Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Sat May 21, 2022 12:23 am

Seekeroftruth wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:52 am
Xeogran wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:35 pm Ultra Instinct didn't felt like Ultra Instinct to me. I'm just not used to the white-haired Goku showing all these emotions, as if he was still fighting in base. I thought the form was supposed to be calm and collected but now it's just.. a literal recolor.
Exactly. No where in this chapter did UI show any of its defensive or automatic properties.
He was continually dodging Gas to the point Gas got annoyed and finally hit him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Sat May 21, 2022 2:47 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:22 am
Jinto wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:30 pmIt was not the wish that made Goku train everyday or gain strength or travel or have friend.
It was. If it was possible for Goku to train every day, to gain strength, to travel or to have friends is because he was alive. He was alive because of a wish. Now, you can make an argument that the amount of strength he got during his trainings is thanks to his own effort, and you would be correct. Goku's efforts is all thanks to himself, but from a larger scope, it also takes Bardock's signature at the end of the day, because Goku was alive to make all of that possible in the first place.

I don't know if this is a good comparison/analogy, but hopefully it makes things clearer:

You studied hard and you got a nice score in that school exam. The effort of studying hard and getting a nice score is all thanks to you, but you only got to study hard and got a nice score because your parents enrolled you in that school in the first place. See? The merit is yours but it was only possible because someone else made your merit possible.


My point was that the wish doesn't invalidate his effort like some suggest nor made him "special" (that's a dumb critique since all MC are special but let's not go there), it just made sure he was alive until he was adult or he reached a point where he was stronger than Monaito and surpass the power of the wish.
Goku's effort were all conscious action and his choice hence making the wish inconsequential on the value taught by Dragon Ball.

This is different from Naruto where his entire growth and relationship with sasuke was revealed to be fated all along thus undermining the value of his effort.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am

84 thoughts:

Said all I have to say about the wish, which is that it's unobtrusive at worst, a minor positive as a later recontextualization at best. I admire the willingness to add it at all on the part of Toyotaro and Toriyama, as it feels like Super's being less reverential toward the original run.

Good: The fighting is a lot of fun. I've been waiting for a sustained two-on-one against a much stronger opponent for a while, and wasn't sure we'd ever get it aside from the brief skirmish with Jiren. There isn't a lot of elaborate choreography compared to previous chapters of the arc, but, much like Toriyama's later action, there's enough to give you an idea of the fight--more than the sum of its panels. A nice change. Don't recall any panels feeling like they were in the way of the speed either, as is sometimes Toyotaro's pitfall even during action that's quite successful otherwise.

It feels like we're in the climax. More than any previous Super arc, and even maybe the Boo arc, this really feels like a martial-arts drama. For better or worse, it would seem, for some fans. The story and scope are smaller and more personal, and more tied to martial-arts growth. Gas' role as the heavy is sufficient. Its pacing and structure aren't what I was expecting, but I've warmed to it and find it a welcome change after the "best-of" overly-reverent-to-DB beats that made up Moro.

Iffy: There's some stinger text at the end of the chapter in V-Jump reading "Not for atonement or vengeance, but the desire to win!" that accidentally does a better job with the chapter/arc's themes than the in-scene dialogue itself. It really feels like everything was building up to shedding both Vegeta's oversized personal guilt for the Saiyan's and Goku's struggles with the emptiness necessary for UI in favor of that personal drive and following through on personal whims and initiatives. That's what Bardock could be used to show them--and ultimately, "It's DB, so get stupid!" is a fine theme for the series, in line with the Boo arc landing on the overly carefree and even careless Goku as its hero--but the scene fumbles at the finish line by tying its rhetoric to peoples/species/races, which doesn't really feel great in regard to the Saiyans with basically any real-world parallel. It comes dangerously close to lionizing them. It's fine to respect what Bardock shows them about the potential in bad people to do good, or the reality of individuals with their own emotional lives existing in all settings and races/nations/etc., and even have that come through in an affecting way for Goku, but we could sure do with another reminder that Gine and Bardock are totally in hell, and that the lessons taken from Bardock as a Saiyan don't need to be in the name of Saiyans. Goku and Vegeta can respect their background and what it's given them without lionizing the behavior or the Saiyans, and the chapter in execution comes dangerously close to losing track of that, and even skirting some rhetoric used in real-life to mobilize nationalist movements. I don't think that was the intent, but the execution was clumsy enough so that it didn't matter. I've never had to raise my eyebrow at DB like that before. I think some editorial suggestions so that it landed up closer to that ending text and more clear of the race/people linkage might have been in order.

To be clear, I get that the intent was to link Goku and Vegeta and Granolah all together and to champion their individual motives instead of distracting burdens, but I don't feel it went about that in the best way.
TKA wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:50 am
Seekeroftruth wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:52 amExactly. No where in this chapter did UI show any of its defensive or automatic properties.
I would suggest you reread the Jiren fight. Jiren was able to land hits on Ultra Instinct. He was also able to match its attacks until it wore off and he claimed the advantage.

It's not an auto-win.
Yeah, I'm not sure where this revisionist fan history in regard to Ultra Instinct has come from, as it was never implied to be invincible in either medium of Super. Goku eats plenty of blows in the anime, and Jiren literally catches and tosses him in its debut chapter in the manga.

It can still be beaten by opponents sufficiently stronger and faster than the user. It's an edge; not full, guaranteed protection.

For this chapter in particular, all of its usual movement quirks are still portrayed. Toyotaro has Goku's limbs leading him in most movements, and draws parts of Goku's body not involved in a particular movement in relaxed positions, just as he's used (effectively) to signal its use in all previous appearances.

On the art, I have to second comments above that the chapter makes really good use of black-and-white. Unusually (but delightfully) so for the series. In general Toyotaro's gotten steadily smarter about his choices with blacks and screentone. Blacks on Vegeta, whites on Goku, and screentone on Gas works well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 21, 2022 4:49 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:22 am
Jinto wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:30 pmIt was not the wish that made Goku train everyday or gain strength or travel or have friend.
It was. If it was possible for Goku to train every day, to gain strength, to travel or to have friends is because he was alive. He was alive because of a wish. Now, you can make an argument that the amount of strength he got during his trainings is thanks to his own effort, and you would be correct. Goku's efforts is all thanks to himself, but from a larger scope, it also takes Bardock's signature at the end of the day, because Goku was alive to make all of that possible in the first place.

I don't know if this is a good comparison/analogy, but hopefully it makes things clearer:

You studied hard and you got a nice score in that school exam. The effort of studying hard and getting a nice score is all thanks to you, but you only got to study hard and got a nice score because your parents enrolled you in that school in the first place. See? The merit is yours but it was only possible because someone else made your merit possible.
It's an alright analogy, but I'd say that already was the case with the introduction of Minus than the wish. And well, by this point into the nitty gritty is just actively looking for how Goku's efforts can be undermined on paper/theoretically, rather than if they actually/really were.
Cipher wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am 84 thoughts:
TKA wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:50 am
Seekeroftruth wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:52 amExactly. No where in this chapter did UI show any of its defensive or automatic properties.
I would suggest you reread the Jiren fight. Jiren was able to land hits on Ultra Instinct. He was also able to match its attacks until it wore off and he claimed the advantage.

It's not an auto-win.
Yeah, I'm not sure where this revisionist fan history in regard to Ultra Instinct has come from, as it was never implied to be invincible in either medium of Super. Goku eats plenty of blows in the anime, and Jiren literally catches and tosses him in its debut chapter in the manga.

It can still be beaten by opponents sufficiently stronger and faster than the user. It's an edge; not full, guaranteed protection.

For this chapter in particular, all of its usual movement quirks are still portrayed. Toyotaro has Goku's limbs leading him in most movements, and draws parts of Goku's body not involved in a particular movement in relaxed positions, just as he's used (effectively) to signal its use in all previous appearances.

On the art, I have to second comments above that the chapter makes really good use of black-and-white. Unusually (but delightfully) so for the series. In general Toyotaro's gotten steadily smarter about his choices with blacks and screentone. Blacks on Vegeta, whites on Goku, and screentone on Gas works well.
I'd hazard that it's because UI throughout ToP, Moro, and Granolah have all made the point that UI allows one to take on any opponent, the body moves so that attacks can't land, and that it should have no weaknesses/openings, so some people would take those and thus perceive UI as it being/should be invincible. Plus, there's not a lot, if any of the traditionally depicted UI dodging with the fancy dodging silhouettes (which is what people mainly associate with UI to illustrate "fight good", since it's basically like any other form/power boost otherwise).
Cipher wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am
Iffy: There's some stinger text at the end of the chapter in V-Jump reading "Not for atonement or vengeance, but the desire to win!" that accidentally does a better job with the chapter/arc's themes than the in-scene dialogue itself. It really feels like everything was building up to shedding both Vegeta's oversized personal guilt for the Saiyan's and Goku's struggles with the emptiness necessary for UI in favor of that personal drive and following through on personal whims and initiatives. That's what Bardock could be used to show them--and ultimately, "It's DB, so get stupid!" is a fine theme for the series, in line with the Boo arc landing on the overly carefree and even careless Goku as its hero--but the scene fumbles at the finish line by tying its rhetoric to peoples/species/races, which doesn't really feel great in regard to the Saiyans with basically any real-world parallel. It comes dangerously close to lionizing them. It's fine to respect what Bardock shows them about the potential in bad people to do good, or the reality of individuals with their own emotional lives existing in all settings and races/nations/etc., and even have that come through in an affecting way for Goku, but we could sure do with another reminder that Gine and Bardock are totally in hell, and that the lessons taken from Bardock as a Saiyan don't need to be in the name of Saiyans. Goku and Vegeta can respect their background and what it's given them without lionizing the behavior or the Saiyans, and the chapter in execution comes dangerously close to losing track of that, and even skirting some rhetoric used in real-life to mobilize nationalist movements. I don't think that was the intent, but the execution was clumsy enough so that it didn't matter. I've never had to raise my eyebrow at DB like that before. I think some editorial suggestions so that it landed up closer to that ending text and more clear of the race/people linkage might have been in order.

To be clear, I get that the intent was to link Goku and Vegeta and Granolah all together and to champion their individual motives instead of distracting burdens, but I don't feel it went about that in the best way.
Hmm, I've seen some bring up this on social media, and it is indeed something valid to think about at least. You're right in that the intent was to link Goku and Vegeta and Granolah all together and to champion their individual motives instead of distracting burdens. The way I did see it is as they're taking the core/pure attributes about Saiyans as a warrior race that are worth taking pride in (bodies being genetically built for battle, never running away, growing stronger as one fights, fighting to survive/win at all costs, yadda yadda) while divesting from/not being shackled by the sins of the race (in which all who are dead, except 3 pure-blooded guys who are pretty decent people), akin to people championing the power/virtues of the human spirit and whatnot in spite of humanity also being capable of doing bad things (though yes, it can admittedly be read as veering on an unintentionally treacherous edge). As I said earlier, it seems more like an extension of what Nagamine talked about "pure Saiyans" being "beautiful" and "invigorating" in Broly as "the story of the Saiyans' rebirth", which was what drove the movie's ending of Goku telling Broly to call him by his Saiyan name despite supposedly having already accepted himself as a Saiyan on Namek (but of course, one's acceptance or agreement of this Nagamine stuff may vary).
Last edited by Shorty GZ2 on Sat May 21, 2022 5:28 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat May 21, 2022 5:19 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:49 am Hmm, I've seen some bring up this on social media, and it is indeed something valid to think about at least. The way I did see it is as they're taking the core/pure attributes about Saiyans as a warrior race that are worth taking pride in (bodies being genetically built for battle, never running away, growing stronger as one fights, fighting to survive/win at all costs, yadda yadda) while divesting from/not being shackled by the sins of the race (in which all who are dead, except 3 pure-blooded guys who are pretty decent people), akin to people championing the power of the human spirit and whatnot (though yes, it can admittedly read off as veering on an unintentionally treacherous edge). As I said earlier, it seems more like an extension of what Nagamine talked about "pure Saiyans" being "beautiful" and "invigorating" in Broly as "the story of the Saiyans' rebirth", which was what drove the movie's ending of Goku telling Broly to call him by his Saiyan name despite supposedly having already accepted himself as a Saiyan on Namek (but of course, one's acceptance/agreement of this Nagamine stuff may vary).
I think Goku embracing his history and the distinct advantages it's given him is also warranted and fertile ground, and something the series has been focused on since at least Broly, but I think you always need to be very careful with doing that--so that it's clear the intent is to acknowledge the advantages and parts worth keeping, while condemning those not. This scene lost sight of the latter, and it really didn't need to extend itself so broadly past the individual level in the first place.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 21, 2022 5:27 am

Cipher wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 5:19 am
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:49 am Hmm, I've seen some bring up this on social media, and it is indeed something valid to think about at least. The way I did see it is as they're taking the core/pure attributes about Saiyans as a warrior race that are worth taking pride in (bodies being genetically built for battle, never running away, growing stronger as one fights, fighting to survive/win at all costs, yadda yadda) while divesting from/not being shackled by the sins of the race (in which all who are dead, except 3 pure-blooded guys who are pretty decent people), akin to people championing the power of the human spirit and whatnot (though yes, it can admittedly read off as veering on an unintentionally treacherous edge). As I said earlier, it seems more like an extension of what Nagamine talked about "pure Saiyans" being "beautiful" and "invigorating" in Broly as "the story of the Saiyans' rebirth", which was what drove the movie's ending of Goku telling Broly to call him by his Saiyan name despite supposedly having already accepted himself as a Saiyan on Namek (but of course, one's acceptance/agreement of this Nagamine stuff may vary).
I think Goku embracing his history and the distinct advantages it's given him is also warranted and fertile ground, and something the series has been focused on since at least Broly, but I think you always need to be very careful with doing that--so that it's clear the intent is to acknowledge the advantages and parts worth keeping, while condemning those not. This scene lost sight of the latter, and it really didn't need to extend itself so broadly past the individual level in the first place.
In which, I do agree with you that the lessons from Bardock as a Saiyan by Goku and Vegeta can be taken without lionising Saiyans/while not being in the name of them, though personally, I think it just about leaps over it by having Goku/Vegeta reject wearing Bardock's Saiyan armor (luckily in time before Gas shows up) and instead they go out to face Gas in their Boo arc fits (which is a particular choice for Vegeta considering he forgoes Saiyan armour entirely again).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat May 21, 2022 6:24 am

Skar wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:52 pm
Lord Beerus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:32 pmSo with Dragon Ball Minus brutally kneecapping several themes in the second half of the story and Dragon Ball Super deciding to build on that shit foundation by retroactively recontextualising Goku's agency growing up, as well as the function of Goku's friends and mentors... I say with no hyperbole that Toriyama and Toyotaro, with the reintroduction of Bardock's character, have actively destroyed Goku's journey as a martial artist and all the themes that tie into it. This character assassination. There's no other of seeing it as anything but that. But hey, at least we now know that Goku was always The Special™ and The Chosen One®.
To be fair, I don't think the wish went that far. I definitely agree it was unnecessary and doesn't really add anything worthwhile to the story though. The wish only ensured Goku and Raditz survive until adulthood but not that they would become anything special since Raditz died a loser low class Saiyan. If Goku crash landed in the desert and grew up alone, the wish would've done it's job but he likely would've been killed by Raditz and not wished back.

There was still a lot of luck involved for Goku like hitting his head and happened to be found by one of the strongest people on Earth who also happened to have a dragonball that Bulma came looking for which led to Goku meeting his friends, Roshi, Kami, etc. It was thanks to all that luck and meeting those friends that there were people to resurrect him after the wish was no longer in effect.
Raditz may have died as a low-class Saiyan, but at the time of his introduction in the Saiyan arc, he wasn't just the most powerful antagonist yet, he was the strongest character in all of Dragon Ball. So for all intents and purposes, Raditz still benefited immensely from that wish.

As for Goku, the circumstances for him becoming as powerful as he would are undeniably influenced by the wish Bardock makes as well. If it takes Goku losing his memory for him to "grow up to be a big strong man (JPN)"/"end up thriving (ENG)", then the cosmic forces of the Dragon Balls are going to create those circumstances.

This is the problem with the wish Bardock makes -- it negatively recontextualises EVERYTHING about Goku's mental and physical growth by removing any sense of organic development and replacing it with literal plot armour. Goku was destined to become this well-rounded as a martial artist because a literal plot device dictated that for it to be the case.

Fuck that shit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 21, 2022 6:55 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:32 pm Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 84:

(c-ranting about Bardock/the wish/the characters/the fighting)

Overall thoughts... Fuck. This. Arc.
Cipher wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am 84 thoughts:

Said all I have to say about the wish, which is that it's unobtrusive at worst, a minor positive as a later recontextualization at best. I admire the willingness to add it at all on the part of Toyotaro and Toriyama, as it feels like Super's being less reverential toward the original run.
Lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat May 21, 2022 7:37 am

The wish is the extreme version of revealing Goku is a Saiyan, justifying his specialness compared to humans.
The difference was, it didn't take away Goku's efforts.

Tao Pai Pai got robbed. Maybe the symbolism of Goku being saved by the four star ball was foreshadowing, Toriyama was thinking decades ahead! :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Sat May 21, 2022 7:47 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:55 am
Lord Beerus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:32 pm Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 84:

(c-ranting about Bardock/the wish/the characters/the fighting)

Overall thoughts... Fuck. This. Arc.
Cipher wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am 84 thoughts:

Said all I have to say about the wish, which is that it's unobtrusive at worst, a minor positive as a later recontextualization at best. I admire the willingness to add it at all on the part of Toyotaro and Toriyama, as it feels like Super's being less reverential toward the original run.
Lol
Sheesh, if you want to argue against someone's point, make your own rebuttal instead of lazily quoting someone else.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat May 21, 2022 8:40 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:55 am
Lord Beerus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:32 pm Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 84:

(c-ranting about Bardock/the wish/the characters/the fighting)

Overall thoughts... Fuck. This. Arc.
Cipher wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am 84 thoughts:

Said all I have to say about the wish, which is that it's unobtrusive at worst, a minor positive as a later recontextualization at best. I admire the willingness to add it at all on the part of Toyotaro and Toriyama, as it feels like Super's being less reverential toward the original run.
Lol
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but Shorty GZ2, if you feel at times that you have nothing of substance to contribute, don't bother saying anything.

A response like this adds nothing to the discussion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 21, 2022 8:48 am

What I was trying to illustrate was how these 2 responses to the wish are so vastly different to each other in feeling and length that it's funny in a sense. There's no argument being made here lol (if you want to know what I do think of the wish, I don't really think/have much keenness for it, but it is what it is & if it sticks, then just take it as it is or just ignore it like how Minus gets treated by everyone individually).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Sat May 21, 2022 9:00 am

One thing that gets me confused about this arc is how the character development for Goku is handled, Vegeta's is done pretty well and I don't have much issue with it, but Goku's just irks me the wrong way. Now personally I have never wrote a single story in my life, but I always thought that when it comes down to character development there is supposed to be a gradual progression. However in this arc Goku suddenly realises that he has no faith in his power? I honestly never knew that was a weakness of his, yeah he sometimes conceded defeat but those were times where it was pretty obvious he had no chance of winning i.e Cell Games. To me this feels like Toriyama or Toyotarou are just haphazardly throwing development at Goku to give him some spotlight alongside Vegeta who is doing a lot of heavy lifting for this arc's narrative.

Also with the wish thing, I am guilty of being a bit too overreactive to it but thinking about it I suggest we all actually wait and see what is done with it before going all ape shit. Personally I don't have much faith, but hey who knows, it all might come together in the end somehow, I doubt it will but there is that sliver of a chance.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sat May 21, 2022 9:08 am

OrangeBanana wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:00 am Personally I don't have much faith, but hey who knows, it all might come together in the end somehow, I doubt it will but there is that sliver of a chance.
If Monaito at the end reveals "I never made that wish in the first place haha", then it will still come as forced (or damage control since Toyo clearly browses the 'net). He had the chance to leave it ambigious but pushed forward with the idea after all, so shrug.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 21, 2022 9:28 am

I don't think Toyotaro has any full confidence or jurisdiction on his own to proceed ahead with any dialogue or writing decisions regarding something as potentially hugely implicating as the wish (inc. a possible reveal of a bait-&-switch by the arc's end, or it becoming less ambiguous this chapter compared to the previous) without Toriyama's go-ahead. Man can't even freely put in a new form like Ultra Ego for Vegeta without getting the Tori greenlight. At the very least, Vegeta continues to basically sardonically voice out loud whatever a negative/critical fan might be taking away from these New Bardock developments ("Obviously (Goku's) kindness runs in the family", "Bardock was a lower class so presumably Gas was weak", "It's unfair that a wish protected Goku & Raditz, they are pampered & spoiled"), so I do assume they have some idea of how these things will be received.
OrangeBanana wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:00 am One thing that gets me confused about this arc is how the character development for Goku is handled, Vegeta's is done pretty well and I don't have much issue with it, but Goku's just irks me the wrong way. Now personally I have never wrote a single story in my life, but I always thought that when it comes down to character development there is supposed to be a gradual progression. However in this arc Goku suddenly realises that he has no faith in his power? I honestly never knew that was a weakness of his, yeah he sometimes conceded defeat but those were times where it was pretty obvious he had no chance of winning i.e Cell Games. To me this feels like Toriyama or Toyotarou are just haphazardly throwing development at Goku to give him some spotlight alongside Vegeta who is doing a lot of heavy lifting for this arc's narrative.
He's had this sort of conflict throughline running since at least the ToP when he couldn't overcome the unbreakable wall of Jiren with his own (pure) power & when he unlocked perfected UI but couldn't hold onto it for long, [insert Broly movie here], then the Moro arc where he needed the shock of Merus's sacrifice to get back into UI & when his lapses into human judgement in UI from an Angel mindset lead to the situation escalating even more drastically + doubting himself being able to take down Planet Moro. Now in this arc, he's been struggling with sharpening/maintaining UI (now into all his forms instead of a form) even further like an Angel, and now this Bardock stuff/revelation has shook him a bit on his perception of his own heritage/Saiyans as a whole.

Though let it be known that you are indeed right and this really is just Tori/Toyo haphazardly throwing development at Goku to give him some spotlight alongside Vegeta who is doing a lot of heavy lifting for DBS's narrative, since he was basically a complete fully-formed, self-assured character by the end of Boo or EOZ but the story needs to keep going with him in the main role lmao
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sat May 21, 2022 9:36 am

So, i leave for a year to let the story settle and do it's thing, but apparently dragon ball is broken keeps popping up in my youtube recommendations. so i check the manga, oh toriyama did a toriyama but this time he messed with kid goku, thats sacred ground apparently as opposed to the saiyan saga which just jotted down ever goku quirk to his heritage.

Though, it is amusing how the man who is famous for being forgetful, will not forget the one thing people want him to the most.

Now seriously, i get the anger though, it's much more unique when goku wasn't special and his dad was an asshole. modern shonen does that a lot and gets a ton of praise for it, looking at you god luffy but really, this seems to be more of a hardcore vs casual debate because man some people have a weird understanding on why goku is beloved and remains so. I could be wrong but not many people care about why goku is but what he is.

not to mention, the wish is too damn ambiguous to start throwing tantrums, growing up well can mean anything because raditz and goku's lives are far too different, and this will not get explained in depth. all vegeta says that it kept him alive which the dragon balls already accomplished.

i think the real issue is just why is it here? to give vegeta and goku a link to the main antagonist?
Last edited by Totamo on Sat May 21, 2022 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat May 21, 2022 9:54 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:24 amRaditz may have died as a low-class Saiyan, but at the time of his introduction in the Saiyan arc, he wasn't just the most powerful antagonist yet, he was the strongest character in all of Dragon Ball. So for all intents and purposes, Raditz still benefited immensely from that wish.

As for Goku, the circumstances for him becoming as powerful as he would are undeniably influenced by the wish Bardock makes as well. If it takes Goku losing his memory for him to "grow up to be a big strong man (JPN)"/"end up thriving (ENG)", then the cosmic forces of the Dragon Balls are going to create those circumstances.

This is the problem with the wish Bardock makes -- it negatively recontextualises EVERYTHING about Goku's mental and physical growth by removing any sense of organic development and replacing it with literal plot armour. Goku was destined to become this well-rounded as a martial artist because a literal plot device dictated that for it to be the case.

Fuck that shit.
That's true since we don't know what would've happened to Goku if the wish wasn't made. What I meant about Raditz is that the wish didn't make him special in the grand scheme of things. He was strong by Earth standards but only slightly above the average nameless Freeza soldier. I guess it's vague enough that maybe not all of their luck was attributed to the wish. Raditz survived every mission with Nappa and Vegeta for 20 something years. They were either really weak planets or the wish protected him each time. It would definitely make it worse if the story is implying every bit of luck they've had until adulthood was due to the wish. For example, if Goku not hitting his head would mean that Grandpa Gohan or another one of Earth's strongest like Tao or Kami had to put him down because he was too dangerous.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sat May 21, 2022 10:26 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:24 am
Skar wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:52 pm
Lord Beerus wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:32 pmSo with Dragon Ball Minus brutally kneecapping several themes in the second half of the story and Dragon Ball Super deciding to build on that shit foundation by retroactively recontextualising Goku's agency growing up, as well as the function of Goku's friends and mentors... I say with no hyperbole that Toriyama and Toyotaro, with the reintroduction of Bardock's character, have actively destroyed Goku's journey as a martial artist and all the themes that tie into it. This character assassination. There's no other of seeing it as anything but that. But hey, at least we now know that Goku was always The Special™ and The Chosen One®.
To be fair, I don't think the wish went that far. I definitely agree it was unnecessary and doesn't really add anything worthwhile to the story though. The wish only ensured Goku and Raditz survive until adulthood but not that they would become anything special since Raditz died a loser low class Saiyan. If Goku crash landed in the desert and grew up alone, the wish would've done it's job but he likely would've been killed by Raditz and not wished back.

There was still a lot of luck involved for Goku like hitting his head and happened to be found by one of the strongest people on Earth who also happened to have a dragonball that Bulma came looking for which led to Goku meeting his friends, Roshi, Kami, etc. It was thanks to all that luck and meeting those friends that there were people to resurrect him after the wish was no longer in effect.
Raditz may have died as a low-class Saiyan, but at the time of his introduction in the Saiyan arc, he wasn't just the most powerful antagonist yet, he was the strongest character in all of Dragon Ball. So for all intents and purposes, Raditz still benefited immensely from that wish.

As for Goku, the circumstances for him becoming as powerful as he would are undeniably influenced by the wish Bardock makes as well. If it takes Goku losing his memory for him to "grow up to be a big strong man (JPN)"/"end up thriving (ENG)", then the cosmic forces of the Dragon Balls are going to create those circumstances.

This is the problem with the wish Bardock makes -- it negatively recontextualises EVERYTHING about Goku's mental and physical growth by removing any sense of organic development and replacing it with literal plot armour. Goku was destined to become this well-rounded as a martial artist because a literal plot device dictated that for it to be the case.

Fuck that shit.
?

the purpose of raditz was to show how weak goku was and how strong vegeta and nappa were. We know this even in universe when raditz straight up says Earth was a weak planet which it always has been and goku was barely the strongest person on it. A big strong man, that ain't. We also know raditz was weak because freeza had several pe....THEY COULD LITERALLY GROW HIM!

The wish is stupid but mostly because it's vague. It didn't build a universe to fit the their needs. in dragon ball, the most obvious answer is usually the most correct. it just got them off the planet , we even see a flashblack to goku as a baby, vegeta just says he didn't die.

or just as likely, the wish is poorly thought out and what it was suppose to do it can't so its a plothole and put it in the corner with all the other plotholes.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Sat May 21, 2022 10:52 am

I am actually surprised that everyone is so riled over such a vague and abstract wish… could’ve been anything.
Like just ensure that Raditz and Goku survive destruction of planet Vegeta and end up somewhere where they have potential to live.

I don’t believe that the wish stopped working as they grew up, because even 40 years old, Goku is still Bardock’s kid literally.
My thoughts are, that if the wish really did came to be, it just gave Goku and Raditz a chance to thrive, hence Goku not having some plot armor like many claim, but by training and willpower, he acomplished all of the feats alone. He was given a chance to do so instead of dying with rest of the Saiyans.

It’s actually pretty nice wish coming from a parent and it might mean anything, but definitely not that Goku and Raditz are going to be invincible until they reach some age, as technically, they are and will be Bardock’s children till they die.
By that logic, Goku should be invincible nonstop :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat May 21, 2022 10:53 am

The wish (if true) is gross because it redefines what Goku represents until he's "grown up". Prophecy or no prophecy, Goku finding solutions through a mix of his own efforts with sheer happenstance and coincidence is a part of his character; DB's universe and worldview is fundamentally chaotic, and its main protagonist is all about chaotic individualism over orderly determinism and collectivism. To arbitrarily reduce the childhood part of it to what's basically a dragon god shoving a silver spoon in his mouth changes what the series thematically conveys, at least retroactively. While I'm sure there are plenty of worse ways you can write this kind of thing, it begs its own question as to why it needed to be introduced at all.

Look. I support authors who take risks, and I love and appreciate Toriyama's tendency to recontextualize the series without giving one iota about the fanbase as much as the next guy, but he's usually good at making it feel substantial in some way. This change, like everything else in this chapter, adds nothing and potentially diminishes a lot. Can't get behind it.
Cipher wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am Yeah, I'm not sure where this revisionist fan history in regard to Ultra Instinct has come from, as it was never implied to be invincible in either medium of Super. Goku eats plenty of blows in the anime, and Jiren literally catches and tosses him in its debut chapter in the manga.
If we take the manga at its word, it directly states on several occasions throughout the past three arcs that a fully-mastered UI is unstoppable, can overcome any threat, has no weakness, etc., and Goku has specifically attributed any failings with this technique to his lack of mastery/precision as recently as the current arc. I wouldn't call that "revisionist" per se.

With that said, it's true that it's not an auto-win for Goku -- nor is it an auto-win for Whis, who said that the Grand Priest's precision over UI is even greater than his own. It's a move that we'll probably never see Goku fully perfect, since that would erase all tension in the series.
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