Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
- SuppaSaiyanNerd
- Not-So-Newbie
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:34 am
Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
I took a break from Dragon Ball and especially the fandom for about a decade or so, so I recently ventured into both the Dragon Ball Super anime and manga completely blind. I found rediscovering the franchise exciting, and especially having an all-new series to explore made me feel like a kid inside again. But what struck me was that the series seemingly borrowed heavily from the fan works Dragon Ball Multiverse and both Toyotaro and Young Jijii's Dragon Ball AF.
As far as I remember, Toyotaro's AF had a plot about needing seven Super Saiyans to revive the Dragon Balls, which then would be used to summon Goku who had fused with Shenron and thus become a Super Saiyan 5. This is very similar to Super's plot about needing six Saiyans to summon the Super Saiyan God.
Then there is Xicor, the son of Goku and a Kaioshin, who is essentially an evil version of Goku. This is similar to Goku Black, who is a Kaioshin in Goku's body.
Young Jijii's AF had Frieza's son Ize, and Super introduced Frieza's other dimensional counterpart Frost.
And the multiverse idea and tournament is obviously similar to Dragon Ball Multiverse.
Have you noticed any other commonalities to fan works in Super, and what do you think of there being similarities?
As far as I remember, Toyotaro's AF had a plot about needing seven Super Saiyans to revive the Dragon Balls, which then would be used to summon Goku who had fused with Shenron and thus become a Super Saiyan 5. This is very similar to Super's plot about needing six Saiyans to summon the Super Saiyan God.
Then there is Xicor, the son of Goku and a Kaioshin, who is essentially an evil version of Goku. This is similar to Goku Black, who is a Kaioshin in Goku's body.
Young Jijii's AF had Frieza's son Ize, and Super introduced Frieza's other dimensional counterpart Frost.
And the multiverse idea and tournament is obviously similar to Dragon Ball Multiverse.
Have you noticed any other commonalities to fan works in Super, and what do you think of there being similarities?
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
It seems they took some inspiration from modern day shonen so they could've had some inspiration from fanwork especially since a few of the current artists were known dojinshi artists first. Almost every idea in DBS you could find some fanwork that used it before due to how many exist. Recolored transformations, an ancient transformation older than SSJ, Kaioshin stealing Goku's body, new set of DBs bigger than Porunga's, good guy Broly who doesn't enjoy fighting, genderbent Broly, returning characters out-training everyone because the author really liked them, Namekian fusion of almost their entire race, old Saiyans rewritten to be more sympathetic or influence over Goku, etc.
I think it's likely that they ran into the same problem as fanwork and ended up with similar ideas because there aren't many left to use. If someone were to write a fanfic without reading any others before, they'll likely come up with a few of the same ideas. Many of these ideas could've had inspiration from other franchises as well. Usually it comes down to execution although mileage may vary there since sometimes the execution isn't too different than what was done before.
I think it's likely that they ran into the same problem as fanwork and ended up with similar ideas because there aren't many left to use. If someone were to write a fanfic without reading any others before, they'll likely come up with a few of the same ideas. Many of these ideas could've had inspiration from other franchises as well. Usually it comes down to execution although mileage may vary there since sometimes the execution isn't too different than what was done before.
- Shorty GZ2
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 287
- Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:22 pm
- Location: Parts Unknown
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Pretty much
Tori himself said he took inspiration for Goku Black from Kamen Rider Black, while he also (hilariously) looks close to this random evil Goku Deviantart palette swap fanart:
Tori himself said he took inspiration for Goku Black from Kamen Rider Black, while he also (hilariously) looks close to this random evil Goku Deviantart palette swap fanart:
- SupremeKai25
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4055
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Goku Black > Any "Evil Goku" that ever appeared in any fanfic work. This is precisely because Black isn't an Evil Saiyan, but a Kai, which means that he is not just another generic pure evil conqueror warlord that has already been done a thousand times before.
Black, being a Supreme Kai who genuinely seeks peace in his own way, is way more original than Xicor or any other evil saiyan that has ever appeared in both Canon and fanarts.
One of the main praises Super writers get, deservingly so, is that Goku Black, while not very original "AS AN IDEA", is actually executed in a very unique and original way. By not having him be an evil saiyan in the first place, but a Supreme Kai who took a saiyan body.
In the end, if Black was an actual evil saiyan, his personality and goals would be entirely different. He is a popular villain because he is a misguided villain who genuinely wanted to bring peace, which is both original and creative for Dragon Ball. But obviously, if he was just another evil saiyan like from those fanfics, he would have generic evil motivations about conquest. Since 99% of the Saiyans only care about conquest and war, and even the few "good ones" like Bardock didn't really care about peace or order.
In the end, Toriyama hit the mark with Black (and Zamasu). People wanted a DB villain who is not evil just for the sake of being evil, and they finally got it with Black (and Zamasu). Meanwhile, I am willing to bet that Xicor doesn't have compelling motivations at all.
- The fanart's hair is more reddish than Black's;
- Black also has a somewhat more tanned skin tone than Goku;
- He is slimmer than Goku, while Goku is buffer;
- His eyes are grey in Rosé form, not blue;
- He has the Potara earring;
- And obviously his clothes are all different, his arms and necks are all covered up for example.
If Black's clothes were purple or pink, no one would make that connection with the fanart. But is there a problem with his clothes being black? Not really, it's just a general rule in fiction that the "villains" typically have darker colour... so it's just a coincidence that that fanart and the Canon Black both have dark colours.
Black, being a Supreme Kai who genuinely seeks peace in his own way, is way more original than Xicor or any other evil saiyan that has ever appeared in both Canon and fanarts.
One of the main praises Super writers get, deservingly so, is that Goku Black, while not very original "AS AN IDEA", is actually executed in a very unique and original way. By not having him be an evil saiyan in the first place, but a Supreme Kai who took a saiyan body.
In the end, if Black was an actual evil saiyan, his personality and goals would be entirely different. He is a popular villain because he is a misguided villain who genuinely wanted to bring peace, which is both original and creative for Dragon Ball. But obviously, if he was just another evil saiyan like from those fanfics, he would have generic evil motivations about conquest. Since 99% of the Saiyans only care about conquest and war, and even the few "good ones" like Bardock didn't really care about peace or order.
In the end, Toriyama hit the mark with Black (and Zamasu). People wanted a DB villain who is not evil just for the sake of being evil, and they finally got it with Black (and Zamasu). Meanwhile, I am willing to bet that Xicor doesn't have compelling motivations at all.
But can we acknowledge that it's obviously a coincidence? Even without mentioning the obvious, that Toriyama wouldn't browse random deviantart fanarts:Shorty GZ2 wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:35 pm Pretty much
Tori himself said he took inspiration for Goku Black from Kamen Rider Black, while he also (hilariously) looks close to this random evil Goku Deviantart palette swap fanart:
- The fanart's hair is more reddish than Black's;
- Black also has a somewhat more tanned skin tone than Goku;
- He is slimmer than Goku, while Goku is buffer;
- His eyes are grey in Rosé form, not blue;
- He has the Potara earring;
- And obviously his clothes are all different, his arms and necks are all covered up for example.
If Black's clothes were purple or pink, no one would make that connection with the fanart. But is there a problem with his clothes being black? Not really, it's just a general rule in fiction that the "villains" typically have darker colour... so it's just a coincidence that that fanart and the Canon Black both have dark colours.
- Shorty GZ2
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 287
- Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:22 pm
- Location: Parts Unknown
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
I never said it wasn't a coincidence, that's why I think it's so funny lmaoSupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:01 pmBut can we acknowledge that it's obviously a coincidence? Even without mentioning the obvious, that Toriyama wouldn't browse random deviantart fanarts:Shorty GZ2 wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:35 pm Pretty much
Tori himself said he took inspiration for Goku Black from Kamen Rider Black, while he also (hilariously) looks close to this random evil Goku Deviantart palette swap fanart:
- The fanart's hair is more reddish than Black's;
- Black also has a somewhat more tanned skin tone than Goku;
- He is slimmer than Goku, while Goku is buffer;
- His eyes are grey in Rosé form, not blue;
- He has the Potara earring;
- And obviously his clothes are all different, his arms and necks are all covered up for example.
If Black's clothes were purple or pink, no one would make that connection with the fanart. But is there a problem with his clothes being black? Not really, it's just a general rule in fiction that the "villains" typically have darker colour... so it's just a coincidence that that fanart and the Canon Black both have dark colours.
- SupremeKai25
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4055
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
I feel like it's important to note that it's an obvious coincidence, because I have seen far too many hateful memes that use that pic as "proof" that Super is garbage and nothing about it is original.Shorty GZ2 wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 5:13 pm I never said it wasn't a coincidence, that's why I think it's so funny lmao
- Hellspawn28
- Patreon Supporter
- Posts: 15192
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
- Location: Maryland, USA
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Toyotaro's AF manga is based on other old fan fic ideas on the web for years. I remember reading AF fan fictions with Xicor long before he did his fan manga in 2007. Even the West Kaioshin being a villain was taken from fan fiction as well. Also with DBM, you had multiverse fan fictions before it. It's a popular conpect in fiction.
She/Her
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Hmm which stories were those that had Xicor and an evil West Kaioshin before Toyble? The AF name and SSJ5 were created by the Spanish artist, Tablos, but I'm pretty sure those were the only ideas that other AFs used.Hellspawn28 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 8:24 pm Toyotaro's AF manga is based on other old fan fic ideas on the web for years. I remember reading AF fan fictions with Xicor long before he did his fan manga in 2007. Even the West Kaioshin being a villain was taken from fan fiction as well. Also with DBM, you had multiverse fan fictions before it. It's a popular conpect in fiction.
- Hellspawn28
- Patreon Supporter
- Posts: 15192
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
- Location: Maryland, USA
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
This old AF website had episode summaries of AF stuff from 15+ years ago. Heck, this old fan fic site even has Broly coming back to life and becoming a good guy.Skar wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 8:36 pmHmm which stories were those that had Xicor and an evil West Kaioshin before Toyble? The AF name and SSJ5 were created by the Spanish artist, Tablos, but I'm pretty sure those were the only ideas that other AFs used.Hellspawn28 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 8:24 pm Toyotaro's AF manga is based on other old fan fic ideas on the web for years. I remember reading AF fan fictions with Xicor long before he did his fan manga in 2007. Even the West Kaioshin being a villain was taken from fan fiction as well. Also with DBM, you had multiverse fan fictions before it. It's a popular conpect in fiction.
https://sites.google.com/site/newdragonballaf/xicorsaga
https://sites.google.com/site/newdragonballaf/movie1
Even My Favorite Games had their own AF story summary ages ago.
DBAF takes place around 120 years after the Frieza Saga. At this time Goku is off going from planet to planet training and he comes across one planet which looks absolutely beautiful, he goes onto this planet for training and finds that all the people there look perfect, and also the gravity is 1000 times that of earths so he figures its ideal for training for a little while. He also meets this stunningly beautiful woman there who try's to seduce Goku however Goku resists because of his heart belonging to Chi-chi, she senses this but makes love to him in his dreams. Shortly after Goku leaves the planet and as he leaves, the planet turns into silver and it disappears totally as well as everyone who inhabited it! Since the woman was a god and created a perfect illusion for Goku she also sensed how powerful he was, she wanted to have his baby and create the ultimate being. Anyway around 120 years later she gives birth to a child named Xicor who is naturally born as a super Saiyan 5 and is 1 year old, since he is half god and half Saiyan he is the ultimate being however he is pretty much useless as he needs to be trained by someone great, his father obviously, Goku, so he goes off in search of his real father to be trained by him and become the greatest warrior in the universe from which his mother wants him to be.
She/Her
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Ah ok I actually remember these old summaries but I think they were all inspired by Toyble's AF. He started his AF in the early 2000's (I forget if it was 2003 or 2006) and I'm pretty sure all these summaries came after that.Hellspawn28 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 2:53 pmThis old AF website had episode summaries of AF stuff from 15+ years ago. Heck, this old fan fic site even has Broly coming back to life and becoming a good guy.
- Hellspawn28
- Patreon Supporter
- Posts: 15192
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
- Location: Maryland, USA
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
His AF fan manga was first uploaded back in 2006 from what I was able to dig up on his old blog.
She/Her
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Ok well I wasn't asking if these came before it. I found it on Kanzenshuu's rumor guide and they mention Toyble was inspired by some rumors including the name Xicor. I'm not sure how that refutes the initial point since it's still borrowing from other fanwork though or did you mean something else by that post?Hellspawn28 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 7:00 pm His AF fan manga was first uploaded back in 2006 from what I was able to dig up on his old blog.
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Both names of Kale and Beat (could be the same guy from Dragon Ball Heroes; or "Beets" from "Dragon Ball Super: Broly"?) were written here in April 9th, 2010: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9496&p=364319
Just found out.
Just found out.
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Including memes and I'm here for it. I really do wonder if Toriyama-san keeps up with that stuff or if Toei/Jump/Dragon Room staffers share these memes/fan creations with him.Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Isn't Black Frieza remind you of this piece from January 2nd, 2015? https://www.deviantart.com/matiassoto/a ... -504197651
- Shorty GZ2
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 287
- Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:22 pm
- Location: Parts Unknown
Re: Dragon Ball Super "borrowing" from fan works?
Not really. Only similarities are (part of) the chest, gauntlets & anklets being different coloured. The colour palette and the head structure is completely different.