Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:56 pm

Yeah, changing the subject a bit to the actual story, since one of the biggest complaints about this section of the arc is Gas as the big bad, I'm curious what direction you would take the character to make him as compelling as Granolah?

I don't think his stoic personality is necessarily a problem, although Hit and Jiren are mostly thought of as boring for that. But maybe if at the beginning of the arc we also had brief flashbacks about his backstory and a little more insight into his motivations and what drives him, maybe we could be more sympathetic to him at this stage of the arc (a lot of things were shown just after him have been established as the final boss). He is directly tied to the central conflict of the arc but still feels like a side character or not like the final boss that people imagine, and I think part of that is due to the fact that so much focus has been given to Elec (which is not a problem in its own right, but we could have seen more of Gas too)
Cipher wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:03 pm And it contains some of Vegeta’s best moments in either series, which I couldn’t have seen coming from anywhere in Super.

On another topic: For those out off by the UI developments: Did you see a particular path forward with stoic Goku? He hardly talks during the action against Jiren and Moro. For me, the developments here fix that meta issue (dull Goku), while also reinforcing existing themes of the series and character realization/progression. I think the use of a lower form to do so at this point is pretty immaterial in that context, in terms of anything feeling like “backsliding.”
Yes, I think I've expressed a few times here that Granolah arc Vegeta is one of my favorite versions of the character (not quite there with Freeza arc Vegeta, but among the best) and I enjoyed almost every moment involving him. His dynamic with Granolah is one of the best parts of this story and I pretty much enjoyed all the stuff involving him and Beerus. Which is why I was disappointed with the way he was used in this chapter, and I hope whatever role he plays at the end of this arc will give us some insight as to his ''answer'' ( also looking forward to see his closure with Granolah, and the direction he's going to take regarding Ultra Ego and its future developments).

As for Ultra Instinct, I don't mind the idea that Goku, being at his best when he's enjoying a fight and getting caught up in the competition and challenge of it, must find a way to reconcile that with Ultra Instinct to forge his own version of the technique. in order to take the best out of it (since being totally calm and tranquil is the angel's way, as Beerus says at the beginning of this arc). And I also think it would be tricky to have Goku act in a totally opposite way to what he's supposed to be for the rest of the series in tense/climactic moments. But I think the execution was clumsy enough not to convey these things in the best light. We should have had a few lines explaining why this approaching is working now and why it didn't work in Moro arc, with the same form being used, as this conflicts with the nature of the technique. And I also think it's unavoidable to factor the Sign/Omen form into the equation, as its inclusion feels out of place and also clashes with what we've seen in the Moro arc.

In short, I don't mind if that's what they really want to do, but I don't like the way it's being done.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:30 pm

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:22 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:56 pm I don't think his stoic personality is necessarily a problem, although Hit and Jiren are mostly thought of as boring for that. But maybe if at the beginning of the arc we also had brief flashbacks about his backstory and a little more insight into his motivations and what drives him, maybe we could be more sympathetic to him at this stage of the arc (a lot of things were shown just after him have been established as the final boss). He is directly tied to the central conflict of the arc but still feels like a side character or not like the final boss that people imagine, and I think part of that is due to the fact that so much focus has been given to Elec (which is not a problem in its own right, but we could have seen more of Gas too)
Hindsight is 20/20, but more Gas earlier on would have helped—in particular more light shed on his relationship with Granolah.

I think people are having trouble connecting him to the otherwise personal-feeling stakes of the story. There’s enough there (he’s thrown his life away for something stupid just like Granolah, and all the parties have some connection to one another), but it’s mostly sandwiched into the climax, so it doesn’t start off with that weight.

Really, we could have done with a bit more on his past and internality during the six chapters of setup, if I’m being prescriptive. As it stands, all we know heading into the climax is that he wants to be stronger/relied on. We don’t learn that his hang-ups relates directly to Granolah and the Saiyans until the fight’s already underway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:34 pm

Cipher wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:03 pm
On another topic: For those out off by the UI developments: Did you see a particular path forward with stoic Goku? He hardly talks during the action against Jiren and Moro. For me, the developments here fix that meta issue (dull Goku), while also reinforcing existing themes of the series and character realization/progression. I think the use of a lower form to do so at this point is pretty immaterial in that context, in terms of anything feeling like “backsliding.”
See, I have to disagree with this. When Goku used UI I never saw him as 'dull'. I saw him as focus and taking in the Bruce Lee's view of 'becoming like water'. Which was a nice change from Goku screaming. Granted, the anime did go back to a raging Goku against Jiren when Jiren decided to shoot the audience, but it worked for me because UI was never about being emotionless and Goku did calm down after he punched Jiren. He was so calm that once he had Jiren on the ground in defeat, he tried to talk to him and hesitated to ring him out.

But this view is heavily colored by me studying marital arts and the principle behind UI that I get annoyed when people boils it down to 'Goku is dull and he isn't happy'. Which isn't what the base of UI is all about. Like you're not going to tell a marathon runner who is in the moment that they're not happy or they're not enjoying themselves because they're not emoting.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:12 am

Cipher wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:03 pm On another topic: For those out off by the UI developments: Did you see a particular path forward with stoic Goku? He hardly talks during the action against Jiren and Moro. For me, the developments here fix that meta issue (dull Goku), while also reinforcing existing themes of the series and character realization/progression. I think the use of a lower form to do so at this point is pretty immaterial in that context, in terms of anything feeling like “backsliding.”
I think it was their fault for making Ultra Instinct excessively stoic.

The technique by itself was always very simple and perfectly fitting of Goku’s carefree nature - the body moves on its own, improving reaction times.

Then, they had to make it so that Goku must always be absolutely calm to reach the state. Which is fine, but now they are backpedaling as they realized that it led to a boring/much less talkative Goku.

In principle, there’s no reason why Goku shouldn’t be able to go mad, or have any other emotion, while his body is able to avoid (almost) any threat coming at him without him needing to be focused or on-guard.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:19 am

Since Angels are always in UI, it's easy to make Goku as natural as possible once he dominates the form.

I thought for sure Goku was going to master UI in this arc, with the talk about levels and such. Really hard to predict what's going to happen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:11 am

All I wanted from UI is Goku having a casual conversation as someone is trying to hit him and he's dodging without even reacting to it and still continuing his convo
Something like how he embarrassed Butta and Jeice, but even more over the top. Have him being Goku but reacting without thinking about it. Doesn't need to be stoic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:24 am

OLKv3 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:11 am All I wanted from UI is Goku having a casual conversation as someone is trying to hit him and he's dodging without even reacting to it and still continuing his convo
Something like how he embarrassed Butta and Jeice, but even more over the top. Have him being Goku but reacting without thinking about it. Doesn't need to be stoic.
Yeah exactly. If anything Ultra Instinct should be more like this. When he fought Broly he had to stop him first before talking him down.

Even with Granolah, he talked only during downtimes. It would have been cool if he talked while avoiding his punches.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:13 am

I feel like the above is probably where we’re going, and I agree that it’d be fun use of it, but the series decided to give us the “must maintain no emotion” roadblock first (again, going all the way back to the ToP, it’s been established that it’s a no-emotion form for Goku, in practice), which is fine. Gives Goku a chance to come around on realizing how he ticks, tidied into a (ridiculous) martial-arts narrative.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:08 am

I don't think "calm" has to mean "so stoic that Goku displays no emotion whatsoever", and outside of the Tournament of Power, I don't feel that was ever particularly the case for the silver-haired form. Its main principle being opposite to Super Saiyan (calm vs. anger) was an interesting way to distinguish it from other forms and show Goku's character in a different light, just as Super Saiyan originally did. I'd rather have that than just another hair color.

Besides, the point of his training this arc was learning to use Ultra Instinct in lower forms while saving the silver-haired UI only for situations that warranted it. Even this chapter seems to preserve that to some degree, with Goku only using Sign because it maintains his emotional state at the moment while acknowledging that UI proper is still his strongest form.

Story-wise, I don't envy Toyotaro here. Ultra Instinct is an endgame enlightenment transformation in a series that doesn't appear to be at its endgame. It was probably inevitable that things would get messy, especially now that Goku is able to use it at will.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:22 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:08 am I don't think "calm" has to mean "so stoic that Goku displays no emotion whatsoever", and outside of the Tournament of Power, I don't feel that was ever particularly the case for the silver-haired form. Its main principle being opposite to Super Saiyan (calm vs. anger) was an interesting way to distinguish it from other forms and show Goku's character in a different light, just as Super Saiyan originally did. I'd rather have that than just another hair color.

Besides, the point of his training this arc was learning to use Ultra Instinct in lower forms while saving the silver-haired UI only for situations that warranted it. Even this chapter seems to preserve that to some degree, with Goku only using Sign because it maintains his emotional state at the moment while acknowledging that UI proper is still his strongest form.

Story-wise, I don't envy Toyotaro here. Ultra Instinct is an endgame enlightenment transformation in a series that doesn't appear to be at its endgame. It was probably inevitable that things would get messy, especially now that Goku is able to use it at will.
I would have preferred it if Goku temporarily lost access to the silver form due to his emotional state at the moment. Having Omen feel stronger than UI is poor writing after what happened with Moro.

Also, the fact that the silver form feels endgame is no excuse. Super Saiyan also felt endgame, yet androids made a mockery of it.

We accepted that Granolah was stronger than UI. Heck, Whis too is vastly stronger than Goku is in UI, so we know there’s still a lot of room for him to improve.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:49 am

emperior wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:22 am I would have preferred it if Goku temporarily lost access to the silver form due to his emotional state at the moment. Having Omen feel stronger than UI is poor writing after what happened with Moro.
I agree. That was one of the biggest issues I'd raised with this chapter, but what's done is done.
emperior wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:22 am Also, the fact that the silver form feels endgame is no excuse. Super Saiyan also felt endgame, yet androids made a mockery of it.

We accepted that Granolah was stronger than UI. Heck, Whis too is vastly stronger than Goku is in UI, so we know there’s still a lot of room for him to improve.
Big asterisks accompany those statements.

Granolah himself said he beat UI only because its accuracy drops over time. Whis is better than Goku because his own UI is more accurate. This isn't "character X is straightforwardly stronger than character Y" stuff, and therein lies the dilemma — there were always going to be workarounds for a form that was said to avoid and overcome any obstacle.

It comes with the territory, but at least it sets writing limitations to encourage more creative solutions. Whether the manga takes full advantage of that is anyone's guess.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:58 am

I agree that this arc has some explaining to do.

That saiyaboost, now called Bardock Boost, was sort of a headache for many readers. I, personally, had no problems with it, but I can see why it could've been confusing to some, even though it was something Nappa was doing 15 years ago. I think it kinda works without a side explanation, but to be fair, I had been reading about the yuuki, shuuki interviews recently, but what about the poor reader who's not that into that type of ancillary material? How is that guy supposed to put things together when all they say is Bardock just wants to win?

Same for Sign trumping all forms, which didn’t even get a peep from anybody. If KK came back vs Cell, instead of using SS, I would’ve liked an explanation, too. Even though I might find the answer myself, I shouldn’t have to be decoding what the characters are doing, the author’s job is to properly convey that.
I'm headcanon out of it by believing it's Sign + Bardock Boost >>> Silver UI, but this is just something I came up with and I wouldn’t even know if it’s true, it could be something completely different. I have to assume his saiyaboost is bridging the gap between Sign and not only UI, but UE and Gas… which is a lot, and sure, we can discuss how his UI is not as great because so and so, but that’s all from our heads.

About the characters, I'm ok with how Gas has been portrayed, but Elecc is getting boring to me by now. He's playing the same note for the last 15 chapters, I've seen him talking some sense to Gas like 3 times now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:59 am

This arc feels distinct in its emphasis on being dramatic and "cool". The transformations are cool, Granolah is cool, Bardock is cool, Gas is cool, the non-stop fighting is cool, and Toyotaro's art looks cool. It's able to balance excessive coolness with Toriyama's touch; it avoids feeling edgy or contrived. I much prefer this over Toei's original revenge-against-the-Saiyans stories. I certainly wouldn't want every arc to be like this, and I get why it doesn't do much for some older fans, but I'm having fun with it.

Aside from that, the focus on mindset, as well as the thread of Goku and Vegeta's progression, are particularly interesting.

The catalyst of Dragon Balls that can make someone the strongest in the universe is something I actually like. The Dragon Balls feel powerful again, and not just like a series of legal caveats that need to be maintained to prevent the story from breaking. It feels like a pure return to roots in that sense.

I'm tempted to say that the worst thing about this arc the constant fighting, but I actually think it's that the arc is nearly humorless. You could argue that more humor would undermine the tension, and while it would certainly change the vibe...I think it could definitely use more gags. The constant fighting would be more palatable with more laughs. The fighting on Cereal could even be left as-is while a tangentially-related B plot with other characters provides the humor.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:07 pm

I'm still confused by what Toyotaro meant by having Omen return. Last arc, he was angrier after Meerus died and Moro was threatening the Earth but Goku was still able to use UI. I'm not sure if there's a reason to bring back Omen since he only fought with it for a few pages before Gas had to sacrifice more of his lifeforce. Maybe next chapter goes into more detail.

On the topic of Moro vs Granolah, I enjoyed both but for different reasons. I wouldn't say they rank among the best DB stories but enough to keep me looking forward to the next chapter each month. I had some occasional criticism but only major issue I had was the padding. It's the only reason I questioned whose decision it was because it reminded me of anime filler which is usually the studio's decision. It's either so the anime doesn't catch up to the manga which isn't the case here or just keep the story running until the next one is available.

Granolah feels like it's a story intended for a film or much shorter arc than almost the length of a later arc from the original manga. It has a similar setup to Broly with the beginning providing some backstory and character's meeting then a long battle taking up the second half. It's only an issue for first time readers though. For those fans bingereading it after it's completed, it would only be an extra 30 minutes to an hour of reading so wouldn't be a big deal to them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:31 pm

More emphasis should've been on how Goku takes hits after he loses his cool and gets surprised. I thought that's where the arc was going when he lost to Granola (he got ko'd the moment he lost his cool), but none of that was in the battle with Gas. Gas was easily blocking his attacks while he was calm, and landing hits while he was calm. He only started losing his cool when Vegeta's hakai ball got reflected. No wonder people are confused at how suddenly Omen is able to hurt Gas and tank attacks. We're being told how Goku is struggling to use silver hair, but not shown

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:43 pm

I feel the Granola arc would benefit greatly from a clipping. After Gas showed up everything started to get so messy, people taking turns to fight the same guy, fighting without much narrative purpose besides just fighting. Gas is just there to fight, he is not in any rush, apparently. If it were a novel, the movie adaptation would cut out many of the last 10 chapters. Hopefully, the anime will.

The Moro arc would probably benefit from trimming off some stuff, mainly the Earthlings fighting or Buu's involvement that led nowhere IIRC, but I think it's ok for the most part. And yes, taking place on Earth while being the greatest threat U7 has ever seen, including GT, Z, videogames and even other franchises makes absolutely no sense. Fine, you don't want to leave U7? then just use another planet, I dunno.

About stuff I still don't fully understand or like, is Goku fighting Gas with UI+SSB and giving him a harder time than with the silver UI and aided by UE Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:04 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:43 pmThe Moro arc would probably benefit from trimming off some stuff, mainly the Earthlings fighting or Buu's involvement that led nowhere IIRC, but I think it's ok for the most part. And yes, taking place on Earth while being the greatest threat U7 has ever seen, including GT, Z, videogames and even other franchises makes absolutely no sense. Fine, you don't want to leave U7? then just use another planet, I dunno.
I guess it's similar to BoG and RoF because their antagonists threatened the Earth but only the Z fighters were aware. That's the only way to still claim it's all happening during peacetime at least from the perspective of the general population. Piccolo, Saiyans, Cell, and Buu were broadcasted on the news and most of the population knew about them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:37 am

This might be conjecture, but from what Elec said in the prev chapter, could he really mean that since Perfected UI & UE (+ double red eyes Granolah) came before Gas, any use of those forms as they were vs Gas would be firmly fruitless? I did think that Elec's wish making Gas auto-surpass a superior foe was how this could be circumvented, but now that it's been disproven & the wish stays firm as a more general/all-encompassing thing, it could serve as an explanation for how even then, UE's exponential growth did come close to shaking Gas and why Goku had to switch to Sign to make him barely stronger than him.

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Either way, old shrivelled up Gas using up the rest of his life for power is probably now stronger than fired-up Signku at least in next chapter. So super-Sign (esp with it still retaining a timelimit from instability-induced stamina drain) may be bunk next month & he'll need Granolah (hopefully it's been more than 20 mins for Monaito-heal) & Vegeta (ran out of gas, but is still conscious & may still be able to go UE again once he stands up) to help him out. Or he could re-turn into silver UI (which at this point the new endgame seems to be making it like anime UI, or like SS vs Freeza on Namek), or propose Ultra Gogeta fusion, who knows.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:43 pm I feel the Granola arc would benefit greatly from a clipping. After Gas showed up everything started to get so messy, people taking turns to fight the same guy, fighting without much narrative purpose besides just fighting. Gas is just there to fight, he is not in any rush, apparently. If it were a novel, the movie adaptation would cut out many of the last 10 chapters. Hopefully, the anime will.

The Moro arc would probably benefit from trimming off some stuff, mainly the Earthlings fighting or Buu's involvement that led nowhere IIRC, but I think it's ok for the most part. And yes, taking place on Earth while being the greatest threat U7 has ever seen, including GT, Z, videogames and even other franchises makes absolutely no sense. Fine, you don't want to leave U7? then just use another planet, I dunno.

About stuff I still don't fully understand or like, is Goku fighting Gas with UI+SSB and giving him a harder time than with the silver UI and aided by UE Vegeta.
I think while the "fighting for the sake of fighting" or "arc has given me no reason to care about fighting" criticisms in the arc's latter half are mostly overblown, pacing would've well improved if the Gas vs Granolah & Bardock vs Gas duo chapters each could've been merged into single chapters (esp the former). And well, though Gas has been basically so far above everyone since the wish that he has no issue fending them off/can take his time toying w/ them, he's moved to kill the heroes in every chapter/battle he's been in, so I wouldn't say he's in no rush.

Broly, Moro and Super Hero do take some willing suspension of disbelief that basically no one on Earth would've felt or remembered any sort of shakiness, impact or stamina drainage from stuff like earthquakes, weather/climate changes, volcanic eruptions, skies going dark, huge city level explosions, etc. In Broly's case, there's also that no member of the Dragon Team besides Piccolo even noticed the fight/offered any intervention, while SH's case doesn't esp dwell on whatever aftermath there would be to the Cell Max battle/Red Pharma going under lmao

I'm not sure if we read the same fight, but it's pretty clear throughout the 2 chapters they fought that Gas was washing SSB+UI Goku & dominant in near every direct exchange (Goku only just annoys/humiliates him w/ his teleportation shenanigans).
batistabus wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:59 am I'm tempted to say that the worst thing about this arc the constant fighting, but I actually think it's that the arc is nearly humorless. You could argue that more humor would undermine the tension, and while it would certainly change the vibe...I think it could definitely use more gags. The constant fighting would be more palatable with more laughs. The fighting on Cereal could even be left as-is while a tangentially-related B plot with other characters provides the humor.
I have to agree. Most of the humour from the setup chapters dry up as soon as the Cereal fighting starts, and most we get from there is Goku taking the piss out of Gas in chapter 81 (which was 4 months ago (!!)). Broly & Super Hero kinda do the same thing, but it works moreso within the movies timespan, and in Super Hero, Krillin (via his usual coward antics) & Gotenks (ft straight-man Piccolo) get transported in to the climax to provide levity.
OLKv3 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:31 pm More emphasis should've been on how Goku takes hits after he loses his cool and gets surprised. I thought that's where the arc was going when he lost to Granola (he got ko'd the moment he lost his cool), but none of that was in the battle with Gas. Gas was easily blocking his attacks while he was calm, and landing hits while he was calm. He only started losing his cool when Vegeta's hakai ball got reflected. No wonder people are confused at how suddenly Omen is able to hurt Gas and tank attacks. We're being told how Goku is struggling to use silver hair, but not shown
We don't see much of UI in action post-Granolah KO, closest prior to the UI/UE vs Gas fight is him kinda using it in Blue to sorta dodge Granolah's insta-disabling vital targeting thrusts in chap 76 (kinda like how Sign Goku does in chap 41 before he unlocks silver UI), & not-really in his 1v1 with Gas in chaps 81-82. In the handicap match with Gas though, he's mostly on the offense & does go on the defensive/get hit when he gets surprised/irritated whenever Vegeta gets knocked away.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:01 am

So, I was thinking, in the moro arc Goku went:

UI Omen ---> UI Mastered (Angel version)


What about if the reason Goku is using Omen again is not just because its what fits it more right now, but because Toyo is planning a new form, coming from Omen:


UI Omen -----> UI Mastered (Goku Version)

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