Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sat May 21, 2022 11:05 am

The fact that we're even having this conversation proves just how misguided that wish absolutely is. You're dead on that it is at best, pointless, and at worst completely diminishes the themes of the original series. When people have to form their own head-canon to mitigate the potential bullshit of that story choice, it speaks volumes of how awful that story beat is. It's truly unreal.

And I'm not even angry, I"m just baffled that this happened.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat May 21, 2022 12:33 pm

Cipher wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:40 am Yeah, I'm not sure where this revisionist fan history in regard to Ultra Instinct has come from, as it was never implied to be invincible in either medium of Super. Goku eats plenty of blows in the anime, and Jiren literally catches and tosses him in its debut chapter in the manga.

It can still be beaten by opponents sufficiently stronger and faster than the user. It's an edge; not full, guaranteed protection.
I think it speaks about how well the manga has stuck with the concepts of Ultra Instinct that everytime Goku is not beating the opponent in this state, people claim that he's "nerfed" or that UI didn't feel like UI. The technique still have that "unbeatable" aura (although people really need to let go of the notion that Goku can't be touched or defeated in this form) and different flavor to it that you can distinct from any other form and this chapter is no different (especially being used alongside a completely opposite technique, Ultra Ego, and showing again how different both are).

I think the only time UI didn't feel like UI to me was in the fight against Moro (UI sign). The technique was just treated as a speed boost to avoid Moro's technique, and Goku yelling and powering up in that way contrasted with the way it was shown in ToP

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat May 21, 2022 12:45 pm

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:49 amIt's an alright analogy, but I'd say that already was the case with the introduction of Minus than the wish.
Yeah, but the wish makes Bardock's signature appear throughout Dragon Ball. Without the wish, Bardock would only be responsible for sending Goku to Earth, whatever happens after that wouldn't have much to do with him, at least not directly, the way the wish does.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat May 21, 2022 12:55 pm

Skar wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:54 amThat's true since we don't know what would've happened to Goku if the wish wasn't made. What I meant about Raditz is that the wish didn't make him special in the grand scheme of things. He was strong by Earth standards but only slightly above the average nameless Freeza soldier. I guess it's vague enough that maybe not all of their luck was attributed to the wish. Raditz survived every mission with Nappa and Vegeta for 20 something years. They were either really weak planets or the wish protected him each time. It would definitely make it worse if the story is implying every bit of luck they've had until adulthood was due to the wish. For example, if Goku not hitting his head would mean that Grandpa Gohan or another one of Earth's strongest like Tao or Kami had to put him down because he was too dangerous.
Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 when you take into consideration how strong the like Nappa and Vegeta are in comparison to Raditz when they're introduced later in the story. That doesn't take away from my initial point of how Bardock's wish severely weakens the narrative context of Raditz being a major threat from his initial introduction.

Raditz was a HUGE deal when he first debuted, especially considering how much he physically outmatched not just the main character (Goku) but the central antagonist from the arc preceding the Saiyan arc (Piccolo). Knowing the power Raditz obtained to establish the initial tension of the Saiyan arc came from a wish-granting dragon is just so fucking lame.
Totamo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 10:26 am the purpose of raditz was to show how weak goku was and how strong vegeta and nappa were. We know this even in universe when raditz straight up says Earth was a weak planet which it always has been and goku was barely the strongest person on it. A big strong man, that ain't. We also know raditz was weak because freeza had several pe....THEY COULD LITERALLY GROW HIM!

The wish is stupid but mostly because it's vague. It didn't build a universe to fit the their needs. in dragon ball, the most obvious answer is usually the most correct. it just got them off the planet , we even see a flashblack to goku as a baby, vegeta just says he didn't die.

or just as likely, the wish is poorly thought out and what it was suppose to do it can't so its a plothole and put it in the corner with all the other plotholes.
The purpose of Raditz was to establish that the Saiyans are really powerful. The gap in strength between Raditz and Goku (and Piccolo) doesn't diminish the gains Goku attained. Especially since the circumstances of Goku growing up on Earth are why he develops as the martial artist he does and becomes arguably the greatest martial artist in the universe later in life. Goku grows up to become stronger than literally God and Raditz becomes more powerful than both of them.

You can shift the goalposts all you want but that doesn't negate the fact that Raditz and Goku do grow up to become strong people.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat May 21, 2022 1:06 pm

OrangeBanana wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:00 am One thing that gets me confused about this arc is how the character development for Goku is handled, Vegeta's is done pretty well and I don't have much issue with it, but Goku's just irks me the wrong way. Now personally I have never wrote a single story in my life, but I always thought that when it comes down to character development there is supposed to be a gradual progression. However in this arc Goku suddenly realises that he has no faith in his power? I honestly never knew that was a weakness of his, yeah he sometimes conceded defeat but those were times where it was pretty obvious he had no chance of winning i.e Cell Games. To me this feels like Toriyama or Toyotarou are just haphazardly throwing development at Goku to give him some spotlight alongside Vegeta who is doing a lot of heavy lifting for this arc's narrative.
I thought this was pretty plainly illustrated, across his previous encounters with Gas and Granolah. He eats a shot from Granolah before Vegeta accuses him of being overly reliant on testing Ultra Instinct, then goes on to lose the fight. Gas accuses him of lacking Bardock's fire while he once again tries to tap into the technique. Whis insists that Goku has to find his own avenue for Ultra Instinct, and Goku notes having to remove himself from being caught up in his surroundings when first activating it at the ToP.

The calm and emotional distance required to successfully use Ultra Instinct across forms does not align with who Goku is/has been, and it's become a focus for him over simply being invested in fights this arc.

Not wanting to win has not been, and I don't think is ever implied to be, an existing fault of Goku's. But being so focused on Whis' version of Ultra Instinct that he's taken himself out of the moment has been--particularly in this arc, but also in the two before. When he's that focused on trying to empty his mind for UI, he isn't believing in his own power or focusing on winning his fights.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Krillin1994 » Sat May 21, 2022 1:10 pm

Whilst I don’t like the wish, everyone is stretching and saying it was active until he was an adult etc.

Is the implication not present that the thriving of them was merely surviving the destruction of planet Vegeta.

If that’s the case then I think it’s fine since it hasn’t taken away any agency of events Goku himself had agency over.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat May 21, 2022 1:29 pm

OrangeBanana wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:00 am However in this arc Goku suddenly realises that he has no faith in his power?
Whis calls it out at the end of the Moro arc:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat May 21, 2022 1:31 pm

Krillin1994 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:10 pm Is the implication not present that the thriving of them was merely surviving the destruction of planet Vegeta.
The Japanese line is pretty specific here: Bardock wishes for his boys to grow up healthy and strong, per Monaito's request.

The ambiguity, if any, lies more in actually seeing the wish be formally granted by Toronbo rather than its content in particular.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat May 21, 2022 2:08 pm

Goku finally realizing he didn't have total faith in his power, is in connection with him not really accepting his Saiyan nature. This is why Whis asks him what is he really [CH. 82]. Goku hasn't really owned his heritage or identity. How can he truly grow if he doesn't understand the makeup of his genetics? Bardock understood this, hence why he kept fighting until he passed his limits.

Vegeta finally realizes what Beerus was telling him. Stop holding on to the sins of the past of his people. Granolah, stop seeking revenge for your people; The Cerealians.

As far as Bardocks wish. Like I stated before. We should wait on the effects of it. So far all we know is that Goku was saved from Planet Vegeta's doom. I have a feeling being sent to a weak planet in earth, just so Goku could "thrive [Grow up healthy and strong]" will be the results of the wish. Which will not have any outside help into Goku's journey of achievements.

Now the highlight for me is Gas. I am so glad his title of the current universe strongest is actually holding up. He is handling both Goku/Vegeta at their best with no real pressure. He is really punking UI and Ego here. I gave a standing ovation. Battle power > your favorite tech. This is Dragonball.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Sat May 21, 2022 3:16 pm

For the people complaining about the wish: consider that your feelings are vocalized in this chapter by Vegeta, of all people, the bitterest, jobberingist, most notorious scrub in the entire Dragon World, and consider that if Vegeta's saying it, it might be good to take it with a grain of salt.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Sat May 21, 2022 3:49 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:16 pm For the people complaining about the wish: consider that your feelings are vocalized in this chapter by Vegeta, of all people, the bitterest, jobberingist, most notorious scrub in the entire Dragon World, and consider that if Vegeta's saying it, it might be good to take it with a grain of salt.
What does Vegeta's snobbery have to do with our criticisms? The story makes it clear that Bardock wished for his sons to thrive/grow up strong. If Vegeta's acknowledgement was positive, I still would have hated it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat May 21, 2022 5:43 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:55 pmObviously, hindsight is 20/20 when you take into consideration how strong the like Nappa and Vegeta are in comparison to Raditz when they're introduced later in the story. That doesn't take away from my initial point of how Bardock's wish severely weakens the narrative context of Raditz being a major threat from his initial introduction.

Raditz was a HUGE deal when he first debuted, especially considering how much he physically outmatched not just the main character (Goku) but the central antagonist from the arc preceding the Saiyan arc (Piccolo). Knowing the power Raditz obtained to establish the initial tension of the Saiyan arc came from a wish-granting dragon is just so fucking lame.
Yeah Raditz was the strongest they've faced at the time but the wish was revealed long after we learned Goku and Raditz were low class Saiyans their whole lives. Goku only went beyond a low class after he trained with King Kai and resurrected. I'm still not sure how the wish would've affected Raditz' power. His PL might've been a few hundred when we first see him in Minus since he was raised in 10g and might've only doubled in the 20 years or so since then. I suppose without the wish that he would've likely died sooner and wouldn't have survived long enough to meet Goku though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 21, 2022 6:09 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:49 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:16 pm For the people complaining about the wish: consider that your feelings are vocalized in this chapter by Vegeta, of all people, the bitterest, jobberingist, most notorious scrub in the entire Dragon World, and consider that if Vegeta's saying it, it might be good to take it with a grain of salt.
What does Vegeta's snobbery have to do with our criticisms? The story makes it clear that Bardock wished for his sons to thrive/grow up strong. If Vegeta's acknowledgement was positive, I still would have hated it.
As I said before, I'd say it's the sardonic (i.e. not exactly meant to be taken wholly seriously as 100% factual/the case) recognition or acknowledgement of it itself by Tori/Toyo through Vegeta, which has been the case for more than once throughout the arc.
Krillin1994 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:10 pm Whilst I don’t like the wish, everyone is stretching and saying it was active until he was an adult etc.

Is the implication not present that the thriving of them was merely surviving the destruction of planet Vegeta.

If that’s the case then I think it’s fine since it hasn’t taken away any agency of events Goku himself had agency over.
Fan TL version vs VIZ version
Image

Only a little bit of room for some interpretation or ambiguity there.

Image

A few differences in translation on this page too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sat May 21, 2022 7:10 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:55 pm
Skar wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:54 amThat's true since we don't know what would've happened to Goku if the wish wasn't made. What I meant about Raditz is that the wish didn't make him special in the grand scheme of things. He was strong by Earth standards but only slightly above the average nameless Freeza soldier. I guess it's vague enough that maybe not all of their luck was attributed to the wish. Raditz survived every mission with Nappa and Vegeta for 20 something years. They were either really weak planets or the wish protected him each time. It would definitely make it worse if the story is implying every bit of luck they've had until adulthood was due to the wish. For example, if Goku not hitting his head would mean that Grandpa Gohan or another one of Earth's strongest like Tao or Kami had to put him down because he was too dangerous.
Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 when you take into consideration how strong the like Nappa and Vegeta are in comparison to Raditz when they're introduced later in the story. That doesn't take away from my initial point of how Bardock's wish severely weakens the narrative context of Raditz being a major threat from his initial introduction.

Raditz was a HUGE deal when he first debuted, especially considering how much he physically outmatched not just the main character (Goku) but the central antagonist from the arc preceding the Saiyan arc (Piccolo). Knowing the power Raditz obtained to establish the initial tension of the Saiyan arc came from a wish-granting dragon is just so fucking lame.
Totamo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 10:26 am the purpose of raditz was to show how weak goku was and how strong vegeta and nappa were. We know this even in universe when raditz straight up says Earth was a weak planet which it always has been and goku was barely the strongest person on it. A big strong man, that ain't. We also know raditz was weak because freeza had several pe....THEY COULD LITERALLY GROW HIM!

The wish is stupid but mostly because it's vague. It didn't build a universe to fit the their needs. in dragon ball, the most obvious answer is usually the most correct. it just got them off the planet , we even see a flashblack to goku as a baby, vegeta just says he didn't die.

or just as likely, the wish is poorly thought out and what it was suppose to do it can't so its a plothole and put it in the corner with all the other plotholes.
The purpose of Raditz was to establish that the Saiyans are really powerful. The gap in strength between Raditz and Goku (and Piccolo) doesn't diminish the gains Goku attained. Especially since the circumstances of Goku growing up on Earth are why he develops as the martial artist he does and becomes arguably the greatest martial artist in the universe later in life. Goku grows up to become stronger than literally God and Raditz becomes more powerful than both of them.

You can shift the goalposts all you want but that doesn't negate the fact that Raditz and Goku do grow up to become strong people.
Diminish? No. It just put into perspective how far Goku had to go. Which is my whole point. You can't say this wish is responsible for Goku's early benefits when his brother's early benefits were far greater. You can't say that same as well because Goku's early benefits lead to him developing galaxy level benefits while his brother's develop into saibamen?

Is the dragon picking favorites? Because otherwise no one who is saying this wish is the doom and gloom is explaining that part to me. The answer, I assume, is that they can't or they don't know how .

I wasn't shifting goalpoasts, I was using hindsight and context of this very universe. how could you honestly say the 2 were strong knowing that Freeza, Beerus and Buu were out there? When universe 1-12 was out there?

I could be wrong and I will personally apologize to you if i am, but this feels like another everyone's overthinking a very simple situation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat May 21, 2022 9:04 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 2:08 pm Goku finally realizing he didn't have total faith in his power, is in connection with him not really accepting his Saiyan nature. This is why Whis asks him what is he really [CH. 82]. Goku hasn't really owned his heritage or identity. How can he truly grow if he doesn't understand the makeup of his genetics?
You're absolutely right that that's the intention. Here's my problem: Goku has acknowledged and understood all of that since the Freeza arc. He's been understanding it well beyond that arc.

If the manga's taking it further and spilling this message over to "Saiyan pride", then at worst, it's grossly mischaracterizing how often the original manga routinely shat on that concept. At best, it's a vague redefinition of the term to redundant characteristic effect; not once has Goku had any issue having (over)confidence in his power, including in UI, where it led to ruinous results against Moro and Granolah.

But again: I'll concur that's the general intention, uninteresting as it may be, rather than the interpretation it's in any way tied to how UI works on an emotional level. If the latter is the case, it undermines Goku's progression throughout Super in many ways and flatly contradicts the thrust of the two previous arcs. When Goku says he needs to be free from distractions in the Tournament of Power, that is categorically framed as a solution. When Goku pushes the technique too passionately against Moro in Sign, that's framed as a problem. I don't think anyone would have been disputing these things prior to the current arc.

Moreover, the contrast between Goku's calm, relaxed facial expressions in UI and Vegeta's crazed, emotive ones in UE is one of the few minor "positives" I'd attribute to this chapter, since it fits the polarization of those forms and their fighting mindsets (particularly how Whis characterizes the difference between them in RoF) quite nicely. No reason to throw that away too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 21, 2022 9:37 pm

Considering any one person who's explained "Saiyan pride" as it's been built up/presented in this arc (& how Namek is not necessarily strictly where it was reconciled, especially with Broly digging that up) and Goku lacking some degree of faith in his ability affecting him being able to push his perfected UI even further has been talked over, it's prob not worth trying to keep explaining. I will say that the adding (or 'retconning') of extra dimensions of personalisation to mastering an Angelic fighting technique as complex as UI that may seem slightly conflicting as to how one achieves/fine-tunes it seems fine to me, as I didn't mind how UI was presented here post-enlightenment. And also lol at the sarcastic apostrophes around "positives" (for this chapter), as if you really had to dig down deep to muster them as being such.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat May 21, 2022 10:41 pm

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:37 pm lol
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:37 pm not esp what you're willing to do lmao
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:15 am the jaded manga fan and the 2 manga riders
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:55 am Lol
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:02 pm lol
Shorty GZ2 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:37 pm And also lol
Gee, that sure is a lot of words just to say nothing while throwing a bunch of rudely defensive, dismissive potshots at people who don't share your opinion. It's one thing to do this once or twice, but since you've been doing it all thread (and several people have asked you to stop), I'm putting you on my ignore list so I don't have to be exposed to it anymore.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat May 21, 2022 11:24 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 10:41 pm Gee, that sure is a lot of words just to say nothing while throwing a bunch of rudely defensive, dismissive potshots at people who don't share your opinion. It's one thing to do this once or twice, but since you've been doing it all thread (and several people have asked you to stop), I'm putting you on my ignore list so I don't have to be exposed to it anymore.
Have fun melodramatically melting around hundreds of words down over the terrible, dying, bloated arc you're agonisingly forcing yourself to read in peace then 👋

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Sun May 22, 2022 2:36 am

Are we still going on with the wish ? Goodness... The wish ensured Goku and Raditz SURVIVAL, that's all ! Nothing more, nothing less.
Bardock didn't wish for Goku and Raditz to be the strongest or anything else, Goku's strength is not a fraud nor does it diminish his accomplishment.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 84 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun May 22, 2022 3:50 am

I actually really enjoyed this chapter. It seems like we reached the climax of the arc in which characters are beginning to have the self-realization that their own philosophies are inherently detrimental. There are still new lessons being learned regardless of how powerful they've become. In fact, what everyone has in common i.e Gas, Granolah, Goku, and Vegeta is that their pursuit of strength led them to completely go against their own selfish natural instincts. Granolah fought solely for revenge, Gas claims that he fights only for Elec as Elec is the only one who truly has meaning, Goku completely ignored his emotions to further Ultra Instinct, and Vegeta attempts to learn Destruction as a way to move on from the sins of the past.

interesting about this is the idea behind the meaning of strength being found in one's selfishness. Goku and Vegeta understood that their strength and pride came from their will to overcome their own limits and fight to overcome them. This was something that was properly conveyed in the Buu Saga where Vegeta realizes, through Goku, that true strength didn't come from fighting to protect. His greatest strength came from testing your own limits and surmounting them. This was one of the defining moments in the Buu Saga and it seems like Toyotaro is cracking down on that. This is in contrast to Gas, who fights solely for Elec rather than himself. I'm curious to see what lesson Gas will learn as he's pitted against the selfish Saiyan instincts of Goku and Vegeta.

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