grown adults discussing the story failing of Dora the Explorer?

Just enjoy it for what it is. It's just light entertainment. It ain't trying to be anything more than that.
The Lord of the Rings is also children's literature. If we can discuss that seriously, why can't we discuss Dragon Ball? Academic papers have been written on Dragon Ball before. Anything can be dissected and analysed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mac » Thu May 19, 2022 3:51 pm

Xeogran wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:35 pm Ultra Instinct didn't felt like Ultra Instinct to me. I'm just not used to the white-haired Goku showing all these emotions, as if he was still fighting in base. I thought the form was supposed to be calm and collected but now it's just.. a literal recolor.
I knew this was gonna happen after the Moro arc, having a calm and collected Goku was too much to ask for. I definitely don't like how expressive he was either, it doesn't feel any different from any other form now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu May 19, 2022 5:45 pm

Enjoyable chapter. I preferred the first half but enjoyed the action in the second half.

Regarding the flashback, I always appreciate Toyotaro's ability to convey extended scenes without dialogue.

Since Goku's past had been sealed away from him, unlocking that memory helped him better understand who he was. It's not just a matter of him learning new information about Bardock, although Bardock teaches Goku to believe more in his own strength. This somewhat contradicts what Whis had said in RoF about Goku being too confident. When learning something, one can have a tendency to overcorrect and go too far in the other direction. This is similar to Vegeta's journey; he tried to make up for his sins in the Moro arc, but he went too far and it hindered his mentality. We've known this since Beerus said it, but it finally clicked for Vegeta. Both Saiyans have compromised their nature over the course of Super for various reasons (including power).

"What a funny way for your will to be passed down". I said I wouldn't talk about the wish again this chapter, but I also think this statement adds to the ambiguity.

Gas' entrance was really cool. Teleported as soon as he was able and then super hero landing. Also enjoyed his interaction with Oil.

Migatte no Gokui and Wagamama no Gokui fighting side-by-side was one of the promises of the arc. It was satisfying to see it fulfilled. Toyotaro did a good job visually contrasting the two, and I think the contrast is further enhanced in black-and-white (their clothes generally match their hair). Seems like this will actually be the final stretch, but it's safe to assume Granolah will jump in at some point.

Toyo forgot to draw Vegeta's earring a few times (he apologized for it on Twitter, "Please imagine it's there" lol), and also forgot Elec's beard on a closeup. Small details that will probably be fixed for the collected volume. Generally, I think the art in the first half of the chapter seemed more polished, but I won't read into that too much. Gas' hair flows fabulously as always.
Last edited by batistabus on Thu May 19, 2022 5:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu May 19, 2022 5:46 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:21 pm
Xeogran wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:35 pm Ultra Instinct didn't felt like Ultra Instinct to me. I'm just not used to the white-haired Goku showing all these emotions, as if he was still fighting in base. I thought the form was supposed to be calm and collected but now it's just.. a literal recolor.
This was also a major factor for my disappointment. Like, I remember the Moro arc's final battle had Goku make a few expressions in UI, but this is way too much.

Dang it Toyotarou, dang it...
I hard disagree with this. The differences between UE and UI were made clear in this chapter, from the transformation scene (furious / expressive Vegeta and calm / tranquil Goku) to the battle, with Vegeta always being the one to jump and head wildly into the battle against Gas while goku always kept himself collected and calm. And UI Goku was never completely emotionless anyway.

But I mean, when he's not in a superior position styling on the opponent with minimal effort, naturally he's going to look more expressive because he's going to need to actually put some effort into the fight. But in that sense there's not much to be done, unless situations are created for him to be defeated quickly without making too much effort (like Granolah finding his weak spot after the UI accuracy drops). Here he is being straight up overpowered. But you can't always create situations like this, otherwise Goku would be invincible. Anyway, I don't feel like the UI concepts were betrayed in this chapter.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu May 19, 2022 5:50 pm

Rather plain, but I like it. The only leak I saw was a panel of UI Goku and UE Vegeta standing side by side, and it’s the whole plot of the issue. I say this every other month, but we’re definitely heading to end the saga within the next couple months now. Gas still has the upperhand, but it’s not gonna last. The only dangling plot thread is Granolah’s fate. Will he get up in time to help Goku and Vegeta? I’d love to see them fighting together. Would be the manga’s equivalent of the Goku/Freeza/17 team up for me. And if so, will he sacrifice himself to beat Gas? He’s only got a couple years left anyway, so they might as well kill him off now.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Thu May 19, 2022 6:02 pm

I for one am outraged at the action manga having fighty fighting
kemuri07 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:39 pm
Others already gave an apt analysis of the homily Monaito gave about the nature of one's pride in their species. How does he think Vegeta got to where he was today or what motivated him to devise the strategy against Buu that enabled humanity to be resurrected? His actions there weren't brought on by just some epiphany of the affection he has for his newfound family but also a desire to repent for the lives he took, both directly and indirectly in allowing Buu to be released. The Saiyans were an inherently barbaric group whose sole aim was to fight and pillage for their personal benefit; for the character pair to accept such base sentiments would run counter intuitively to lives they've made for themselves on Earth. Not to say that Saiyans are incapable of being good people it's just that they seemed to be the outlier instead of the norm. Also, about the pursuance of vengeance not being what defines pride what's assessment of Vegeta's tearful plea to Goku on Namek that Freeza must be defeated by a Saiyan? Monaito obviously wouldn't know of these past events but what's been established prior during the original Dragon Ball's run seems to contradict or at least complicate the lessons being imparted now.
It only makes sense if you considered that this series went out of its way to soften the Saiyans. Considering the fact that DBZ described them as ruthless, genocidal, capitalist, burning everything they came across, the idea that Vegeta's personal dilemma gets resolved with "I gotta have Saiyan pride" is....yeah.

I think there's a stronger, smarter version of this arc in which a troubled Vegeta manages to accept the flaws of his heritage, and come out stronger for that could have made this work. But this arc doesn't devote enough time to it, so its just resolved with Vegeta basically shouting out his character arc.
The arc just seems like it's spinning off DBS: Broly, or at least this Nagamine interview answer: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
Image

And considering the 1st half of this arc did feature the Saiyans as "ruthless, genocidal, capitalist, burning everything they came across", well, it's not like this arc pretends they're saints either. I've said this elsewhere, but just the takeaway "Vegeta's personal dilemma gets resolved with "I gotta have Saiyan pride" being circular/problematic" is willfully missing the point. Vegeta has been yammering on about "Saiyans are a warrior race YEAH" throughout DBS with the ToP at being the recent furthest, but that's been dampened/now he's been shook by these past 2 arcs with him as a better man being directly forced to confront his past evil in Moro and his people's integrity (in which he develops a full-blown guilt complex over, that only gets heightened into near-suicidal ideation when he does encounter an actual Saiyan genocide survivor bent-on-revenge reminding him of himself). As such, I think him re-internalising his Saiyan pride with a healthier mindset/in a healthier way is a natural conclusion for him.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:46 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:21 pm
Xeogran wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:35 pm Ultra Instinct didn't felt like Ultra Instinct to me. I'm just not used to the white-haired Goku showing all these emotions, as if he was still fighting in base. I thought the form was supposed to be calm and collected but now it's just.. a literal recolor.
This was also a major factor for my disappointment. Like, I remember the Moro arc's final battle had Goku make a few expressions in UI, but this is way too much.

Dang it Toyotarou, dang it...
I hard disagree with this. The differences between UE and UI were made clear in this chapter, from the transformation scene (furious / expressive Vegeta and calm / tranquil Goku) to the battle, with Vegeta always being the one to jump and head wildly into the battle against Gas while goku always kept himself collected and calm. And UI Goku was never completely emotionless anyway.

But I mean, when he's not in a superior position styling on the opponent with minimal effort, naturally he's going to look more expressive because he's going to need to actually put some effort into the fight. But in that sense there's not much to be done, unless situations are created for him to be defeated quickly without making too much effort (like Granolah finding his weak spot after the UI accuracy drops). Here he is being straight up overpowered. But you can't always create situations like this, otherwise Goku would be invincible. Anyway, I don't feel like the UI concepts were betrayed in this chapter.
Agreed on UI Goku being fine this chapter, and p much the more traditional fighting/expressions is just a consequence of Gas being (written) as strong & fast if not stronger/faster than UI Goku (akin to Jiren going toe-to-toe and forcing him out of the state in the ToP or Moro getting UI & his fight with UI Goku basically boiling down into a regular battle between 2 guys) and UI Goku did make emotional faces at least before esp since his 2nd fight with Angel Moro or vs the clone Granolah once he got swerved.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Thu May 19, 2022 6:16 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:32 pm You take it that seriously as literature that you'd think people were discussing Lord of the Rings or something.
Lord of the Rings is literally a child's bedtime story, let's not pretend its some high watermark of literature.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu May 19, 2022 6:32 pm

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 84:

- So what was the point of Bardock being introduced in the arc? He added nothing substantial to the story in terms of narrative themes, character development or plot development. If the point of Bardock being introduced to the plot was for Goku to truly understand what Saiyan pride is, then that is beyond redundant. This was already covered comprehensively in the original manga. Goku already knows what it means to have the pride of Saiyan. He asked Vegeta to share the pride of the Saiyan race with him during the Namek arc in the climactic battle against Freeza. This narrative subtext reached its natural conclusion in the climactic battle in the Majin Boo arc when Goku decides to battle like a Saiyan and forgo the use of Potara against Kid Boo and fight like a true Saiyan in a one-on-one battle.

I also stand by my original comments about the circumstances of the wish: its BEYOND fucking stupid. It's singlehandedly the dumbest narrative decision I have ever seen in a Dragon Ball story, and that is REALLY saying something since Dragon Ball Minus and Dragon Ball Heroes exists. Some aspects of the story don't need an explanation. We didn't need to know how Goku developed the way he did as a child and young adult. Part of the charm of the original story was how organic it appeared.

Goku's circumstances for his growth were portrayed as a wonderful balance of Goku's abilities as a martial artist as well as a shit load of luck, ya know, just like how it works in real life, and that's what made Goku a relatable character despite the story making it clear he was head and shoulders above his competition in terms of potential. You never envied Goku as a character because he was special, you appreciated him because he earned everything that he attained. And when he got that big stroke of luck or had a favour given to him, it didn't feel out of place because it wonderfully juxtaposed the effort he put in to bring out the best of himself or others in martial arts and sometimes in life in general. Bardock's wish kills all of this by putting an unnecessarily large, dark cloud over the agency of Goku himself regarding how much Goku's development as a person and martial was to Goku's own autonomy doing or due to literal plot armour.

More importantly, though, Bardock didn't need to be THIS important to Goku's story. The whole point of Bardock's character was that he has no significance. This serves to diametrically oppose the significance Goku would have on the universe. And yes, I still blame Toriyama for all of this. He laid down the foundation for Bardock being an integral character in Goku's story by having him be the one to send Goku to earth. Bardock is meant to be a fleeting memory of an age that is long gone, and that is emphasised with the brief flashback in the Freeza arc when Bardock is only mentioned out of convenience. Bardock (initially) viewed his son with contempt because of his low battle power at birth and in his last fleeting moments realises that his son may have a great role in life than he expected. That's where the dramatic irony lies, and that's what elevates EVERYTHING about Goku's journey and gives it that unique twist on the typical "I want to become stronger" narrative you see in most shonen manga and anime. Goku defied everything Bardock and the society and culture he was a part of represented.

Now we have the usual "parental figure has a huge significance in the development of the main character" schtick that has been done a million times in other shonen. The Bardock I remember loving was originally a piece of shit space pirate that had little or no regard for life, which even extended to his own family, but still harboured a level of humanity with an expression of stress and fear over the fate of his race which would develop in genuine concern. This characterisation is what made him fighting to avenge his fallen comrades and kill Freeza to save his race so engaging and intriguing. Now he's just a stock anti-hero like in other shonen. And Dragon Ball strived to be more than just "other shonen".

So with Dragon Ball Minus brutally kneecapping several themes in the second half of the story and Dragon Ball Super deciding to build on that shit foundation by retroactively recontextualising Goku's agency growing up, as well as the function of Goku's friends and mentors... I say with no hyperbole that Toriyama and Toyotaro, with the reintroduction of Bardock's character, have actively destroyed Goku's journey as a martial artist and all the themes that tie into it. This character assassination. There's no other of seeing it as anything but that. But hey, at least we now know that Goku was always The Special™ and The Chosen One®.

- Speaking of narrative themes, this arc has a pretty basic theme but it's handled in the most glurge, overly sentimental bullshit manner I've seen a narrative theme be enforced in a Dragon Ball story. It's the kind of trie shit you'd see in modern shonen manga and is the kind of execution of narrative theme Dragon Ball either avoided or had an intriguing enough twist to it to make it stand out in terms of development and/or execution. It also doesn't help that the theme this arc focuses on does NOTHING to actually develop Goku and Vegeta in any significant manner. Goku and Vegeta's characterisation in battle doesn't feel any different now from how they were at the beginning of the arc. The same can be said for Gas. He's gone through ZERO character development. He still makes the same generic "bad guy" threats and statements. Nothing has changed. This is not good storytelling.

- I just don't care for fighting. I really don't care. The arc has given me no reason to care. I don't care about how the status quo will be maintained. I care about intriguing character development based on unique character dynamics that are supported by an overarching narrative theme that feels organic to previous arcs and not counterproductive to previously established events, character development or narrative themes. Toyotaro was able to do this before, so what that hell happened with this arc?

Overall thoughts... Fuck. This. Arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Thu May 19, 2022 7:56 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:50 pm Rather plain, but I like it. The only leak I saw was a panel of UI Goku and UE Vegeta standing side by side, and it’s the whole plot of the issue. I say this every other month, but we’re definitely heading to end the saga within the next couple months now. Gas still has the upperhand, but it’s not gonna last. The only dangling plot thread is Granolah’s fate. Will he get up in time to help Goku and Vegeta? I’d love to see them fighting together. Would be the manga’s equivalent of the Goku/Freeza/17 team up for me. And if so, will he sacrifice himself to beat Gas? He’s only got a couple years left anyway, so they might as well kill him off now.
Pretty much what I thought about this chapter, I was expecting something more interesting or with a little oomph. Although it looks like Vegeta's ability to get stronger from damage might be the path to victory; however, since it's Vegeta he possibly will get sidelined next chapter or the one after.

Sidenote: I wonder how Gas compares to Beerus?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Thu May 19, 2022 9:07 pm

Damage is nothing but fuel for me . Really like this vegeta new form spirit , still having a problem with eyebrow design .
Pace is what it is ( monthly) , always better to read all together in collected volumes .
I still think freeza will appear somehow , and that android coming from previous arc or whatever it was .. I already forgot .
November we will have a conclusion I guess , 5 more chapters
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu May 19, 2022 9:08 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:16 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:32 pm You take it that seriously as literature that you'd think people were discussing Lord of the Rings or something.
Lord of the Rings is literally a child's bedtime story, let's not pretend its some high watermark of literature.
The Hobbit was the children's book. Lord of the Rings was not.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Thu May 19, 2022 9:15 pm

Not a difficult achievement, but the best of the chapter goes to:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Thu May 19, 2022 10:40 pm

i begin to wonder if Toyotaro has actually read the manga or watched the original series before ? Like how do you make such narrative mistakes consistently? Its like he doesn't learn from his writing mistakes he's made from previous arcs

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Thu May 19, 2022 10:53 pm

So, stoic Bardock of DBS vs evil Bardock of DBZ ?
One iteration isn't really better than the other, both are well introduced. "DBZ Bardock is a Bardock without Gine", sums it nicely. It all comes down to opinion here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Nistarkail » Fri May 20, 2022 1:29 am

I just hope that Gas will be gunned from his brother after the obvious loss of this infinite battle :lol: Essentially he's the only minor antagonist of DBS recycled from Naruto and Legend of Zelda. Since the beginning he was so annoying and very bad scripted, with a weird complex of inferiority towards Elec.

And about Granolah I'm really curious what can be his destiny, because since the "trollish" wish now he has three years of life (but he's not the strongest of the universe anymore, so his strength has returned to normal). This act can conclude with a retreat by the Heeters, and surely we will understand why OG-73 is in their hands and how the most dangerous army of U7 will be.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Metalwario64 » Fri May 20, 2022 2:49 am

I don't really have much to add right now, but I'm happy that between this and Super Hero, that Vegeta's finally seeming to have returned to his Buu arc attire, which is my personal favorite look for him. The Cell arc armor became so overused and tired.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Seekeroftruth » Fri May 20, 2022 4:39 am

Just when you think the writing cannot get any worse after chapter 83, Toyo outdoes himself in this chapter with even worse storytelling. So many things wrong and retconned from previous established cannon.

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