Super's growth in power was lackluster

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Geraldo
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Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Geraldo » Wed May 25, 2022 12:37 pm

They could have give us gradual and logical growth in power instead of a new hair dye &/ body recolouring transformations every saga.

1) Goku and Vegeta should have only attain Super Saiyan Blue during the climax of the Future Trunks Arc. Jiren was better as Mastered SSB tier opponent, and Ultra Instinct Sign could be introduced against moro, and Ultra Instinct could fit against Gas.

2) Gohan should have been stated to retain at least 40% of his Ultimate form's peak in power when Resurrection 'F' happened, and to reattain his prime during a battle during the Goku Black conflict.

3) Majin Buu must have been utilised all the way and shown to be as twice as string as he was against Kid Buu while in the Champa Arc.

4) Piccolo must have been shown surpassing Super Buu in the Tournament of Power.

5) The Human Z-Fighters, as of the moro conflict, should be at least four times stronger than what Frieza was on Namek at his final form.

6) Android 17 should be much weaker than Piccolo, as he does nothing. Also, Android 18 should be only slightly stronger than her prime as she didn't do anything that will place her above Majin Vegeta out of the blue.

7) Goten and modern Trunks, despite being created to milk more money from "uoh, ha!! Saiyans?!", should be 30% stronger than what they were in DBZ. They were written out for a reason, they lack anything of interest or pleasure to the writer and the audience.

8 ) The absurdity of Frieza's renewed strength could have been acceptable if he was revived during the year after the Cell Games alongside his father and spent ALL these years training with him to achieve his Golden Frieza form. Tagoma and Shisami should be as strong as Cell initially was - that's still a huge leap from Zarbon's tier; and Sorbet could have been stronger than them initially (to explain why they followed him around and did not overthrew him when he was bossing them around), but later easily surpassed and left in the Android 19 tier.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by PrinceVegetto » Wed May 25, 2022 5:10 pm

I agree with you. Although, to be fair, SSB was created before Super for Movie 15. But regardless, the new forms/power-ups haven't felt organic if we compare them to the franchise's predecessors (including GT).

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Geraldo » Wed May 25, 2022 11:41 pm

They could have delayed it while retelling the story in the anime format.

Also, (9) I believe that Future Trunks should have been roughly equal to Mystic/Ultimate Gohan from Z while Trunks is in Super Saiyan 2. There should not be any chance for him to hold off BOTH Goku Black and Zamasu on his own to buy Vegeta and Goku "some time of retreat in the present".

No "ikari" form toys can justify this bullcrap.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Goku9001 » Thu May 26, 2022 2:48 am

That's an interesting thought by proposing that Goku should have perfected Ultra Instinct during his battle with Gas. The narrative implications are there are actually pretty interesting. Whis' statement would make far more sense if it was in reference to Goku's Ultra Instinct Sign. He reveals that Goku had not mastered Ultra Instinct and uses far too much stamina which complements the weaknesses of Ultra Instinct Sign very well. It's always been odd to me that Goku mastered his Ultra Instinct yet he still has a bunch of weaknesses associated with it. Goku spending the Granola arc honing his own mastery of Ultra Instinct and applying it to his lower forms before perfecting Ultra Instinct as a representation of his own unique form of Ultra Instinct would be a more sensible narrative.

The caveat is how this undermines Goku learning how to apply UI to his lower forms, but that seems to be the direction Toyo is going with it.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by batistabus » Thu May 26, 2022 12:55 pm

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're getting at, but I actually think the progression is more drawn out than the original series. Goku attained Super Saiyan and had mastered it by the next arc. Gohan achieved SS2 the same arc he achieved the first level. Super Saiyan 3 came out of nowhere.

Blue, as well as God to a less extent, was developed from RoF through U6, Future Trunks, and into the ToP (for Vegeta). Whis started teaching the principals of MnG in RoF, and although Goku can now tap into the form at will (which he couldn't do in Broly and only did at the very end of Moro), he still hasn't mastered it.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Helios518 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:38 am

Tbh I really love how SSB was relevant for many arcs. If this was DBZ, they would've introduced a new SS transformation every arc. What I do dislike is that Beerus is a moving goal post of power. This means that 1) No threat would really harm U7 if Beerus is around 2) and Goku's powerups make it seem like he's still as close to Beerus as he did in BoG. Another thing I dislike is the unnecessary forms (Beast, Orange Piccolo, SSRage, Green Haired SS, Wrathful, Manga SSBlue Evolved) which could've been easily substituted for normal power jumps or different story changes.
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by BagetaSama » Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:00 pm

Geraldo wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 12:37 pm They could have give us gradual and logical growth in power instead of a new hair dye &/ body recolouring transformations every saga.
Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie were on their fifth consecutive arc of having SSB as their most powerful available transformation, Gohan didn't gain any new forms in those six arcs that didn't have in DBZ, neither did anyone else of the main cast. They didn't get any new transformations for the overwhelming majority of the series. This characterization of the power progression in the series is completely at odds with the facts of the matter.

This would be the equivalent of Goku still using SSJ for the entirety of the Buu arc as his strongest transformation, and then having two more arcs after that, where he only briefly gained SSJ2 in the first arc after the Buu arc, before losing access to it.(Ultra Instinct equivalent. ) But otherwise using SSJ for the conclusion of the 2nd arc removed from the Buu arc.
4) Piccolo must have been shown surpassing Super Buu in the Tournament of Power.

5) The Human Z-Fighters, as of the moro conflict, should be at least four times stronger than what Frieza was on Namek at his final form.
These two are completely arbitrary quantifications that have no tangible impact on the story whatsoever?

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Geraldo » Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:41 pm

BagetaSama wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:00 pm
Geraldo wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 12:37 pm They could have give us gradual and logical growth in power instead of a new hair dye &/ body recolouring transformations every saga.
Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie were on their fifth consecutive arc of having SSB as their most powerful available transformation, Gohan didn't gain any new forms in those six arcs that didn't have in DBZ, neither did anyone else of the main cast. They didn't get any new transformations for the overwhelming majority of the series. This characterization of the power progression in the series is completely at odds with the facts of the matter.

This would be the equivalent of Goku still using SSJ for the entirety of the Buu arc as his strongest transformation, and then having two more arcs after that, where he only briefly gained SSJ2 in the first arc after the Buu arc, before losing access to it.(Ultra Instinct equivalent. ) But otherwise using SSJ for the conclusion of the 2nd arc removed from the Buu arc.
4) Piccolo must have been shown surpassing Super Buu in the Tournament of Power.

5) The Human Z-Fighters, as of the moro conflict, should be at least four times stronger than what Frieza was on Namek at his final form.
These two are completely arbitrary quantifications that have no tangible impact on the story whatsoever?
I see that u live well with getting shitty hair/body color swappings every anime saga in Dragon Ball Super:
1. Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.

2. "Saiyan Beyond God" (an invisible transformation to use God ki to justify the selling of toys at the time), Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Frieza in Resurrection 'F'.

3. Kaioken stacked on SSB in the Champa Saga.

4. Super Saiyan Rosé, Perfected Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan "Rage" (the king of lame DBS color swappins) in the Future Trunks Saga.

5. True Golden Frieza, Ultra Instinct Sign and Ultra Instinct, God of Destruction mode Toppo (basically Ultra Ego) AND Super Saiyan Blue Evolution in the Tournament of Power.

6. Wrathful form for Broly.

7. Nowadays, we got Ultra Ego for Vegeta, "True" Ultra Instinct and the now revealed "Black Frieza" in the manga.

8. Gohan Beast, Potential Unlocked Piccolo and Orange Piccolo in DBS: Super Hero.

If u can live with being thought of a mindless fan who's here for flashy recolorings and buying them as toys, then admit it. Don't come picking fights with people who wish to get a high quality product.

And about Piccolo and the Human Z-Fighters - it's a Power Scaling thread, in case u haven't noticed. These feats do matter.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by BagetaSama » Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:00 pm

Geraldo wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:41 pm I see that u live well with getting shitty hair/body color swappings every anime saga in Dragon Ball Super:
Obviously I do not "live well" with it, I explained that I reject that this is the case in the first place, not that I like it. But you're clearly not acting in good faith if you're going to characterize it this way

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Cipher » Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:05 am

Geraldo wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:41 pm
BagetaSama wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:00 pm
Geraldo wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 12:37 pm They could have give us gradual and logical growth in power instead of a new hair dye &/ body recolouring transformations every saga.
Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie were on their fifth consecutive arc of having SSB as their most powerful available transformation, Gohan didn't gain any new forms in those six arcs that didn't have in DBZ, neither did anyone else of the main cast. They didn't get any new transformations for the overwhelming majority of the series. This characterization of the power progression in the series is completely at odds with the facts of the matter.

This would be the equivalent of Goku still using SSJ for the entirety of the Buu arc as his strongest transformation, and then having two more arcs after that, where he only briefly gained SSJ2 in the first arc after the Buu arc, before losing access to it.(Ultra Instinct equivalent. ) But otherwise using SSJ for the conclusion of the 2nd arc removed from the Buu arc.
4) Piccolo must have been shown surpassing Super Buu in the Tournament of Power.

5) The Human Z-Fighters, as of the moro conflict, should be at least four times stronger than what Frieza was on Namek at his final form.
These two are completely arbitrary quantifications that have no tangible impact on the story whatsoever?
I see that u live well with getting shitty hair/body color swappings every anime saga in Dragon Ball Super:
1. Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.

2. "Saiyan Beyond God" (an invisible transformation to use God ki to justify the selling of toys at the time), Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Frieza in Resurrection 'F'.

3. Kaioken stacked on SSB in the Champa Saga.

4. Super Saiyan Rosé, Perfected Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan "Rage" (the king of lame DBS color swappins) in the Future Trunks Saga.

5. True Golden Frieza, Ultra Instinct Sign and Ultra Instinct, God of Destruction mode Toppo (basically Ultra Ego) AND Super Saiyan Blue Evolution in the Tournament of Power.

6. Wrathful form for Broly.

7. Nowadays, we got Ultra Ego for Vegeta, "True" Ultra Instinct and the now revealed "Black Frieza" in the manga.

8. Gohan Beast, Potential Unlocked Piccolo and Orange Piccolo in DBS: Super Hero.

If u can live with being thought of a mindless fan who's here for flashy recolorings and buying them as toys, then admit it. Don't come picking fights with people who wish to get a high quality product.

And about Piccolo and the Human Z-Fighters - it's a Power Scaling thread, in case u haven't noticed. These feats do matter.
2-4 are variants of transformations that won’t read as distinct for anyone but “mindless fans” here for form-counting. Several among your list are transformations for villains—Saiyan or otherwise, it’s about as relevant as tossing all of Freeza, Cell or Boo’s onto a list of exhaustive transformations in the original DB.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Skar » Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:49 am

Geraldo wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:41 pmIf u can live with being thought of a mindless fan who's here for flashy recolorings and buying them as toys, then admit it. Don't come picking fights with people who wish to get a high quality product.
I don't buy merchandise and only a fan of one or two forms in DBS but the target audience probably doesn't mind them especially if it's the first time they've seen these types of transformations. I try to look on the bright side that they would become less frequent as they run out of different colors to use.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Geraldo » Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:46 pm

Cipher wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:05 am
Geraldo wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:41 pm
BagetaSama wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:00 pm
Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie were on their fifth consecutive arc of having SSB as their most powerful available transformation, Gohan didn't gain any new forms in those six arcs that didn't have in DBZ, neither did anyone else of the main cast. They didn't get any new transformations for the overwhelming majority of the series. This characterization of the power progression in the series is completely at odds with the facts of the matter.

This would be the equivalent of Goku still using SSJ for the entirety of the Buu arc as his strongest transformation, and then having two more arcs after that, where he only briefly gained SSJ2 in the first arc after the Buu arc, before losing access to it.(Ultra Instinct equivalent. ) But otherwise using SSJ for the conclusion of the 2nd arc removed from the Buu arc.



These two are completely arbitrary quantifications that have no tangible impact on the story whatsoever?
I see that u live well with getting shitty hair/body color swappings every anime saga in Dragon Ball Super:
1. Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.

2. "Saiyan Beyond God" (an invisible transformation to use God ki to justify the selling of toys at the time), Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Frieza in Resurrection 'F'.

3. Kaioken stacked on SSB in the Champa Saga.

4. Super Saiyan Rosé, Perfected Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan "Rage" (the king of lame DBS color swappins) in the Future Trunks Saga.

5. True Golden Frieza, Ultra Instinct Sign and Ultra Instinct, God of Destruction mode Toppo (basically Ultra Ego) AND Super Saiyan Blue Evolution in the Tournament of Power.

6. Wrathful form for Broly.

7. Nowadays, we got Ultra Ego for Vegeta, "True" Ultra Instinct and the now revealed "Black Frieza" in the manga.

8. Gohan Beast, Potential Unlocked Piccolo and Orange Piccolo in DBS: Super Hero.

If u can live with being thought of a mindless fan who's here for flashy recolorings and buying them as toys, then admit it. Don't come picking fights with people who wish to get a high quality product.

And about Piccolo and the Human Z-Fighters - it's a Power Scaling thread, in case u haven't noticed. These feats do matter.
2-4 are variants of transformations that won’t read as distinct for anyone but “mindless fans” here for form-counting. Several among your list are transformations for villains—Saiyan or otherwise, it’s about as relevant as tossing all of Freeza, Cell or Boo’s onto a list of exhaustive transformations in the original DB.
I had the hunch someone who hasn't read it throughly will say: "but those are villains' transformations you're counting; What about the forms of Frieza, Cell and Majin Buu from Z?"... Well, guess what, I was talking about lame color swappins and as far as I know Golden Frieza and Super Saiyan Rosé are such.
Skar wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:49 am
Geraldo wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:41 pmIf u can live with being thought of a mindless fan who's here for flashy recolorings and buying them as toys, then admit it. Don't come picking fights with people who wish to get a high quality product.
I don't buy merchandise and only a fan of one or two forms in DBS but the target audience probably doesn't mind them especially if it's the first time they've seen these types of transformations. I try to look on the bright side that they would become less frequent as they run out of different colors to use.
They better dismiss this while they're ahead. I don't need a "Super Saiyan Green" in my life.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Skar » Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:18 pm

Geraldo wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:46 pmThey better dismiss this while they're ahead. I don't need a "Super Saiyan Green" in my life.
LSSJ/Berserker is basically SSJ Green :P . It might depend on the artist because I remember it sometimes had only a green tint and sometimes completely green.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Thani » Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:17 pm

Skar wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:18 pm
Geraldo wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:46 pmThey better dismiss this while they're ahead. I don't need a "Super Saiyan Green" in my life.
LSSJ/Berserker is basically SSJ Green :P . It might depend on the artist because I remember it sometimes had only a green tint and sometimes completely green.
It was supposed to be just a green tint (Broly lacks the tint in his subsequent movies), but it's so iconic that they just color it green in most midia. So yeah, Super Saiyan Green is indeed a thing for a whiiiile now.

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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by BWri » Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:01 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:17 pm
Skar wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:18 pm
Geraldo wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:46 pmThey better dismiss this while they're ahead. I don't need a "Super Saiyan Green" in my life.
LSSJ/Berserker is basically SSJ Green :P . It might depend on the artist because I remember it sometimes had only a green tint and sometimes completely green.
It was supposed to be just a green tint (Broly lacks the tint in his subsequent movies), but it's so iconic that they just color it green in most midia. So yeah, Super Saiyan Green is indeed a thing for a whiiiile now.
As is SSJ purple now. Piccolo got to orange before the Saiyans did, which shocks me. That's just about everything unless we get very specific tones like lavender or Super Saiyan Periwinkle. Other than that, i'm waiting for SSJ Rainbow still or SSJ Aurora. Maybe SSJ Brown will be a thing.
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Grimlock » Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:20 pm

BWri wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:01 pmMaybe SSJ Brown will be a thing.
Image
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by BWri » Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:55 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:20 pm
BWri wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:01 pmMaybe SSJ Brown will be a thing.
Image
If that's the case, they can bring back these forms for Vegeta and Gogeta
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by nineko » Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:36 am

BWri wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:01 pmOther than that, i'm waiting for SSJ Rainbow
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:44 pm

The power growth up to the ToP was fine. Goku shot past the Hakaishin but not in a permanent way that left him room to grow. The following material, particularly the Manga, keeping him stuck nebulously under Beerus despite him completing and advancing UI is completely ridiculous.
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster

Post by Geraldo » Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:04 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:44 pm The power growth up to the ToP was fine.
That can be the case only if you ignore all the bad jumps ALL throughout of "Super". My OP is there, also the huge leap that was given to Piccolo (he has the wish "plot armor") and yet-again-rusty Gohan in the latest movie; going from somewhere in the realms of the moro arc (if not somehow rustier) to stronger than normal ki Super Saiyan Goku, Vegeta and Broly (who are all should be well above Granolah and Gas we just read in the manga).

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