Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:47 pm

It’s laughable to blame Toriyama for this when he basically shat out Broly and Superhero like they were nothing.

Toriyama is leaps and bounds beyond this level of writing even when he’s just fucking around.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jjbgood » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:04 pm

HeroR wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:05 am and there is nothing suggesting that Toyo will even time-skip to the timeframe to Super Hero.
It would be funny if they come back to earth after the events with Granolah and Gas, and find out more time has passed, because on that planet time works different (Like in Interstellar). And now its just before Super Hero, with grown up Trunks and Goten. So next they decide to get Broly on Beerus Planet...;)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:24 pm

Toriyama supervises this. While he's not writing it, he's allowing it to happen.

Toriyama would never leave UI hanging around back and forth until we reached this point. Which begs the question, does he even care? Is his involvement way overstated for obvious reasons? What's going on?

Even whatever he writes is heavily influenced by the Dragon Room. This isn't like the old days when whatever editor told him to re-write something based on their perception of the shonen audience. This is 2022, based on data to make money.

Toriyama isn't changing what he writes, he's being told what to write. Broly is popular, do that. Gohan is popular please increase his presence in the movie, etc...

So in the manga, I assume Toyotarõ is the one getting the "correct writing according to data suggestions". Maybe that's why Bardock is shoved in this story so poorly for no good reason.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:47 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:47 pm It’s laughable to blame Toriyama for this when he basically shat out Broly and Superhero like they were nothing.

Toriyama is leaps and bounds beyond this level of writing even when he’s just fucking around.
Sure, Toyotarou does the vast majority of the writing, but Toriyama is the one who supervises Toyotarou and thus is in a position to approve or reject his ideas for the story's direction.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:56 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:47 pm
TKA wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:47 pm It’s laughable to blame Toriyama for this when he basically shat out Broly and Superhero like they were nothing.

Toriyama is leaps and bounds beyond this level of writing even when he’s just fucking around.
Sure, Toyotarou does the vast majority of the writing, but Toriyama is the one who supervises Toyotarou and thus is in a position to approve or reject his ideas for the story's direction.
That honestly just tells us that Toriyama is a bad editor. If we look at how fans reacted to Broly and Super Hero, it's generally more positive than the manga, especially this latest arc. Which makes sense since Toriyama wants Toyo to do his own thing for the most part. Also doesn't help that V, the actual editor, doesn't do his job and just seems to okay everything because Toriyama says it's okay.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:34 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:47 pm It’s laughable to blame Toriyama for this when he basically shat out Broly and Superhero like they were nothing.

Toriyama is leaps and bounds beyond this level of writing even when he’s just fucking around.
So what is he doing here? There are a lot of things in the story that are his ideas, Toyotaro specifically said that Toriyama fleshed out what he pitched, and yet the guy is apparently not making any effort to oversee the story more closely or ''diligently'' like Iyoku said?

Not only that, but it doesn't look like Uchida is doing his job either. Toriyama and Uchida absolutely must be called out for what is currently happening. They also have their share of blame for this. The writing is not the only thing pacing for example should be one of the things to work on, unless that padding is their intention for whatever reason (stretching DB content for more time).

Also lol at acting like Broly and Super Hero are masterpieces, story-wise

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:50 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:47 pm Sure, Toyotarou does the vast majority of the writing, but Toriyama is the one who supervises Toyotarou and thus is in a position to approve or reject his ideas for the story's direction.
Toriyama has made it clear in more than a few interviews now that he wants to let Toyotaro make his own shit. Toriyama is only there to offer a helping hand. We can infer that Toriyama's preference for these low stakes manga arcs that most people will never see is to let Toyotaro steer the ship while he offers navigational advice.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:36 pm

Some one correct me if i'm wrong, but, wasn't Toriyama supposedly vocally unhappy with how the super anime turn out? yet he sees the manga in this state and he gives no fucks? is this good for him?

Idk, maybe as long as it looks good that's enough for him. :|

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Seekeroftruth » Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:57 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:24 am Vegeta: “Keep damaging me! It’ll only make me stronger!!”
5 minutes later…
Vegeta: “HAHA! I’ve finally taken enough damage to overpower y-“ *passes out*

Fuck sake man.
Maybe Toyo likes the abridge series

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:53 pm

What’s “going on here” is that the story is fine (though I’m sympathetic to comments that the pacing is a little weird) and volume sales have been steady. In the top 50 despite being a V-Jump series and having no current anime. Not a huge difference, but the last few volumes have actually seen higher opening domestic numbers than 14-15.

You’re all trying to solve a production mystery that doesn’t exist?

Personal gripes are personal gripes, but when it comes to the point where an entire page of posts is centered around wondering why Toriyama and Uchida aren’t rushing to save a ship that isn’t sinking...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:32 am

One of my personal gripes with this arc however, which felt even more apparent at the end of this chapter, is that Elec is dragging Gas through the mud despite the stakes not really being that high for Elec high to begin with. Elec aims to usurp Frieza's control over the universe. Goku and Vegeta both made it clear that they have no affiliation with Frieza and are privy to what Frieza had done to the Saiyan race. Goku even makes it clear that he's disinterested in the whole conflict. Elec dragging Gas through the mud and blatantly forcing the life out of Gas to pursue a goal that inherently has no obstacle doesn't really make much sense to me. It would have been more in-character for Elec to reassess the situation given the elaborate plan that drove this entire arc into motion. But instead, it's a non-stop repeat of Elec pushing Gas far beyond his body's limits for a purpose that isn't really fully realized. Unless this somehow relates to his master plan, I'm not seeing the reason for Elec going so far as to kill Gas.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:20 am

Whew, forgot this place existed for 2 days when I read the chapter on release. Not gonna reiterate what I enjoyably discussed with that other guy for pages on end or partake in more pre-existing sour pedantry/fartsniffing, so I'll just say I'm fine with the directions the plot/character developments here were (or well, have been since the past 3-4 months) heading if somewhat predictable or even controversial (e.g. UI progression being a flat circle, though was funny to see Vegeta acknowledging Goku bastardising UI) though some of my guesses were a bit off like on the nature of Gas's boomerfication. Plus, there was stuff I wasn't a huge fan of like Vegeta blabbering about evolving UE yet fumbling the same way (we never really did get his own answer despite the chapter title, unless it was "resolve" which failed him) or Granolah the Survivor spending his 3rd (or 6th) month inactive out of his eponymous arc (but I'm still predicting he'll be back for the final clash/shot w/ Vegeta to cap off the Whis/Beerus "UI vs Hakai" competition at the start in a cheesy "wow they both won" sort of way, unless Ultra Gogeta shows up 😵). Art as usual was pretty nice (paneling was generally fine too both with instances of standouts & "could've cut it down a bit"), Toyo continuing his recent better-late-than-never trend of double page panel action spreads & even one raw single pager of Goku/Gas's cross counter. Overall, another "I am mostly positive about/didn't mind it, but arc + pacing has been dragging and I'm ready to move on from Gas (who likely/hopefully will be biting the dust in a month or 2 at best) & Heeters (Elec continues to carry, though his confidence in Gas's abilities seems to be seeping into frustration as he can't get the job done, as if his plan's working on borrowed time) onto other newer stuff" chapter (which basically reflects how I feel on the arc as is rn) for me this month. Side note, the section of Iyoku's latest V-Jump interview where he roundaboutedly talks about the DBS manga alongside Super Hero was hysterical, I hope more ppl start cornering him like this and when he had to answer that question at NYCC last year 😂. And another side note, how are you guys still discoursing around about how this arc was conceptualised & carried out? It's generally been clear and transparent how it came about & which story/character elements primarily came from who, much moreso than the last arc where there was around a grand total of 1 (or 2-3 if you're generous) interview going into any depth about its production, let alone Moro himself.
OLKv3 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:50 pm Goku is trapped in the Ultra Instinct loop until Toriyama finally has him fully master it in animation. So manga Goku will continue to master UI, only to suck at it, then master it again, only to suck at it, and repeat
The trick is that Toriyama will never ever acknowledge UI happened or will cosign to featuring it either in wording or visuals in his movies 🤯 And this is the other pickable poision between it and Heroes having Goku get KO'd, go into UI, beat up the enemy, then finish them off (if it's a flunky) or drop out at the last second (if it's the main baddie), & afterwards forget how to do it/decide against using it in favour of fusing with Vegeta into Gogeta Blue (Evolution) instead 🥴

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:50 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:20 am Whew, forgot this place existed for 2 days when I read the chapter on release. Not gonna reiterate what I enjoyably discussed with that other guy for pages on end or partake in more pre-existing sour pedantry/fartsniffing, so I'll just say I'm fine with the directions the plot/character developments here were (or well, have been since the past 3-4 months) heading if somewhat predictable or even controversial (e.g. UI progression being a flat circle, though was funny to see Vegeta acknowledging Goku bastardising UI) though some of my guesses were a bit off like on the nature of Gas's boomerfication. Plus, there was stuff I wasn't a huge fan of like Vegeta blabbering about evolving UE yet fumbling the same way (we never really did get his own answer despite the chapter title, unless it was "resolve" which failed him) or Granolah the Survivor spending his 3rd (or 6th) month inactive out of his eponymous arc (but I'm still predicting he'll be back for the final clash/shot w/ Vegeta to cap off the Whis/Beerus "UI vs Hakai" competition at the start in a cheesy "wow they both won" sort of way, unless Ultra Gogeta shows up 😵). Art as usual was pretty nice (paneling was generally fine too both with instances of standouts & "could've cut it down a bit"), Toyo continuing his recent better-late-than-never trend of double page panel action spreads & even one raw single pager of Goku/Gas's cross counter. Overall, another "I am mostly positive about/didn't mind it, but arc + pacing has been dragging and I'm ready to move on from Gas (who likely/hopefully will be biting the dust in a month or 2 at best) & Heeters (Elec continues to carry, though his confidence in Gas's abilities seems to be seeping into frustration as he can't get the job done, as if his plan's working on borrowed time) onto other newer stuff" chapter (which basically reflects how I feel on the arc as is rn) for me this month. Side note, the section of Iyoku's latest V-Jump interview where he roundaboutedly talks about the DBS manga alongside Super Hero was hysterical, I hope more ppl start cornering him like this and when he had to answer that question at NYCC last year 😂. And another side note, how are you guys still discoursing around about how this arc was conceptualised & carried out? It's generally been clear and transparent how it came about & which story/character elements primarily came from who, much moreso than the last arc where there was around a grand total of 1 (or 2-3 if you're generous) interview going into any depth about its production, let alone Moro himself.
OLKv3 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:50 pm Goku is trapped in the Ultra Instinct loop until Toriyama finally has him fully master it in animation. So manga Goku will continue to master UI, only to suck at it, then master it again, only to suck at it, and repeat
The trick is that Toriyama will never ever acknowledge UI happened or will cosign to featuring it either in wording or visuals in his movies 🤯 And this is the other pickable poision between it and Heroes having Goku get KO'd, go into UI, beat up the enemy, then finish them off (if it's a flunky) or drop out at the last second (if it's the main baddie), & afterwards forget how to do it/decide against using it in favour of fusing with Vegeta into Gogeta Blue (Evolution) instead 🥴
The big different is that Heroes isn't meant to be serious. Heroes is basically Dragon Ball's official fan-fic that gives us stuff like Full Powered Super Saiyan 3 Rose, SSEB Gogeta, Golden Metal Cooler, and whatever Hearts is. So Goku going through a UI cycle doesn't stand out that much, in fact he rarely takes out the main villain since Heroes seems to only want the Fusion characters to look cool.

Toyo is writing a serious story and he has both Goku and Vegeta stuck on a hamster wheel. And what's ignoring is that Goku's zig-zag on UI could have been avoided if he didn't make him 'perfect' UI last arc and just have Sign win, or better yet have Vegeta kill Moro using the special technique he learned.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:21 am

YamiGoku wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:36 pm Some one correct me if i'm wrong, but, wasn't Toriyama supposedly vocally unhappy with how the super anime turn out?
Only the movie retelling episodes I think. And thinking about it, not sure if it was even real in the first place, it's rare for things like this to be publicised, when usually all we hear are compliments.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ten na nGael » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:09 am

The fight choreography was pretty good. I still think Gas isn't interesting enough to sustain a fight this long, but the drag might be a result of reading it month to month. It has made me curious what was the contemporary opinion in Japan about various parts of the Buu arc. The page count of this arc is currently about the same as the Fat Buu arc (460-483) and similarly little happens in it (less probably).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:05 am

Cipher wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:53 pm Personal gripes are personal gripes, but when it comes to the point where an entire page of posts is centered around wondering why Toriyama and Uchida aren’t rushing to save a ship that isn’t sinking...
I resent that remark because I am on this page.

Anyway, while I’m generally against using popularity and sales as a barometer for quality (if we do that, then those shitty Marvel movies are the greatest movies mankind has produced), noting the sales is correct to do here. It’s what the suits care about, and I can’t see Toriyama being the type to want to take the reins from another creator or being invested enough to meticulously comb over every detail Toyotaro writes.

It’s also always cringe when fandoms devote so much time and effort in searching for specific production people to blame for shit. You can never know until someone involved in production directly says something.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:11 am

TKA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:05 am Anyway, while I’m generally against using popularity and sales as a barometer for quality (if we do that, then those shitty Marvel movies are the greatest movies mankind has produced), noting the sales is correct to do here.
As am I. I'd rather just talk about the fiction as fiction. It was a specific response/reality check to a long thread of people assuming some sort of objective issue in need of addressing by various parties when ... in fact no such problem that would call for their fixes exists.

If you don't like it, that's one thing, but by all accounts Super's chugging right along.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:37 am

TKA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:05 amIt’s also always cringe when fandoms devote so much time and effort in searching for specific production people to blame for shit. You can never know until someone involved in production directly says something.
It's a manga so it narrows it down to the artist themselves or his editor(s). I don't think they're searching for anyone else since those are the people who have mentioned their involvement in interviews. There's definitely more "padding" this arc since this battle might end up being longest manga battle in the franchise. I just hope whoever made that decision had reasons that won't apply to future arcs. It doesn't really matter who's responsible because it's been the same people working on it since the beginning and are going to likely continue working on it until it ends.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:01 pm

Xeogran wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:21 am
YamiGoku wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:36 pm Some one correct me if i'm wrong, but, wasn't Toriyama supposedly vocally unhappy with how the super anime turn out?
Only the movie retelling episodes I think. And thinking about it, not sure if it was even real in the first place, it's rare for things like this to be publicised, when usually all we hear are compliments.
It is real. Toriyama said it back in 2016:

"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone."

But yes, it appears he was referring to the execution of the movie adaptations, pre-Universe 6 arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:02 pm

At the end of the day, all three parties (Toyotaro, Toriyama, and Uchida) are responsible for the work they're involved in. I name-drop Toyotaro often because a lot of, but not all of, my personal gripes with this arc relate to its presentation, an aspect that Toyotaro happens to be at the forefront of. But I don't think it matters who exactly oversaw what — the manga is what it is, regardless of whether some person is or isn't enjoying it. If it's generating sales, good for them!

All I know is that the next arc will make or break the manga for me. I haven't genuinely fully enjoyed a story arc in Super since 2018, more or less, and four years is an awfully big time investment for something that stopped enthusing me a long time ago. If the current state of the manga's writing reflects its future, I'll take my leave from readership. Three strikes and I'm out.
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