Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jamiljamtheman » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:04 pm

I saw a lot of comments from people explaining how little sense Goku’s new use of UI Omen makes in this chapter. While I agree that it doesn’t seem to line up with anything Ultra Instinct at all, Goku’s dialogue makes it seem like it’s a new technique/transformation somewhat independent of the UI line. When he talks about Ultra Instinct being calm, is he always talking about only the mastered form? Maybe he meant all it’s uses that he’s used—omen, mastered, and as a technique with SSG and SSB. Granted, whatever he’s doing this chapter looks exactly like UI Omen from a visual standpoint. Is there a chance that this isn’t any version of UI at all? Did anyone else catch onto this with Goku’s dialogue or am I just overthinking it?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:09 pm

Cipher wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:11 am
TKA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:05 am Anyway, while I’m generally against using popularity and sales as a barometer for quality (if we do that, then those shitty Marvel movies are the greatest movies mankind has produced), noting the sales is correct to do here.
As am I. I'd rather just talk about the fiction as fiction. It was a specific response/reality check to a long thread of people assuming some sort of objective issue in need of addressing by various parties when ... in fact no such problem that would call for their fixes exists.

If you don't like it, that's one thing, but by all accounts Super's chugging right along.
I think the thing is regardless of sells, the general feeling from those who still follow the manga is that this arc is a big step down from Moro. Despite my issues with Moro and it being kinda divisive within the fandom, it's generally viewed favorably. Outside of UE and Granaloh to an extent, people are soured on this arc and I think Super Hero only made it worse because that movie focused on the forgotten side-characters while this arc is stuck on Goku and Vegeta and they don't seem to be making much progress on their new forms. Not helping that people think Gas is more boring than Jiren who despite his divisive personality was carried by being a Broly-style powerhouse that Super was lacking at the time.

Overall, a lot of people who like the manga and the beginning of this arc aren't liking the current direction.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:02 pm

Well, while I've already expressed my displeasure with this chapter, echoing other people's complaints (I liked most of the chapters that were criticized here btw, but I disliked the directions taken in the current chapter, no doubt), I also agree that this sub (and just in general, DB fans), tend to overreact the things that happen in this manga, acting like it's the end of the world whenever something considered bad happens. You certainly didn't see the same level of enthusiasm when good or great chapters were dropping.

Anyway, I think the direction Toyo was going with Ultra Instinct in this arc was fine. Although you could feel that there was some kind of change of plans (as Toyo himself said), these were developments that were expected or that made sense. Different levels of accuracy with the technique and Goku being at the bottom of the ladder? Well, expected. It seems kind of obvious to assume that the angels' UI is much more refined than Goku's, and that's ignoring any power difference.

Goku needing to learn to use the technique naturally without depending on transformations for it? Yeah, it makes sense, and it's an interesting development. Even Goku needing to develop his "own style" (which later in the arc became developing his own Ultra Instinct) was fine and made sense. My issue really is with the execution in this chapter, because I don't feel it was the best direction or that it's in line with what we know of the UI, although you can see where Toyo is going with this.

Which sucks because I actually thought Ultra Instinct was always a technique that Toyo portrayed well, both conceptually and in combat. Contrary to what became the UI in the anime (essentially Super Saiyan Silver with Goku getting rage boosts and just brute forcing his way through the fight against Jiren), Toyo has always clearly portrayed how different Ultra Instinct was from Super Saiyan and how getting angry would only clash with the mindset needed to achieve the technique. And those traits were perceptive during fights too and how Goku was portrayed, with the best example probably being the fight against Moro, although ToP was pretty good with that too. In short, I really hope the next chapters make this whole thing make more sense, because for now if just feels like backtracking compared to the last arc

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:48 pm

Funny that the end gol of UI is similar to anime UI with rage boosts and all, and Goku being Goku with silver hair.
Toei was right all along, 5 years in advance, too. :P

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:57 pm

I don't see nobody being crass about the manga, people are just saying what they dislike. This isn't like when the anime was airing and people were rude to Toyotarõ and everything affiliated.. This thread is way better now, even if the quality is dropping.

We were all compliments when this arc started, it had the potential to be good.
Personally the Bardock direction turned me off. With the impact it had in the story, it was nothing more than fan-service.

UE was excellent, Vegeta branching off into his own path was something I wanted since forever.
Granolah and the direction of the Heeters seemed to be different but - so far - it hasn't amount to more than Dragon Balls abuse.

I just hoped for better because Toyotarõ had some good ideas and executions before the Moro arc.

Finally it irritates me how every single chapter has - at least - a panel copied from the original manga. At this points it isn't just an homage but a problem that Toyotarõ needs to grow out off.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:58 pm

Vegeta fought with exceptional resolve. No lecture's to Gas like he did against Granolah. No talk about destiny making him lose for the sins of his people. Nope he fought just like Barrocks did, with a determination to win no matter what.

Goku's UI sign is the best answer right now. Since it is unstable and he can use Saiyan emotions in that state. Not making use of UI to it's fullest like he did against Moro. Still it doesn't change the fact that his silver haired form is his strongest but he can not keep his heart calm in that state. Since he is a Saiyan and unlike Whis who can keep his heart calm, being different from a Saiyan as an angel.

Elec is using Gas [we all knew this] and now Gas has once again powered up. What will you do Goku time?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:21 pm

This arc is bad, but it’s still leaps and bounds beyond that Moro shit. At lest this arc has a coherent theme to it. That’s more than I can say about Moro.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:41 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:21 pm This arc is bad, but it’s still leaps and bounds beyond that Moro shit. At lest this arc has a coherent theme to it. That’s more than I can say about Moro.
I have disliked this arc from the start, and I continue to dislike it more with each subsequent chapter*. Meanwhile, I greatly enjoyed the Moro arc... not only in comparison to this arc, but just as a general DB arc.

Last arc, I liked the characters. I liked their designs. I (already) liked the Galactic Patrol. I liked the dialog. I liked the pacing (more often than not). I liked the B plots. I liked the resolution(s).

This arc, I don't like the characters. I don't like their designs. I don't like the new groups. I don't like the pacing. I don't like... is there even really a B plot (do the flashbacks count? I don't like those.)? I dislike the resolution(s). I can understand the attachment to and discourse around "themes", but that does nothing for me personally. It just doesn't connect or resonate with me in any way.

(*I don't feel I'm a particularly good critic, and don't feel that anyone needs to have my opinions on the arc forced upon them in regular fashion; thus, my lack of ever talking about it here or elsewhere. Why contribute to the pile?)

And yet, I feel the need to contribute to the pile here, because the "FUCK SHIT DOG PISS THIS SUCKS" discourse drives me up the goddamn wall and it's a chore to read month in and month out. It's exhausting. Even as someone who largely agrees. Absolutely, completely, goddamn, fucking hell, exhausting. I don't have any of it on my social media, because I don't follow those kinds of people, but I don't really have a choice here.

I'm really, really, really tired folks. Is there something new to bring to the table?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:35 pm

The chapter was very mid. The fights keep being very boring and/or dragged out needlessly.

Goku’s Omen being superior to his “mastered” Ultra Instinct makes very little sense, as if in the original manga he went back to Kaioken after Super Saiyan, or to SS1 after SS2…

A better explanation would be needed. Was it done just for the Bardock similarity?

I miss the days where Toyotaro’s chapters were packed with stuff happening which actually mattered. Ever since Moro, they have reduced the manga to a super slow pace thing which really doesn’t do it any justice. And Toyotaro is not talented/creative/powerful enough to make it better, but it’s not entirely his fault, in my opinion.

There’s not much more to say except that I cannot wait for the “true climax” to happen, as Moro’s was quite damn good (and here it might be shaping to be similar, I think right now we are basically at post-Yardrat Vegeta vs Moro).

Compared to Moro, this arc has been much better in my opinion. The beginning was a lot stronger, and they both have a very boring middle act. Again, Moro’s finale was spectacular in my opinion so let’s hope this one will be too!
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:04 pm

LightBing wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:57 pm I don't see nobody being crass about the manga, people are just saying what they dislike. This isn't like when the anime was airing and people were rude to Toyotarõ and everything affiliated.. This thread is way better now, even if the quality is dropping.
I agree with this.

I've said all this before, but my harshness comes from a place of sincerity. I thought the Super manga's first three arcs were great, found the Moro arc to be generally okay despite its issues, and thought this arc was off to a cautiously decent start. To repeat what I said a few threads ago: I never come into these chapters ready to shit on them, but I will try to articulate why I felt they were, or weren't, worth my time after reading them. There's nothing wrong with that.

I think everyone deserves a platform to express their opinions (positive or negative) as long as people aren't throwing personally directed potshots at each other for having one. It's not like I'm trying to force any specific viewpoint or reading on people. I wasn't shitting on Toyotaro and his manga from the start, and for those that were, I have to wonder what they're even expecting if they're still engaging with it.

For what it's worth, I sympathize with anyone who might look at all this negativity and think it's exhausting to read. Trust me, y'all, I'm just as frustrated that I'm not enjoying it right now.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:34 pm

So, I don't exactly mind Sign being used here that much, and I can see why he would be doing better in it than with the perfected UI. That being said, this is purely me guessing, and it wasn't showcased AT ALL beforehand.

So, to me, Sign is supposedly doing better because it's unstable. It's not BETTER than the perfected UI, like at all, but it's unstability allows Goku to make use of his emotions to power up. The reason Goku is doing better against Gas is, rather than UIS becoming stronger, Goku being unable to keep his heart calm was making the perfected UI weaker, so to speak. So right now, Sign is a better option for Goku, since his unstable heart is keeping him from using the best out of UI.

But again, that's all speculation, Toyo never portrayed it that way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by wertham » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:17 pm

Same here, I really want the manga to stay good, and I enjoyed most of it, but the pacing now is being awful. I really hope it gets better and brings a good conclusion to this arc. Toyotaro can do better.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:26 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:41 pmsnip
It comes down to what you expect from late-stage Dragonball. I can do without the fighting and the inflated fake drama about the fate of the world or whatever.

That makes Moro a tough sell for me from the get-go. If Moro is the scourge of the universe threatening to eat up all existence, why didn’t anyone mention him at End of Z? Obviously it’s because that was 30-odd years before Moro was even conceptualized, but therein lies the issue.

Don’t try to sell an arc on being so important, so grandiose, despite nothing in it ultimately mattering. The best arcs in Super for me are the ones where the stakes are nothing: Battle of Gods (debatable), Res F, Champa, Broly and (what I’ve read about) Superhero.

This arc has a leg up on the Moro arc by not asking me to think the fate of the universe is at stake right off the jump. Keeping the story small and personal is infinitely better. This arc has a leg up on Moro for having a clear theme. This arc has a leg up on Moro for having more compelling leads.

If Moro is your bag, then that’s okay, man. I just don’t see its Toei movie-like structure or presentation as particularly worthy of Toriyama’s Dragonball, or the Dragonball meant to be a sequel to Toriyama’s.

Jaco’s cool tho.

So while I have a strong distaste for this arc, I consider it far preferable to Moro because it has some semblance of being a story with a point to it. A poorly-told, meandering, repetitive story, but that’s still a story. I suppose.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:42 pm

As mentioned when the spoilers got out, I'm not against Goku going with a more personal variation of MnG, even if he uses Sign with it, but this execution is just poor.
What they are going for is fine and evident, but we just know because Whis' comments and Vegeta's WnG, is not explained in the same chapter, so it reads by itself as nonsensical or related to Burdack instead. It can still be properly explained, but some things Toyotaro leaves with no explanation and others he likes to reiterate over and over like with Vegeta about WnG, so who knows, we'll just have to wait, but for now, yeah.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:49 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:48 pm Funny that the end gol of UI is similar to anime UI with rage boosts and all, and Goku being Goku with silver hair.
Toei was right all along, 5 years in advance, too. :P
And even the anime had a happy accident where Goku explodes out of UI right after the rage boost, leading to a, with some handwaving, conclusion that the rage destabilized UI. Now the manga has it that extreme emotions are the way to go

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by wertham » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:22 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:26 pm It comes down to what you expect from late-stage Dragonball. I can do without the fighting and the inflated fake drama about the fate of the world or whatever.

That makes Moro a tough sell for me from the get-go. If Moro is the scourge of the universe threatening to eat up all existence, why didn’t anyone mention him at End of Z? Obviously it’s because that was 30-odd years before Moro was even conceptualized, but therein lies the issue.

Don’t try to sell an arc on being so important, so grandiose, despite nothing in it ultimately mattering. The best arcs in Super for me are the ones where the stakes are nothing: Battle of Gods (debatable), Res F, Champa, Broly and (what I’ve read about) Superhero.
Yeah, I also had that problem with Moro! I thought that Toriyama was smart enough in his previous arcs to put the stakes on some side-characters or worlds that weren't mentioned in End of Z so the readers/viewers might be worried or at least curious about what will happen. For example, in the Champa arc, what was at stake was Earth's placement on U6 or U7, and neither outcome would have contradicted EoZ. In Future Trunks arc, anything could have happened to Trunks and his timeline, and in the Tournament of Power, any universe could've been erased forever without contradicting the end of the original manga. Then Toyo did his first solo arc and gave us a U7 threat that even ends up on Earth, contradicting the "ten years of peace" thing. The Granola arc thankfully doesn't have this problem: we don't know what will happen to Granola or the Heeters, so at least we get that kind of suspense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:12 pm

I like the more personal, smaller stakes on paper, but the exectution?

The Moro arc may not be the best, it dragged, had the stupid senzu moment, but, still had a lot of neat moments, characters interactions, and (IMO) stick the landing, This arc has a lot less of the neat moments, has the broken dragon balls spam, the stupid Bardock wish, the UI transformation nonsense, and i'm willing to bet that it will not stick the landing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:24 pm

For me, you can't stick a landing if you were never flying in the first place. The journey matters more than the finale. No matter how this arc ends, it can't be good for me because getting there was no good. Same applies to the Moro arc as far as I'm concerned.

It's crazy how the end of the tournament of power didn't get a full chapter, split between itself and the opening of a new arc, but then that arc meandered almost as much as this one. Was it really necessary to rush?

But I digress. I've said all I needed to on this. Don't mean to be a downer for those who enjoy both these arcs.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:03 pm

If we’re playing the Moro-comparison game (why not? at least we’re talking about the story)...

I still enjoy the Moro arc well enough, but it’s probably my least favorite storyline in DB, as it plays very much like a safe highlight reel of it. (Fun enough, but just ... “more DB” at its most transparently “more DB,” and most reminiscent of the Cell arc in particular, in which for large stretches character motivations take a backseat to superheroing around). I’m fine with Super getting that out of its system once, as a fairly to-formula supervillain plot was obviously something fans had been craving, but there’s nothing new there. My main issue with it, I suppose, is how predictable it all feels. The Earthlings vs. goons chapters telegraph that they’re just buying time for a Goku/Vegeta arrival, and don’t have any real storytelling meat for their own cast (those were among the only months I fell behind on the series—by around four chapters at one point), and even the climactic beats are fairly telegraphed. With everyone in full supervillain and superhero mode too, there isn’t much to turn over or grab onto. Within the climax I also had my pacing issues, as chapters rarely organize themselves around increasingly tense cliffhangers (I think the Seven-Three absorption is the only one to end the heroes worse off without a clear strategy in sight?), and, again, the solutions could usually be seen coming the previous month.

With this arc, yeah, some of the pacing is a little odd, along with the structure—there are chapters that might have been combined—and Monaito’s thematic resolution speech might just be the worst-delivered thematic cap-off in all of DB—but at least it really feels like its creators have thrown in behind its weirdness, mess and all. I can’t say any of it has felt predictable—aside from Gas’ wish and some of the themes/resolutions surrounding emotion and UI, and that’s more narrative promise. I appreciate that it’s organized around the characters, that everyone (even Gas) is at least vaguely sympathetic (minus Elec and maybe Bardock/the Saiyans, who still all suck), and that it’s playing with conventions about what DB should be to give us a final villain who’s essentially just his group’s heavy and produce a small martial-arts story that just happens to have DB’s cosmic scale. More than anything, I appreciate that I don’t know where it’s going month to month, aand continuously feel compelled to check in—rewarded with, at the very least, some of Super‘s best action when I do. This is a story I want to read the latest chapter of as soon as it comes out. Not for nothing, limited as the cast is, I appreciate that this arc is also the only time in Super (!) we’ve gotten a strongest vs. strongest fight involving neither Goku nor Vegeta. And it contains some of Vegeta’s best moments in either series, which I couldn’t have seen coming from anywhere in Super.

While I’m certainly more a champion of the pacing of the TV-adjacent arcs, this is much more in line content-wise with what I enjoyed in and expected from Super pre-Moro—smaller scale, tighter focus, a willingness to play around with characters and lore. I can forgive pacing wonkiness in a series if it feels like it’s trying for something and its creators are behind it, and so I continue to enjoy the arc, even though it’s far from perfect. I’ll take it over Moro any day, and it bumps up against the Future Trunks arc (much better paced but also less high highs, I think) in terms of third for me in the series overall. The Moro arc felt so reverent of DB, and this doesn’t—while still being sincere to the characters.

On another topic: For those out off by the UI developments: Did you see a particular path forward with stoic Goku? He hardly talks during the action against Jiren and Moro. For me, the developments here fix that meta issue (dull Goku), while also reinforcing existing themes of the series and character realization/progression. I think the use of a lower form to do so at this point is pretty immaterial in that context, in terms of anything feeling like “backsliding.”
Last edited by Cipher on Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TBMx » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:19 pm

Ultra Ego is exactly as bad as I thought it would be. Vegeta going his own way has put him exactly where I thought he would be. I will say it 'suits him' after all. :lol:

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