Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri May 13, 2022 7:08 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:46 am Dude still helped in wrecking the planet and its people, plus "canonically" helps in killing at least one more planet's inhabitants afterward with glee (though it conveniently gets skimmed over in Broly)
Wouldn't be surprised if all he did was to watch over the process and not kill anyone with his own attacks now. Somehow they don't want to show him doing evil tasks anymore even in flashbacks.
PurestEvil wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:55 am Why would anyone think the old and modern Bardocks were the same? It should have been apparent that the modern character is a separate entity since DB Broly, if not DB-.
Yep, they are separate, but we still continue getting references to the special anyway which is weird when that Bardock is no more.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri May 13, 2022 7:11 am

mute_proxy wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:33 am So Goku always prevails and keeps one upping everyone thoughout the series is because of the wish?
Only for the original pre-Z DB, because the wish expired when he started his family. Which is why he died right away at the start of it.
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:46 am Idk about back then, but I'm guessing he does now since Toyo (apparently) has no authority over this kind of stuff despite him being the one to propose bringing Bardock into the story.
If Toyo didn't propose Bardock into this arc, this Goku-Shielding wish wouldn't be made either. This dumb twist is all on him >_>

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri May 13, 2022 7:16 am

Xeogran wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:11 am
mute_proxy wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:33 am So Goku always prevails and keeps one upping everyone thoughout the series is because of the wish?
Only for the original pre-Z DB, because the wish expired when he started his family. Which is why he died right away at the start of it.
Or I guess (if we're gonna be entertaining any implications about this nebulously vague wish) Piccolo Jr at the 23rd Budokai, since he was no longer a kid and had grown into a man at the time.
Xeogran wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:11 am
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:46 am Idk about back then, but I'm guessing he does now since Toyo (apparently) has no authority over this kind of stuff despite him being the one to propose bringing Bardock into the story.
If Toyo didn't propose Bardock into this arc, this Goku-Shielding wish wouldn't be made either. This dumb twist is all on him >_>
Well, I'll take his word that even so it probably wasn't his idea, despite him inadvertently paving the way for Toriyama to come up with a brand new (ambiguous) Minus-related retcon lmao

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri May 13, 2022 8:51 am

I am secretly hoping this wish business is actually not true and that it involves something else entirely, and that we the fans are not getting the real picture yet.
Good grief…
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri May 13, 2022 9:04 am

Until the chapter releases I won't make any hasty statements, and while the wish being granted would suck, Minus already turned Goku's amazing conqueror-turned-savior story into saiyasuperman, so I cannot really jump on board the "Toyo ruining the original franchise" train.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri May 13, 2022 9:10 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:46 am Make of & extrapolate from that as you will (like Goku surviving Tao's Dodon Ray, Blue's shotgun and King Piccolo stopping his heart)
I actually have seen a few attempts to justify this wish on the grounds that it retroactively makes those moments "better", despite the fact that adult Goku also gets instances of dumb luck and that it's obviously not something Toriyama had intended to isolate to any one timeframe. In Super, it's practically a character trait.

Here's the elephant in the room: DB in its early years had plenty of tension, be it Piccolo Daimao or many scenes prior. Literally all of that is undermined with kid Goku having magic plot armor. Full stop.
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Also, I profoundly disagree with anyone claiming that Minus "laid the foundation" for this to happen. Minus, and later Broly, is just a father making a gamble on the odds of his son surviving. The TV special literally pre-ordains Goku to survive/revive up until Freeza where he ultimately defeats him in a cosmically foretold comeuppance, so if there are any parallels to be drawn here, it's with that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri May 13, 2022 9:28 am

Well, I guess you can tie this wish with some elements of the original manga, like Roshi even back in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai talking about how the Dragon Balls were what made Goku who he is today (before that larger context even existed, kind of giving greater meaning to it).

This can be used as explanations for some plot devices or writing conveniences like Goku surviving King Piccolo and Tao Pai Pai. You could even argue that in the larger scope of the wish, Goku surviving the Planet Vegeta explosion and the King Piccolo / Tao Pai Pai situation would be the only times the wish could have had any effect on Goku's survival, which doesn't take away from his achievements nor his active effort and learning during his journey (the wish did not win the battles for him, nor did he give him strength). You can also just chalk this up to Goku himself being the one who firstly affected Bardock, which in turn affected him back (with the trend of him changing people around him, even without the intention). And I think thematically, the final scene of the original manga's last battle with Goku thanking the Dragon Balls and being aided precisely by a wish sounds more poetic now.

But with that said....this wish wasn't necessary at all. I don't see the point of this plot point, even though I don't think it retroactively alters Goku's story as dramatically as some are thinking. But I would much rather have that fact remain ambiguous and serve only as a sweet moment of Bardock wishing his sons the best rather than something like that. It's just something that didn't need to exist and I understand people getting upset about it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Fri May 13, 2022 9:30 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:10 am Here's the elephant in the room: DB in its early years had plenty of tension, be it Piccolo Daimao or many scenes prior. Literally all of that is undermined with kid Goku having magic plot armor. Full stop.
Holding my tongue on other elements of the preview for now, but on this: That tension in earlier arcs will never be undermined by later material on either first read or subsequent rereads, just as the tension Piccolo and Vegeta provide as villains will never be undermined by the knowledge they later become friends, just as the tension of Goku and Vegeta choosing to become Vegetto in the Boo arc isn't undermined by the later revelation that the fusion is temporary, etc. The additional developments, context, retcons, etc. are set apart from the original scenes by volumes upon volumes (an 50+ and across two series in this case), and will never affect a first pass or how they read in execution down the line. This is information the series gives you 19 volumes after the epilogue of the original series, and it's offered in that light--not something it gives you going into Volume 1, and not something intended to diminish anything that's come prior.

A series can always add context that affects new material, or how the piece works as a whole, but later material never stands to change the way earlier portions work, unless you decide to examine it through that lens (but then, that's not really what those scenes or storylines are doing on their own).

If you like what the additional angle does for those moments viewing DB+Super as a whole, or don't like it, that's one thing. But Goku vs. Piccolo doesn't suddenly become a different story for the revelation in the Granolah arc. What's more relevant here is whether the revelation here does anything for Bardock and Goku in the context of this arc, or for DB as a whole as added context, and I get why there could be debate as to its efficacy on both fronts. But I'm not sure I'm entirely on board with the idea that it's undermined the tension--in-scene, in execution--of anything that's come prior, or that it even has the ability to.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:28 am You can also just chalk this up to Goku himself being the one who firstly affected Bardock, which in turn affected him back (with the trend of him changing people around him, even without the intention). And I think thematically, the final scene of the original manga's last battle with Goku thanking the Dragon Balls and being aided precisely by a wish sounds more poetic now.

But with that said....this wish wasn't necessary at all. I don't see the point of this plot point, even though I don't think it retroactively alters Goku's story as dramatically as some are thinking. But I would much rather have that fact remain ambiguous and serve only as a sweet moment of Bardock wishing his sons the best rather than something like that.
Realistically, this is about where I land. I think there are some positive spins it can lend to the reading of the overall series and existing moments if you like, but also--despite that--am not entirely sure it needed to be introduced at all for the recontextualization headaches it causes (it's not like anything about the original was in particular need of the reframing), and all the while don't think it's all that worth fussing about either way.

Does it work in the context of its arc? I think mostly, but there were also probably less divisive ways to achieve the same effect.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Fri May 13, 2022 9:49 am

I beg to differ, Goku being sent to conquer earth didn't make sense since Frieza gave order for every Sayan to return home and sending a naked child on a planet hoping for him to "conquer" it is dumb.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri May 13, 2022 9:52 am

Cipher wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:30 am unless you decide to examine it through that lens
In the context of Super, you are intrinsically examining it through that lens; it's a sequel series built upon the foundation of the original that actively references the original and uses the original to enact its intended themes. There's no divorcing the two here.

I don't disagree that nothing in Super can affect Toriyama's work in its own context. However, I'm not examining the original manga in this thread.
Cipher wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:30 am I think mostly, but there were also probably less divisive ways to achieve the same effect.
I have a general rule of thumb for this kind of thing. If, as a reader, you find yourself spending more of your time and effort looking for justifications as to why this plot point somehow isn't a problem rather than just articulating why you liked it, or what you feel it actually adds to the broader story, maybe that speaks to how unnecessary and pointless it is.

Even just character-wise, there's nothing particularly revealing about the content of Bardock's wish that isn't already explored in Minus/Broly (and conveyed vastly better there); all it ultimately amounts to is a retcon for the sake of having one. It's poorly thought out.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Fri May 13, 2022 10:00 am

So it wasn't just a coincidence. :o

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Fri May 13, 2022 10:37 am

Oh, it's a meta thing. Dragon Ball is the progenitor of the fictional character Son Gokuu and now within the story they are literally what sustained him. First they gave him the ability to make wild decisions as a back-up plan and now they literally continual to provide him 'life' like the title and concept does in the real world for the fictional character. Very smart idea.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri May 13, 2022 10:48 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:28 am Well, I guess you can tie this wish with some elements of the original manga, like Roshi even back in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai talking about how the Dragon Balls were what made Goku who he is today (before that larger context even existed, kind of giving greater meaning to it).

This can be used as explanations for some plot devices or writing conveniences like Goku surviving King Piccolo and Tao Pai Pai. You could even argue that in the larger scope of the wish, Goku surviving the Planet Vegeta explosion and the King Piccolo / Tao Pai Pai situation would be the only times the wish could have had any effect on Goku's survival, which doesn't take away from his achievements nor his active effort and learning during his journey (the wish did not win the battles for him, nor did he give him strength). You can also just chalk this up to Goku himself being the one who firstly affected Bardock, which in turn affected him back (with the trend of him changing people around him, even without the intention). And I think thematically, the final scene of the original manga's last battle with Goku thanking the Dragon Balls and being aided precisely by a wish sounds more poetic now.

But with that said....this wish wasn't necessary at all. I don't see the point of this plot point, even though I don't think it retroactively alters Goku's story as dramatically as some are thinking. But I would much rather have that fact remain ambiguous and serve only as a sweet moment of Bardock wishing his sons the best rather than something like that. It's just something that didn't need to exist and I understand people getting upset about it.
This is p much how I feel on this whole thing as an extrapolation on the whole Minus stuff
OLKv3 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:54 am Goku won all of his fights 1v1 as a kid, now possibly thanks to that wish
Moment he reaches adulthood and that wish wears off, Goku gets bopped in every major battle.
Killed facing Raditz, so his first post wish battle he dies
Vegeta beats the man into a cripple, needs to be saved
Gets his body stolen by Ginyu. Needs the homies to jump in and save him against Freeza
Gets a heart attack, needs a future homie to save him
Dies against Cell
Needs the homies to help him against Boo

Damn my guy looking bad here
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Fri May 13, 2022 11:08 am

Liquir wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:00 am So it wasn't just a coincidence. :o
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri May 13, 2022 11:16 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:00 amIt doesn't look like it was the case. The flashback seems to cover a larger períod of time since we see panels of Bardock and Gine living their regular lifes (also with Raditz), Bardock's tail is back and the Goku looks bigger when he was sent to Earth.
Yeah, I think that's the case. I'm hoping it is, anyway. Well, I certainly wouldn't mind a little "slice of life" with Bardock and Gine! :D
Liquir wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:00 am So it wasn't just a coincidence. :o
Yeah, someone should make a compilation of all the moments where Goku should have died, but didn't. Now we know why! It should be fun seeing all those moments in a different way. Fun to me anyway. :)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Fri May 13, 2022 11:26 am

Unexplained circumstance in stories that help to elevate themes be dammed. We need to over explain EVERYTHING.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri May 13, 2022 11:45 am

The fact that people are less concerned with Bardock's gesture and more concerned with how that how this affects the sacred canon of DB lore probably speaks to something. The apparent wish does not diminish Goku's struggles, hard work, or any part of his journey. Goku deserved to live on from his dangerous moments regardless of the Dragon Balls. Living was the bare minimum, and his Goku Way continued after the wish seems to have worn off.
Cipher wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:30 am but there were also probably less divisive ways to achieve the same effect.
I think controversial DB is best DB. We know it's done on purpose, and it's part of what gives the series its edge. In this particular case, it is even acknowledged by Vegeta taking the voice of the audience.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri May 13, 2022 12:14 pm

They need to just take away Toyotaro's pen at this point, my god.

This nigga is ASS.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri May 13, 2022 12:40 pm

It's one of those retcons that wasn't necessary and offers to explain something that never needed an explanation. I think it's funny there's now an in-universe explanation for Goku's luck early on in the series though. We all assumed it was your standard main character plot armor allowing him to survive all these close encounters but now it's magic plot armor that ties into what the series is named after. I'm not sure what to think of it since it's probably the type of retcon that's mentioned once and never brought up again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri May 13, 2022 1:42 pm

Do you think Saiyans also consider the age of eighteen to be when they reach adulthood?

If so, the wish lasted until AGE 755 to be precise. That's when Goku was eighteen (unless you place his birth year in AGE 736) and that's one year before the 23rd tournament, so Goku could have died against Piccolo, as there would be no protection by that point in time.
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